Killhammer Strategy: Heavy

[minigun762]

I don't think the 5 man Dev squad is very viable when you compare it to a Predator. Devastators only come into their own in 10 man squads, possibly combat squaded otherwise a cheapish Predator is usually better.

[Koremu]

I don't think the 5 man Dev squad is very viable when you compare it to a Predator. Devastators only come into their own in 10 man squads, possibly combat squaded otherwise a cheapish Predator is usually better.

 

That's more or less the problem with both the Devastator Squad and the Predator, summed up right there.

 

In all honesty, the Dev Squads need cheaper Heavy Weapons, and ultimately to be Troops.

 

The Predator on the other hand needs a better selection of weapon mounts and a machine spirit.

[OwenCrute]

Not to be rude, but I think you've mis-estimated. I've heard this real-world equation, too, except its

 

1 tank = 1 tank

2 tanks = 3 tanks

 

Here's the reasoning. Assume all tanks in this equation are identical (lets call them Tri-Las Annihilators for fun visuals)

 

If one tank is fighting one other tank, each tank carries the burden of destroying one tank, and surviving the return fire of one tank.

 

If one tank is fighting two tanks, the single tank must destroy two tanks, and weather the attacks of two tanks in return to survive victorious, while the two tanks must combine their efforts to destroy one, and only one tank must survive a return attack.

 

Okay, so let B = enough firepower to kill a tank.

 

a column of tanks coming one at a time versus two tanks:

 

Two tanks put out 3B- the first tank in the column comes, half-kills Tank A, and is blown to bits. The second tank comes and finishes Tank A and dies at the same time Tank A does. 3rd column tank comes and dies at the same time as Tank B. 3 kills = 3B.

 

Three tanks put out 6B- it takes 3 tanks to kill Tank A, 2 more to kill Tank B and one last one to kill Tank C.

 

Four tanks put out 10B- you should be able to work it out by now.

 

Five put out 15B.

 

Six, and this comparison also works for Dreads, so fear the MotF, put out twenty-one times as much as a single Dread.

 

So, in summary:

1=1

2=3

3=6

4=10

5=15

6=21

 

It's the same kind of pattern as putting together pool balls or bowling pins in a triangle- one plus two plus three et cetera.

 

Of course, this is extremely simplified, not accounting for weapon destroyed or immobilised results, et cetera. It is, however, the best I could come up with. If somebody could come up with similar reasoning as to why the Law of Squares rule, where two tanks are worth four, I'd appreciate it, as I've heard it cited before.

[Mutters]

Ok, I was wondering. Since I have an abundance of Tac Squad Marines, and am devoid of bits (heavy weapons and the like) How effective is fielding a 3-4 man Missile Launcher squad? They're versatile with both krak and frag missiles and 48" range, so i figure stick them in the back and fire away, eh?

[Ming]

I'm experimenting with an anti-horde, dense terrain, army list, experimenting with a "quadruple pie plate" list - 2 whirlwinds, one vindie, and one chapter master...last night against a shooty bug list (1500 points). On one hand, the bugs spent alot of effort to get at and try to shoot my pie plate units, eventually toasting the vindie and one whirlie. But the three vehicles spent so much time stunned or shaken, or their own templates deviating they never added alot of value to my defenses (heck, I don't think the Vindie fired its big gun all game, but it kept a squad of shooty bug warriers and two shootyfexes busy for 4 turns). Of course, the Master's template from the sky deviated fully off any unit, and did nothing for its points (the master eventually killed a fex in HTH but was eaten by the Hive Tyrant). The last whirlwind earned me a draw, when it killed off a gaunt squad trying to take my objective, end of turn 6. If the vehicles were not there soaking up the damage a shooty bug army can do on the march, my three full tac squads, demi-scout squad, 2 speeders, and ICs (master and epilibby), would have died much sooner in the game. I'm hoping on Sunday to do another "experiment" with a tweaked list, but still keeping the three pie heavies for now. Then compare it to a list replacing the three pies with two devs or a dev and pred combo. I already downgraded the master to a Captain and used the points for another fist...

 

Keep the killhammer coming!

[minigun762]

Ok, I was wondering. Since I have an abundance of Tac Squad Marines, and am devoid of bits (heavy weapons and the like) How effective is fielding a 3-4 man Missile Launcher squad? They're versatile with both krak and frag missiles and 48" range, so i figure stick them in the back and fire away, eh?

 

Missile Launchers are always the "safe" answer for Devastators/Havocks for the reasons you just mentioned. Flexible weapons with long range that aren't too expensive, when in doubt this is probably the best setup.

 

Don't forget that a Heavy Bolter Razorback is a cheap way to get an extra heavy weapon, plus it is useful for blocking LOS, or tank shocking or just getting in between that assault unit moving forward and the Devs.

[Warp Angel]

I'm a huge fan of HB razorbacks. They're good against horde, reasonable against MCs and Light Vehicles. And cheap.

 

I'm not really a fan of ML in 5th though.

 

The glancing table got downgraded significantly, and plain S8 doesn't cut it against AV14 anymore. The AP3 doesn't bypass a lot of common armor saves these days, and the S4 AP6 frag still only nets two models covered most of the time.

 

I'd rather have an HB for anti-horde or a MM for anti-vehicle/MC.

 

See my previous comments on how many weapons vs. how many ablative wounds you need.

 

And something to consider when adding units to your army:

 

Sternguard can be modeled by painting basic Space Marines with veteran colors/markings. They don't need flashy bolters, they don't need to look fancy. They just need the right paint job or other quick mod that differentiates them from a standard Marine tactical squad. There's no reason your extra tac marines can't become Sternguard with 2 missile launchers.

