Why have I never seen this unit?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I was listbuilding the other night and stumbled across something rather interesting- IDK if its worth its points, but I think it just may be

 

For a Grand Total of 360pts, and taking up 3 Elite Slots and 1 HQ Slot:

 

Inquisitor+PysCannon

Inquisitor+PysCannon

Inquisitor+PysCannon

 

InquisitorLord+PsyCannon

3x Heavy Bolter Servitors

3x Mystics

3x Hierophants

3x Acolytes

 

 

Basically the huge retinue of mostly worthless guys is for ablative wounding-- But including the attached Elite-slot Inqisitors, this unit puts out 21 shots at 36" range (9@ Str5 and 12@ Str6). Basically you are going to neuter whatever unit you fire at each turn (cue a numbers cruncher? if somebody knows how to Math-hammer it that'd be cool), and 360pts is small enough that the rest of your army can pull other tricks too. The biggest downside I can see is the use of all 3 of your Elite slots, as well as presenting 4 Kill Points in a single unit. If you protected it well though, this could be quite nasty I think.

 

Thoughts?

[mightygoose]

thats why pie plate ordinance templates exist....

 

very scary unit but what are the saves on the retinue? / standard saves on the Inquisitors? how much punishment can they take...?

[Mal]

against a vindi plate... not a lot... they will squish quite easily which is why the standard setup for a heavy inq is for long range weaponry, it gives them time to pop off a couple of shots and move out of the way before going splat.

[Reinholt]

For a few reasons:

 

1 - DH armies usually are hurting for anti-tank, and that unit doesn't provide any beyond dinging up light armor.

 

2 - Anyone using Grey Knghts is going to have other ideas for both their HQ unit and their elites most of the time.

 

3 - The points efficiency of the unit is still kind of low. Compared to what else you could get for that many points (three predator destructors with a grand total of three autocannons, six heavy bolters, and heavy enough front armor that you aren't going to scratch it with the unit you described) from other armies, it's just not a good buy.

 

On the other hand, smaller versions of that idea with an elite inquisitor or a single inquisitor lord are probably quite viable. As is, that's overkill for the things you'd want to slaughter with it, and underkill against the things that would give it trouble (either because they have 3+ saves or higher armor values).

 

I think that's the right idea for a firebase, but scaling it back some makes it more efficient for the points, not less.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Super-great feedback, thanks!

 

I'm not sure that it is underkill on 3+ saves though, that many shots is designed to put a hurt on things even with armor that good. And I don't think it is going to be overkill on those 30 Boyz Ork squads.

 

To be honest, I think it would be worth it vs. Orks and Nids (and other low Vehicle armies) but at best it would be a novelty vs. Mech or Armored forces.

 

 

On the survivability, I think 9 ablative wounds in a 21-wound unit with a 4+ cover save (any player worth his salt can get that unit a cover save in these days of 5th Ed) with a leader that can choose automatic success or failure of morale should be ok, even vs. Large Blast weaponry (spread 'em out, if you do it right it is actually hard to kill more than 3 or 4, esp with a cover save)

 

 

And comparing cost vs. the Newer codices isn't fair, cheap dakka is easy to come by in anything new (40pt SM Attack Bikes, The Pred mentioned, Ork Lootas, ETC). BS4 on 21 shots is 14 hits, Math-hammerwise you'd need 210 pts worth of Lootas who rolled a 5-6 on their D3 for that many hits.

 

Nobody ever said Daemonhunters were supremely competitive lol-- I was merely exploring an angle I had not seen anyone trying. Thanks for the feedback and now I just gotta try it on the table-- Theory-Hammer often falls once a unit pronounced 'good' or 'bad' hits the table.

[Red Lost Soldier]

It's a nice idea, but I think anything it can handle the standard PC, 2 HB, Psycannon =][= Lord squad can handle almost as well for cheaper and with more ablative wounds.

 

I can imagine pie plates, and also combat against this unit being devastating.

[Marid]

One thing about that unit is that it looks really scary. But if your opponent goes after them he is not going after Grey Knights. And that can hurt him a lot too. Shooty inquisitors and Grey Knights work pretty well together. That's probably another reason few people take Purgation Squads.

 

I say give it a go sometime when you're not intending on taking GKTs. It might be fun. :teehee:

[Aidoneus]

It's a nice idea, but I think anything it can handle the standard PC, 2 HB, Psycannon =][= Lord squad can handle almost as well for cheaper and with more ablative wounds.

In fact, you can get 2 such squads for cheaper than his 1 squad, and end up with more killing power and fewer KPs.

 

But more importantly, we have one of, if not the, best anti-infantry troop choices in the game. We don't need any more than that! Maybe, maybe, one such Inq squad would come in handy for long-range support, but even then it's a somewhat expensive luxury, and is probably only there to unlock an assassin.

[Lungboy]

The Hierophants with the lord seem a total waste, you'd be better off ditching them and giving the Acolytes artificer armour. More than 2 Mystics is also a waste, other than allowing 1 to die and still keeping their bonus. 2 Sages would be more beneficial whilst keeping the retinue large (as seems to be your intention).

