Killhammer Strategy: Heavy

[Warp Angel]

You're building your army and you've suddenly started looking at the heavy support slot. If you're like me, you start to drool, anticipating all the wondrous things you can do with those slots.

 

But you have to ask yourself a serious question. Why are you taking ANY heavy support options? Your elites are generally more survivable and better in hand to hand, fast attack moves faster and sometimes even carries more firepower. You can get many of the same options (at least as a vanilla player) in other places in your army list (Land Raiders as transports for example).

 

Hunters, Killers, Defenders, Cleaners, are all things that can be done as well or better by other units in your army. Heavy choices tend to have your best Firebases. Devastator Squads, Exorcists, Thunderfires, Predators... these things can sit, shoot, and pump out a ton of shots. So the need for a Firebase is quickly and easily fulfilled by the heavy support choice.

 

Less obvious is the close combat capability of the heavy support slots. Defilers, Soul Grinders, Dreadnaughts, etc, can all provide some serious close combat capability to an army that would otherwise lack it. This isn't a role though, it's a unit focus.

 

And unit focus is what is probably the most important choice to make when looking at a heavy support option. Look at the rest of your army. What is it good at? Where is it weak? Heavy support can often fill that niche.

 

But you need to be careful when choosing your heavy support choices, to make sure you're getting the best bang for your buck. Many heavy support options are one dimensional and lack any real S.

 

I'm going to make a lot of people disagree with me here, but there are some less optimal heavy support choices.

 

Vindicators, and Whirlwinds.

 

Both are completely single purpose. Both are relatively unreliable, being single shot models. Neither has any transport capability. Both are useless in close combat. That said, they are not BAD choices. They both do something that nothing else in your army list can. And if you need or want that in your army, it's the only place to get it. But you lack any real flexibility in how they are used, and they make your army predictable. These units lack any significant S.

 

There are better heavy support choices out there, but ones that still aren't great. They have some S, but sacrifice something else in the process - whether it's D or K to get it.

 

Thunderfires, Dreadnaughts, Exorcists, Devastator/Havoc Squads, and Predators.

 

The Predator and Exorcist, like the Vindi and Whirlwind, are pretty single purpose, but are more reliable. They lack S, and sometimes K, but produce wounds/penetrations more consistently due to volume of fire. Dreadnaughts in a heavy support choice Have got some S, especially when equipped with a drop pod, but they themselves are compromises of design. Volume of fire/CC attacks and weapons range all have to be balanced out. It tends to leave each particular dreadnaught's role predictable... and because of their low speed.... avoidable. Thunderfires have great firepower, at the expense of being a glass cannon. They have flexibility in the type of ammunition that they fire, and having a techmarine left alive to support a Defender after the gun is gone is flexible. But it's D is weak. Very weak. Heavy weapon squads are an interesting balance between firepower, durability, and mobility. They, and the Thunderfire, are the only heavy support choices that can't move and still shoot something at range. In small (cheap) squads, they lack D2 and can be killed off in a relatively few shots. In larger squads, you have a lot of points dedicated to not much more than standing there. CC capability is below average, and doesn't really add any flexibility to your army.

 

Then you've got the balanced heavy support choices, that allow you a lot of flexibility and have high inherent S.

 

Land Raiders, Obliterators, and Soul Grinders

 

Land Raiders have the ultimate S for a non-walker heavy support. They can transport anything. All of their configurations are reasonably good anti-tank and reasonably good anti-infantry. They can fire better on the move than just about any loyalist unit currently in the game. This is on top of their ridiculously high D. Obliterators and Soul Grinders are interesting. They are better combatants in hand to hand than dreadnaughts, and without sacrificing the ability to be a Firebase. This is pretty unique, and gives you a lot of flexibility in how you use them, allowing you to adjust tactics against an enemy army as needed.

 

So, at this point, you're thinking, "I am so not giving up my Vindicators. Killhammer is wrong and sucks."

 

But you're wrong. Heavy support is the place in your army where the most important rule of Killhammer needs to be applied.

 

You are the general. You know your army and playstyle better than anyone else.

 

You need to examine your army, it's capabilities, and look at the heavy support and examine the Killhammer of the entire army. How does the heavy support fit the gaps in everything else you've put together? Does it's focus on anti-infantry relieve a weakness you've got? Does it's long range provide you with something that you're otherwise missing? Does it give you close combat support that you can't get anywhere else?

