Bringing up the Bloodclaw topic again...

[ChainsawDR]

Hi,

 

I've read through the previous posts on here regarding the Blood Claws vs Grey Hunters topic. Most people are saying that GH are better, however if the SW army is orientated to Close Combat (which I assume most are) then when it comes to assaulting I must be missing something... and if someone could please explain it to me I'd appreciate it very much.

 

I must say I havent played for 15 years and I'm learning the rules before adding more units to my SW army (hence wanting to clear this up before I buy another GH or BC pack).

 

When a BC pack of 10 assaults (forgetting PF for a moment) they get 40 dice rolls (1 Attack, plus 2 for beserk, plus 1 for pistol and CCW) but because of their lower WS they need to hit on a 4, 5 or 6 - a 1 in 2 chance meaning they expect to actually hit the opponent 20 times.

 

When a GH pack on 10 assaults (again ingoring PF) they get 20 dice rolls (1 attack, plus one for true grit - they dont get the 2 ccw attack). They hit on a 3, 4, 5, 6 - meaning two thirds land - so 12 or 13 hits.

 

Both the GH and BC have the same Inititive and same armour save - so why are BC's not rated more highly?

 

Yes I understand that GH have bolters, but if either GH or BC are going to assault then they need to be within 12" anyway so range of weapon isn't really a factor and pistols will cause the same damage. The only difference is the BS of the BC's - is this the only reason why GH are more highly rated?

 

Any feedback would be appreciated, and sorry to bring this topic up again.

 

Thank you for your time.

[Reinholt]

I will say this, from the perspective of someone playing against Space Wolves:

 

I'm going to hit Blood Claws more easily than Grey Hunters.

 

The lower BS matters for any special weapons if you take any of those, but otherwise, that's not the real driver. Just keep in mind that you're also going to get hit back easier, especially if you are the one getting assaulted rather than doing the assaulting (which is where the disparity is greatest in attacks - if you assume you got charged, the picture changes dramatically).

[ChainsawDR]

Arrrggghhhh - my head is hurting thinking about this! (thank you for helping btw, I do appreciate it!)

 

10x Grey Hunters with 10 bolters, 2 PF, 8 CCW, Rhino - 245pts

10x Blood Claws with 10 Bolt Pistols, 2 PF, 8 CCW, Rhino - 199pts

 

Question - Is 46pts really worth the difference between the two? Would it be better to upgrade two blood claw packs to grey hunters, and sacrifice two attack bikes for it?

 

Before I started posting this I thought no - however I'm thinking that if I disembark a BC pack from a Rhino and I want them to assault the following turn then I have to leave them close enough (within 12") to allow the enemy to assault me in their turn - doesn't really matter if I put a Rhino in the way to

block LOS, it won't take up enough movement going around the Rhino to stop the enemy charging - which completely negates the advantage of the blood claws beserk charge. They could fire 10 BS3 Bolt Pistols but that would mean leaving LOS for the enemies turn, and if I was the enemy I'd make sure I finished each turn over 12" away from the Blood Claws and whittle them with firepower.

 

I'm thinking now that BC's are only good from a Land Raider, where they can then assault and benefit from the 40+ dice rolls - expensive transport though!

 

One last thing regarding Bloodclaws...

 

I have read that on the attack they get 4 attacks (1 attack, +2 Beserk, +1 CCW) however don't they also get the countercharge universal special rule (in the SW codex) which means they get 3 attacks when they are assaulted. If this is correct it may change the situation slightly.

 

Thanks again.

[Shiodome]

blood claws are better than hunters for assault units. being easier to hit is more than balanced by being 18% cheaper, having larger units (15) which helps deals with the fact they get hit more, more attacks and more close combat options (3 powerfists). bloodclaws on foot work fine in large units... you don't 'need' transports to get an assault unit into combat, going on foot never stops mobs of 20 orks or tyranid broods, and with T4 and a 3+ the claws are more survivable than either.

 

grey hunters are just better as an 'all round' unit with bolters.

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

Well as Wolves are the only army I play I'll add to this topic. There are mixed views on this subject which have been discussed to death over in the Fang (Space Wovles Froum) I'd have a wonder over.

 

I like to take Claws as my assault troop for the following reasons. Firstly is the fluff side of things, they are supposed to be our assault troops. Secondly the Beserk Charge is just too good for me to pass up on, I dont mind hitting on 4's when there is that many attacks going in. This leads me onto the Powerfist's, in a 15 strong BC unit I can have 3 Fists and on the charge each fist will get 3 attacks a piece. Compared to the Greyhunters who only get 2 on the charge it makes a big difference.