[Maligoare]

Don't forget that the =I= Lord and retinue will count for two KP, so you will be giving up five in total.

 

To me, the unit seems like it will be unwieldy and have most of the models in it doing very little. Why go for a huge number of extra 'ablative wounds' when you could keep the squad size smaller, gain a smaller footprint, and then be able to hide the unit more easilly to negate incomming fire. Personally, I'd much prefer an assassin in one of the Elites slots.

[revnow]

I play the shooty inquisitor squad a lot and to be quite honest its not all it's cracked up to be. This one is especially problematic because it exacerbates the weakest qualities of the squad. High expense for comparable return, weak against fast moving assault, more than one KP. If a truk boy squad or nob biker unit even touches this squad it's gone. I'm not going to bother with the nob bikerz, but heres some quick math on the truk boyz.

 

Turbo boost turn 1

9 shots from HB BS4

9 shots from psycannons BS4

3 shots from psycannon BS5

 

7H from HB (sage re-roll)

6H from BS4 psycannon

2.45H from BS5 psycannon

aprox 8.5 total psycannon hits

 

1.17 HB pens

2.83 psycannon pens

 

after cover

.35 HB pens

.94 psycannon pens

1.3 total pens

 

After firing that entire squad, on average you are only getting just over a single penetrating hit. If there is more than one truk (and there always is) you are almost guaranteed to be in a losing combat as of turn 2. Maybe with a good sacrifice unit in front of the firebase this might work, but even then its unlikely that it would last more than 4 turns against a fast, combat oriented army. If that unit sees the light of combat you are turning over 5 KPs, 4 FOC slots, and 360 points in your list. Because of the HB servitors it isn't particularly mobile, and cannot claim or even effectively contest objectives. I would recommend at least proxy playtesting it before anything else.

[number6]

It's just too expensive. You can't build a gunline off of the DH codex -- even with inducted IG helping -- so it's not worth it to try. Having one such shooty Inquisitorial firebase -- without all the Elite Inquisitors -- is usually a worthy points investment, if only for the hurt it puts on deep striking. There's so very much deep striking these days that any discouragement is helpful. But beyond that you're sinking so many points into a squishy unit that gives up a lot of KPs that you're really going to be suffereing elsewhere in your list.

 

As Aidoneus noted, for the 150 pts you spent on 3 Elite Inquisitors with a psycannon, you could actually get an Elite Inquisitorial Firebase and have even more firepower and effectiveness. (A 2nd unit capable of knocking out opportunisitic deep strikers? Yes, please!) Otherwise, that's 150 pts that could do something else seriously awesome in the list. (E.g., a melta-toting IST unit with a Rhino, a Dreadnought, the core of a PAGK unit or GKT retinue, etc.)

[Mal]

Don't forget that the =I= Lord and retinue will count for two KP, so you will be giving up five in total.

 

Unless the =][= lord dies before the last man in the retinue, then its only 1 KP.

[Tauren]

Technically doesn't the inquisitor lord and his retinue count as 2 points each? Per kill points entry page 91 on the rulebook? It says clearly that a character and his retinue are worth 1 KP each.

[Aidoneus]

Don't forget that the =I= Lord and retinue will count for two KP, so you will be giving up five in total.

 

Unless the =][= lord dies before the last man in the retinue, then its only 1 KP.

No, that's not true. We hashed this out in the Daemonhunters FAQ that is stickied at the top of this forum. Go read our discussion there, particularly one of my last posts where I quote the actual rulebook. It's actually not even up for debate; the rules are quite clear.

[Red Lost Soldier]

I play the shooty inquisitor squad a lot and to be quite honest its not all it's cracked up to be. This one is especially problematic because it exacerbates the weakest qualities of the squad. High expense for comparable return, weak against fast moving assault, more than one KP. If a truk boy squad or nob biker unit even touches this squad it's gone. I'm not going to bother with the nob bikerz, but heres some quick math on the truk boyz.

 

Turbo boost turn 1

9 shots from HB BS4

9 shots from psycannons BS4

3 shots from psycannon BS5

 

7H from HB (sage re-roll)

6H from BS4 psycannon

2.45H from BS5 psycannon

aprox 8.5 total psycannon hits

 

1.17 HB pens

2.83 psycannon pens

 

after cover

.35 HB pens

.94 psycannon pens

1.3 total pens

 

After firing that entire squad, on average you are only getting just over a single penetrating hit. If there is more than one truk (and there always is) you are almost guaranteed to be in a losing combat as of turn 2. Maybe with a good sacrifice unit in front of the firebase this might work, but even then its unlikely that it would last more than 4 turns against a fast, combat oriented army. If that unit sees the light of combat you are turning over 5 KPs, 4 FOC slots, and 360 points in your list. Because of the HB servitors it isn't particularly mobile, and cannot claim or even effectively contest objectives. I would recommend at least proxy playtesting it before anything else.