 

The perfect example of how a less optimal Heavy Support choice is the right choice is when talking about Sisters of Battle. The Exorcist does something that no other unit in their army does: Shoot at long range. Grey Knights lack inexpensive ranged anti-armor except on Dreadnaughts, and have to retool terminators to be good against it in hand to hand. Sometimes that heavy support choice FITS what your army needs.

 

I guess the lesson here is don't get hung up on Killhammering individual heavy support choices for your army. Be the general. Assess the Situation, and make the Subjective judgement as to which unit actually fits your needs the best.

 

And by doing so, you've actually Killhammered the best unit for your army. (K1 - K2) + (D1 + D2) + S

[minigun762]

Interesting. My take on your piece is that heavies are best used to fill in gaps in your army and compensate for any weakness that might be present due to the units you've picked from the Fast/Elite/Troop squads.

 

A few things that I'd want to point out there.

1) I feel like you underestimate the power of the Vindicator. In Killhammer lingo, it has a wonderfully high K1 (S10 pie plate), a moderate K2 (24" range), and a moderate D1 (AV13 front) and normally a moderate D2 (if its in range). This already makes it a valued item, but its high S value comes from the fact that it can engage any kind of unit out there, as like the Land Raider, it always has the right gun for the job.

 

2) I would lump the Dreadnought with the Defiler/Soul Grinder and seperate it from the Obliterator. The main issue people have with the Walkers is their flexibility. Some view it as wasted potentai, being both an assault and shooting unit while others see options. The Obliterator, while it can assault, is viewed almost entirely as a shooting unit. The choice being what to shoot each turn. In fact the Obliterator would match up well with the Vindicator as it has very similar Killhammer values but with an increased K2 and D1.

[Warp Angel]

Your take is pretty much what I intended.

 

If you want something great in CC, your HQ and Elites are equal to or better than anything heavy.

If you want mobile firepower, fast attack often has what you need.

 

The Vindicator is where it is because it's predictable in its use (shoot the most obvious thing within 24", because it's good against just about anything). You and I are going to continue to disagree with the K of a Vindicator, because I believe that any 1 shot weapon has an inherently lower value than one with multiple shots, even if that one shot is a 5" template. The single, effective weapon means that it's D2 isn't great either, since taking out the Demolisher Cannon means that it's effectively a weaponless rhino with AV13 on the front. It's no more durable in hand to hand than a rhino either.

 

But disagreement here is okay, since HOW the Vindicator is used will mitigate the D weaknesses to some extent, redundancy (in the form of more Vindicators) will make up for the K1 problems of a single unit, and there are armys (like my Thousand Sons) where it's almost a required piece of equipment, because it does the limited things it does so well.

 

There are no obvious choices with heavy support, and S means a whole lot more here than in any other part of your list. The general and the rest of the army is the big determining factor on whether or not any particular choice, or choices is better.

[Nardman]

I really enjoy the tone of constructive discussion that these Killhammer articles take on. I find that it's a great system for evaluating battlefield roles for your chosen units, without completely bashing any specific units. Well done Warp Angel!

[minigun762]

I really enjoy the tone of constructive discussion that these Killhammer articles take on. I find that it's a great system for evaluating battlefield roles for your chosen units, without completely bashing any specific units. Well done Warp Angel!

 

I agree, Warp Angel has done a very good job.

Though I will admit for my own sanity, I tend to look at the simplfied version of things which is:

K + D + S

K = overall killiness

D = overall survivability

S = situational usefulness

 

Basically I've bastardized all of his hard work ;)

[Marlow]

But you have to ask yourself a serious question. Why are you taking ANY heavy support options? Your elites are generally more survivable and better in hand to hand, fast attack moves faster and sometimes even carries more firepower.

That is generally my view on Heavy Support. Other than the Land Raider I almost never use them. My predator is a substitute for when I have run out of Elite and can not fit another Dreadnaught into the list and my fast attack is filled with Trikes.

 

Thunderfire looks interesting more for getting a Techmarine without using an Elite slot, athough its 'ignore cover' rounds look useful against hordes...

[Warp Angel]

I really enjoy the tone of constructive discussion that these Killhammer articles take on. I find that it's a great system for evaluating battlefield roles for your chosen units, without completely bashing any specific units. Well done Warp Angel!

 

I agree, Warp Angel has done a very good job.