[Olesh]

If the vehicles were not there soaking up the damage a shooty bug army can do on the march, my three full tac squads, demi-scout squad, 2 speeders, and ICs (master and epilibby), would have died much sooner in the game.

 

eep the killhammer coming!

 

Whirlwinds are a bit of a glass cannon against tyranids, in my book. A shooting carnifex will auto-glance and with two shots, there are good odds of getting at least one in (75%, in fact) - which means 5/6 chance of no next- turn shooting (immobilize is the exception). The barbed strangler can break it outright, however, and goes in addition to the venom cannon.

 

Vindicators are more threatening but hold up scarcely better - straight 50% average of the carnifex glancing the vindy, although the barbed strangler has only a 1/6 chance of scoring a penetrating hit, the point of the exercise is to stop the vindicator from shooting.

 

In lieu of either, consider a thunderfire cannon. While it seems like a glass cannon, it's easy to protect by offering other, more threatening, alternatives or fielding them in multiples - SCARY to tyranids. Combine two thunderfires with a vindicator to force some hard thinking about target priority.

 

But bear in mind, too, that if you weren't fielding the vehicles, you would have more units (terminators, sternguard, etc) that would possibly be more effective or less vulnerable to shooting from a carnifex.

[Warp Angel]

Credible advice from one of the major folks responsible for the development of Killhammer.

 

(Thank you, Olesh)

 

It really is about threat distribution. Every unit has to be a threat and force targetting choices for the Tyranid player (or any other player). Which is why you don't over-rely on troops, and consider your heavies very carefully. They're going to be fire magnets, they tend to be fragile or degrade quickly, and with a high threat level, they are what should be targetted first by Killhammer principles (most of the time).

 

When shooting at the enemy:

 

(K1-K2) - (D1 + D2) + S = Target Priority

 

K1 is always high for heavy support... or almost always.

K2 is generally pretty good because of range, or because you start them off in knife fighting range.

 

D1 tends to be low to average (AV 11 side and 10 rear, 3+ Armor save, etc)

D2 tends to suck because of single model issues (shaken and stunned like Olesh said), or limited ablative wounds.

 

S tends to be moderate to high since the weapons tend to have unique capabilities or act as transports. Or both (Land Raider).

 

So (high + good) - (low + low) + moderate

(high) - (low) + moderate = high +

 

The trick is getting to them before they create the kill gap.

 

A Thunderfire will often create enough of a kill gap in 1 turn to justify its use. A Vindicator can produce similar results. Whirlwinds are seldom so devastating. Devastator squads are lacking in a number of ways, but surpass most other choices in D rating.

 

And if you deploy the rest of your forces in such a way that they present an equal or greater Killhammer rating than your heavies, that's when your opponent either has to choose between two bad options, leaving himself open to even further killgap creation.

 

Remember, your stuff is going to die. It's up to you to die in a manner that keeps your army's scoring and killing ability higher than your opponents at all times.

[minigun762]

Credible advice from one of the major folks responsible for the development of Killhammer.

 

(Thank you, Olesh)

 

It really is about threat distribution. Every unit has to be a threat and force targetting choices for the Tyranid player (or any other player). Which is why you don't over-rely on troops, and consider your heavies very carefully. They're going to be fire magnets, they tend to be fragile or degrade quickly, and with a high threat level, they are what should be targetted first by Killhammer principles (most of the time).

 

When shooting at the enemy:

 

(K1-K2) - (D1 + D2) + S = Target Priority

 

K1 is always high for heavy support... or almost always.

K2 is generally pretty good because of range, or because you start them off in knife fighting range.

 

D1 tends to be low to average (AV 11 side and 10 rear, 3+ Armor save, etc)

D2 tends to suck because of single model issues (shaken and stunned like Olesh said), or limited ablative wounds.

 

S tends to be moderate to high since the weapons tend to have unique capabilities or act as transports. Or both (Land Raider).

 

So (high + good) - (low + low) + moderate

(high) - (low) + moderate = high +

 

The trick is getting to them before they create the kill gap.

 

A Thunderfire will often create enough of a kill gap in 1 turn to justify its use. A Vindicator can produce similar results. Whirlwinds are seldom so devastating. Devastator squads are lacking in a number of ways, but surpass most other choices in D rating.

 

And if you deploy the rest of your forces in such a way that they present an equal or greater Killhammer rating than your heavies, that's when your opponent either has to choose between two bad options, leaving himself open to even further killgap creation.

 

Remember, your stuff is going to die. It's up to you to die in a manner that keeps your army's scoring and killing ability higher than your opponents at all times.

 

A prime example of what I imagine the "perfect" killhammer example is the Defiler.

It has excellent K1 and K2 with its BattleCannon

D1 is moderate, AV12 isn't horrible

D2 is good I'd say, built in Daemonic Possession means its hard to stop unless you kill it

S is fairly high as well, because it can shoot you at range OR fleet up and get into your face really quickly, that flexibility is quite nice

[Olesh]

A prime example of what I imagine the "perfect" killhammer example is the Defiler.

It has excellent K1 and K2 with its BattleCannon

D1 is moderate, AV12 isn't horrible

D2 is good I'd say, built in Daemonic Possession means its hard to stop unless you kill it

S is fairly high as well, because it can shoot you at range OR fleet up and get into your face really quickly, that flexibility is quite nice

 

You can move and shoot that battle cannon every turn. This is usually the best thing to do, unless you're trying to lock a squad in close combat that happens to be just outside assault range.