 

I entirely disagree with your assessment of the unit. It's an anti infantry fire squad. If you are firing at vehicles then you are wasting it. You wouldn't call HB retributors or HB attack bikes useless because they can't kill Falcons.

 

Yes Nob Bikers will paste this unit, they will paste just about anything and are two whole editions further up the power creep meter.

 

I run a full =][= Lord, PC, 2 HB, Psycannon, 2 Sage & Mystic and a lot of wounds. Most of my opponents fear this squad more than similar devastator squads. Against combat of course this squad will fail, it's a shooty squad. The rest of your army is there to deal with vehicles and assault protection. What this squad excels at is taking shooty damage and pouring out fire.

 

For taking damage, the fact you can now give wounds to the =][= Lord first means 2-6 X S5- wounds can be effectively ignored. Combine with Iron Will, cover saves and 6pt wounds this is a squad that is very hard to shift.

 

On the offensive, you have a Plasma Cannon more accurate than anyone codex I know can field, 3 very effective anti infantry weapons. Add onto this the ability to get free shots at both deep strikers and infiltrators, this squad is extremely effective.

[Reinholt]

Yes, but your unit is not the one described above:

 

- You have only 2 KPs, not 5.

- Yours will come in cheaper.

- You have the right retinue (sages, plasma cannon, etc).

 

The first unit is a poorly constructed version of what you are suggesting a cheaper and more effective form of.

[revnow]

@Red Lost Soldier: More importantly I think you're ignoring the overall point of the assessment. For the first two turns of a game against a fast assault army, all you really have to shoot at is vehicles. Against speed freaks you would be shooting at the truks because A that's really all there is, and B its the most immediate threat whistling towards the bloated firebase. Furthermore, like other posters noted, the DH codex is rife with anti-infantry/anti-horde, so this firebase simply doesn't bring anything uniquely valuable to the table to negate its many drawbacks.

 

Particularly considering the growing popularity of mechanized armies I just don't see this firebase configuration being a viable option.

[Red Lost Soldier]

While yes with a fast mechanized army you be forced to shoot at vehicles first, I would do so with the rest of my army containing lascannons, missile launchers, meltaguns, etc. Then either shoot the occupants when they emerge if they are in LOS. Or if they deploy behind the vehicle to avoid LOS, they have to go around (thus slowing them down) or trudge through the new crater of difficult/dangerous terrain. Either result is a bonus for me.

 

This unit comes in at just over 220pt, and is my single HQ choice some games. That leaves plenty of points for real long range anti tank and some form of counter charge if I need it.

 

Lastly any assault unit silly enough to fire pistols or equivalent before the charge would be annoyed when I choose to fail my morale test with Iron Will and fall back. Kind of like combat tactics, except the =][= has been doing it for years. It has caught a few opponents out, though they learn quickly.

[revnow]

Again, the unit you are defending is not the unit the the OP is proposing.

[Red Lost Soldier]

Fair point but I am defending firebase squads in general, something both my example and the OP unit are designed for. They have their place.

[Marid]

I don't particularly like point and counter-point arguments involving this unit against that one in a straight-up fight. They don't take into account the fact that the units in an army should work together to form a cohesive force. For example, my Inquisitor Lord and his firebase are backed up by Grey Knights and Storm Troopers and Land Raiders.

 

I think a better approach is to discuss whether a Inquisitor firebase has a place in the army as a whole. The biggest drawback I see is that they must remain static to be effective while the rest of the army performs very well on the move. Can your battle plan make use of such a unit? The unit offered in the opening post has four Psycannons, which allows it to move and still fire. This is something that standard Inquisitor firebases can't do. However, Inquisitor firebases really shouldn't be moving. They don't have the armor saves if they get caught in the open.

 

If you want mobility, for 370 points we can get another unit that can also fire four Psycannons: a Purgation Squad. One can buy an 8-man Purgation Squad with four Psycannons and four Storm Bolters and all the benefits of a PAGK. Within 24" it has essentially the same firepower. It is worth 1 KP and it can move and still offer most of its effectiveness. It has moderate CC ability. It can even get caught out of cover and have a chance because of 3+ saves. Its drawback, besides cost, is that it takes a precious HS slot. But is one HS more precious than 1 HQ + 3 Elites?

 

IMO, I think that the OP's unit is an inferior mobile firebase (compared to a Purgation Squad) and an inferior static firebase (compared to two standard Inquisitor firebases).

[Brother Delias]

To the point that the codex is older than other codices used: Yes it is old, but it is still viable, and certain elements are as good as or better than elements of the same type that are used in imperial codices. Their are other old codices that are in dire need of reworking altogether, while the DH codex is simply in need of tweaking for 5th ed.(DA codex anyone?)

 

OP Inquisitor Firebase: Bad idea, simply put. like others have mentioned, there are other units that do it better in the codex. compare that to the units that it is made to kill, those units can easily eat this unit, even with ablative wounds.

 

it's the sad fact that a full up grot squad or two cost less and can destroy this unit.