Though I will admit for my own sanity, I tend to look at the simplfied version of things which is:

K + D + S

K = overall killiness

D = overall survivability

S = situational usefulness

 

Basically I've bastardized all of his hard work :tu:

 

Which works pretty much the same as the complicated formula. Although there are very good reasons to think about K2 and D2 as subsets. They're the only things that you can manipulate in your favor or minimize in your opponent's army.

 

But that's an article that has yet to be written.

 

The K+D+S works just fine.

[Ryjak]

Having used 2 Vindicator Tanks for years, I have to agree with Warp Angel's assessment on them. Looking at the Killhammer formula:

 

K: Very high, perhaps in the top 5 in the game. I've Demolished Monoliths and Land Raiders with ease, both I expect rate fairly well from a Killhammer perspective. I've also blown entire units away in one shot.

K2: Almost as high as K, probably in the top 10. A 24" range, one shot Ordinance weapon is hard to employ, let alone hit anything worthwhile (IE Large Vehicles/units without cover) Most of the time, I seem to miss completely on my opening shot.

D: About average, I suppose. If you can keep that AV 13 facing your opponents, they're going to have a tough time with you, but...

D2: Almost as high as D. It's pretty much guaranteed that if you take a shot with the Demolisher, you're going to get flanked and take some shots to your weak side armor... or worse, get assaulted. D2 is further increased as a Weapon Destroyed result is an effective kill, and an Immobilzed result in usually a 75% Kill. As far as I'm concerned, it should have AV 12 on the sides; the Siege Shield should give it a front AV 14.

S: This is what really makes or breaks the Vindicator. You have to understand the strengths and limitations to use it to any effect.

 

I wrote a Tactica on it years ago that's probably still around here. If you take one Vindicator, you're best off using it as an offensive shield, projecting a 24" bubble nothing wants to enter until it's dead... or just overload the shield by flanking it. In this case, terrain isn't your friend, because it blocks the effects of your shield. Another option for one Vindicator is to use it purely as an AV13 Wall for something else in your army, usually a Dreadnought or a Rhino. With the Dreadnought, you're basically providing a mobile 24" shield as well as mobile LOS-blocking Wall; with the Rhino, you're just providing an AV13 Wall for the first few turns, then setting up the 24" Shield. In theory, this is the fastest way to reduce their K2 and increase their S... at least, it's what I ended up doing with them.

 

If you take two, though, S increases significantly for each. You can create 2 overlapping shields and make it VERY dangerous to flank one, or make a bigger AV13 Wall. If you're planning to camp with two Vindicators, you might as well spend some more points and get a boosted Tech-Marine to repair the inevitable Weapon Destroyed and Immobilzed result. This will decrease the D2 for both a decent ammount, and might increase your army's overall S, but those points are probably better spent on raising your K instead.

 

I wish I could use a Tech-marine on a bike to repair my Vindicators when I use them as a Wall, but the cost of a Tech-Marine/MoTF with a Bike and Servo-Harness is almost the same cost as a Vindicator. If he's there mostly to repair, a pure S function, my points are better off somewhere else... and if your goal is to repair, you really should get a bunch of Servitors to guarantee you actually repair something, and quickly. Maybe you could hijack someone's ride, like a Devestator Squad's Rhino, or a Land Raider you weren't planning to use as a Transport.

[jeffersonian000]

There’s a way of calculating correlation of forces in the real world with armored vehicles that works just as well in games: while 1 tank is effectively 1 tank, 2 tanks are effectively 4 tanks. Meaning that, two tanks supporting each other will have an impact disproportionate to its actual numbers.

 

In game, we see this when we take two dreadnoughts rather than one, or as the case may be with two or more vindicators. The overall effect is greater; better survivability coupled with a greater amount of firepower that can be directed over a greater amount of battlefront.

 

SJ

[Koremu]

Vindicator + Siege Shield = Permanent Cover Save.

 

And your opponent will still shoot at it, even though he wastes half his shots!

[Ryjak]

Vindicator + Siege Shield = Permanent Cover Save.

Man, if only that were true!

 

Siege Shield: (pg. 80, 5th Edition Space Marine Codex)

Many Vindicators are equipped with an enormous bulldozer blade, allowing them to shoulder aside rubble and other battlefield detritus without risk.

 

A Vindicator with a siege shield automatically passes dangerous terrain tests.