 

My staple Troop selection is a 10 strong BC unit and a 8 to 10 strong GH unit both in Rhino's with Dozer Blades. I always use them as team with the GH's higher BS and plasma load out softening targets before the BC's mop up. If the enemy is in cover I'll either use the BC's with thier frags to go in or I will try and Tank shock them out of it with Dozerblades. I will tr yot keep the GH's out of combats whilst the pups are running riot.

 

As for using a Rhino or a Land Raider again its personal preference. In my two Rhino set up the GH Rhino will lead the way with the BC one up its arse. In the turn I assault the BC's will dismount and then charge after the GH's dismoutn and light up the target., its awlays nice having the Rhino around to block some LoS afterwards or to prevent a counter charge the following turn. Also by doing a Rhino shuffle you can get two smokes for the price of one if you position them correctly and alternate who leads and who follows.

[ChainsawDR]

A big thanks to both Shiodome and Wolf Guard!

 

I was beginning to start doubting the young pups!

 

I like the sound of a 10 GH pack in a Rhino, teaming up with a 9 BC with 1 WGPL (3 PF's in total). I understand the "Rhino shuffle" to make use of the smokes over two turns, however I'm unsure as how exactly to protect the Blood Claws from being assaulted in the turn they disembark (sorry I'm returning to the game after a long absence).

 

I was a little confused when you wrote

In the turn I assault the BC's will dismount and then charge after the GH's dismoutn and light up the target

as I didn't think Blood Claws could disembark and assault in the same turn.

 

I imagine disembarking both squads from Rhinos once they reach approx 12" of the target, positioning the Rhinos so they leave a LOS from the GH pack to the target, but using one or both Rhinos to block the LOS to the Blood Claws. The GH's use rapid fire to shoot 20 rounds at the target, but the BC's stay where they are and don't fire due to the blocked LOS.

 

This then leaves the GH's open to being charged in the opponents turn, however these would cope better than the BC's because of their WS4 - and if one unit is going to be charged, the GH's are the best to receive it.

 

The following turn the Rhino's move out of the way, both squads open fire, and then the BC's charge into the assault.

 

Is this the way it is best done?

 

Also, I tried to find the Fang but only found a Space Wolves site with no forum - any chance of a link (or if not allowed) a clue as to finding this site.

 

Thanks again.

[StormTAG]

You can disembark and assault, so long as you have not moved the transport yet that turn. So, you could move the Rhino within 8" of your opponents and you're guaranteed to get the charge (2" Disembark + 12" charge = 8" distance + 6" move) unless they move forward and charge your Rhino. In which case, they could surround it and pop it and you wouldn't be able to disembark and thus die.

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

StormTAG hit the nail on the head I should have made it more clear. I use a turn to set up the assault and then dismount before I move the Transport.

 

P.S. The Fang is what the Space Wolves sub forum on this website is referred to by its inhabitants.

[Warp Angel]

blood claws are better than hunters for assault units. being easier to hit is more than balanced by being 18% cheaper, having larger units (15) which helps deals with the fact they get hit more, more attacks and more close combat options (3 powerfists). bloodclaws on foot work fine in large units... you don't 'need' transports to get an assault unit into combat, going on foot never stops mobs of 20 orks or tyranid broods, and with T4 and a 3+ the claws are more survivable than either.

 

Yes, it does. I regularly slaughter 20 strong mobs of both before they reach assault range. Bloodclaws on foot are even less effective, because I can charge them instead. (They don't have the fleet quality to keep me outside of charge range) Sure, they may be more durable, but inflicting 5 casualties on a squad of 15 drops your number of attacks signficantly enough that you're not that much of a threat, and killing 7-10 is more likely than killing just 5.

 

And as other people have pointed out, Bloodclaws aren't nearly as potent when they recieve the charge instead of getting it. And if they lose combat... well, that's just not a good thing.

[Wolf Guard Hengist]

Well as for Claws taking a charge being less effective one can argue they do actually receive the Beserk Charge based on the wording of the Counter Attack USR. Being at work at dont have my books with me but the wording goes along the lines of "As if Charging" thus activating beserk charge. It has been discussed recently and clarified for Adepticon here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=158458

[Shiodome]

in isolation yes. but neither orks, nids of SWs ever have 1 'mob' incoming... dropping 5 in a sqaud of 15 doesn't reduce their impact that much imo, as long as the 3 power fists are there you're golden, that's where the hurting comes from. if you're claiming that orks/nids rarely get any of their mobs in combat, then you'd be claiming horde assault armies don't work? would have to disagree with that.