That's it. So, for +5 points over the 5 point Dozer blade, you can completely ignore Dangerous terrain tests, verses a Dozer Blade, which fails dangerous terrain tests 2.8% of the time. I know where I'm spending my points.

[Koremu]

Vindicator + Siege Shield = Permanent Cover Save.

Man, if only that were true!

 

Siege Shield: (pg. 80, 5th Edition Space Marine Codex)

Many Vindicators are equipped with an enormous bulldozer blade, allowing them to shoulder aside rubble and other battlefield detritus without risk.

 

A Vindicator with a siege shield automatically passes dangerous terrain tests.

That's it. So, for +5 points over the 5 point Dozer blade, you can completely ignore Dangerous terrain tests, verses a Dozer Blade, which fails dangerous terrain tests 2.8% of the time. I know where I'm spending my points.

 

It is true.

 

If you have a siege shield, you should always be in cover.

 

Oh, and 2.8% is still too high a chance for comfort.

 

Equip Siege Shield, smash your Vindicator through cover, gain cover save.

 

What's not to like?

[kaiserstole20]

I agree wholeheartedly that each person has to select units based on their play style and overall army composition. If you field 1 Vindicator though, I also agree that you should field a second - it greatly increases their effectiveness.

 

The reason I like vindicators is that they are the easy answer to many of life's most vexing problems: Nob Bikers, Monoliths, Land Raiders, Plague Marines, etc. There may be more elegant answers than a vindicator, but I choose to swing a sledgehammer while someone else may choose a scalpel.

[Boomsly]

i agree with koremu, if you have a siege sheild drive it right into terrain.

 

someone posted a while ago about a vindicator in cover and not taking any damage from 2 turns of fire from a whole army, it worked out that it was an due to an obscenly low chance of it getting damaged and the army firing at it didnt believe the numbers that people in here posted about a succesful penetrating hit being achieved.

 

those two turns could have been better spent dealing with a different objective, and for+10 points i think its a very good trade :rolleyes:

[waaanial00]

It is true.

 

If you have a siege shield, you should always be in cover.

 

Oh, and 2.8% is still too high a chance for comfort.

 

Equip Siege Shield, smash your Vindicator through cover, gain cover save.

 

What's not to like?

 

I think the point was that being in cover does not automatically give you a cover save. You still need to be 50% obscured by it in order to claim the cover and that is not always easy to achieve.

 

I agree with you though that 2.8% is too high a chance, especially when you consider that averages are over a long enought time scale and you could have all your 1000 times worth of 2.8% (dont really want to figure that out at this moment) in a row right from the onset. Not exactly what I want to chance with my luck :rolleyes:

 

Wan

[Koremu]

It is true.

 

If you have a siege shield, you should always be in cover.

 

Oh, and 2.8% is still too high a chance for comfort.

 

Equip Siege Shield, smash your Vindicator through cover, gain cover save.

 

What's not to like?

 

I think the point was that being in cover does not automatically give you a cover save. You still need to be 50% obscured by it in order to claim the cover and that is not always easy to achieve.

 

I agree with you though that 2.8% is too high a chance, especially when you consider that averages are over a long enought time scale and you could have all your 1000 times worth of 2.8% (dont really want to figure that out at this moment) in a row right from the onset. Not exactly what I want to chance with my luck :)

 

Wan

 

If that isn't easy to obtain, then you don't have enough cover on the game board.

 

And a base chance of 2.8% is a 13.25% chance of having the tank immobilised over the course of a 5 turn game if you spend all the time in difficult terrain. Too High.

[minigun762]

And a base chance of 2.8% is a 13.25% chance of having the tank immobilised over the course of a 5 turn game if you spend all the time in difficult terrain. Too High.

 

You're only testing if you move right? You drive into terrain on turn 1, have 1 test and then park there the rest of the game.

 

Frankly 5 or 10 points for a 2.8% or 0% chance is fairly nitpicky stuff I'd say, the dice, your opponent or your own tactics will have a far larger impact on the game then that. I think the point is clear that using either tool and taking advantage of cover will be a useful tactic whenever possibly.

[General Retreat]

There’s a way of calculating correlation of forces in the real world with armored vehicles that works just as well in games: while 1 tank is effectively 1 tank, 2 tanks are effectively 4 tanks. Meaning that, two tanks supporting each other will have an impact disproportionate to its actual numbers.

 

In game, we see this when we take two dreadnoughts rather than one, or as the case may be with two or more vindicators. The overall effect is greater; better survivability coupled with a greater amount of firepower that can be directed over a greater amount of battlefront.

 

SJ

 

 

Not to be rude, but I think you've mis-estimated. I've heard this real-world equation, too, except its

 

1 tank = 1 tank

2 tanks = 3 tanks

 

Here's the reasoning. Assume all tanks in this equation are identical (lets call them Tri-Las Annihilators for fun visuals)

 

If one tank is fighting one other tank, each tank carries the burden of destroying one tank, and surviving the return fire of one tank.

 

If one tank is fighting two tanks, the single tank must destroy two tanks, and weather the attacks of two tanks in return to survive victorious, while the two tanks must combine their efforts to destroy one, and only one tank must survive a return attack.

[Blitzkrieg861]

I like what you wrote in this article. I'd have to agree with the first reply in saying I feel that Heavys are best used to fill the gaps in your army. For heavy choices I have a Dakka Pred, a Las Pred, a Crusader and a Dev squad. Essentially, you can use these to fill almost any shooting role. I also agree that Elites tend to hit harder, but I'd say moreso from a medium - short distance which only further emphasizes the usefulness of a Heavy choice as a shooting support unit. Dreads, Termies and Sternguard all shine at between 0 and 24" while your Heavy choices will usually shine at 24+".

[Mutters]

In my MoTF army, I'm rolling 3 Dreads and a termie assault squad all in drops, with 2 tacs in rhinos and a scout squad. The dreads shepherd the enemy either to or away from them, depending on composition, which allows the tacs and term assault squad to squeeze them in. the 10 man scout squad with Telion (combat squad 4 snipers+telion/5 CC scouts) holds 2+ cover save or wimps out if closed on to contest another objective at 3+ cover.

 

In my army, the multiple Dreads do well to take fire off my tac squads, or left alone to wreck havoc. The Rhinos are good for tank shocking and dividing units for focus fire. If I combat squad the tacs, it gives me MLs to back up my sergeant/flamer squads.

 

Sure, sometimes all my armor gets roasted, but its a diverse enough army list to have fun with, even if its not the killiest.

 

I always love charging people with the rhinos, only to have them fall back into flamer range of a tac squad or Dread. :wub:

[Warp Angel]

I'm not sure you can put termies in a drop pod....

[Shadowstalker Grim]

You cant, but you can attach characters with TDA to a drop podding squad.

 

Otherwise its power armour only

[Mutters]

I'm not sure you can put termies in a drop pod....

 

I'm sorry, i had that backwords. I redid my army list at like 3 in the morning and playtested it against my friends (we're all new to WH40k) and forgot that I had bought the rhino i was driving my termies in with a tac squad, and mistakenly switched that rhino with a drop pod. (but didn't check where it came from) because they're both 35 points. Just a side note: the Drop Pod Assault Termies worked beautifully, which is probably why they don't allow them cheap transports. :D Also, I've found that since I have an overabundance of missile launcher guys from extra tac squads, building a devastator squad full of missile launchers (4 ML and 1 sgt) is as good a fire base as any. :)

[Warp Angel]

I disagree on the 5 man Dev squad.

 

Your D2 (time it takes to be killed) is very low. Your S is low because of your inability to move and shoot effectively, or effectively engage in hand to hand against most opponents. All are related to small squad size. 4 heavy weapons in a small space is asking for nothing but hurt to be thrown in your direction, and the lack of "ablative" wounds means that your effectiveness degrades dramatically with even one casualty.

 

If you were to go with 2 heavy weapons, then you're doing reasonably well, since you're not a super-dangerous threat, and are arguably less of a priority than most other units on the table. And you've got nearly the same move and shoot capability as a combat squad. You still suffer from the inability to succeed in hand to hand, but you aren't losing a ton of points by doing so.

 

If you were to increase the squad size up to 10, you gain signficantly in S, since you've got 2/3 or better the effectiveness of a tactical squad on the move and the ablative wounds to take punishment and still fill your primary role of Firebase. Many armies will think twice before assaulting a 10 man marine squad where they would charge with abandon into a 5 man squad.

[Koremu]

A ratio of 1 ablative wound per specialist is the minimum advisable for any Marine formation, IMO.

 

5 Man Dev Squads with 2-3 ablative wounds and 2 Heavy Weapons do have a slight utility that others don't though. Park their Rhino somewhere and use it as a Hatch-firing bunker position.