Question about Kantor and Transports

[Acemontiero]

If Pedro Kantor is in a transport, does Inspiring Presence still give +1 Attack to models within 12"? And if it does, you would measure the 12" from the hull of the transport, correct?

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Correct.

[DevianID]

Ah this old question about abilities in vehicles, now for pedro kantor... [puts on bullet proof vest]

 

If the question is, what rule allows pedro to use his ability from a rhino, the answer is there isnt one. There are rules allowing pedro to fire a weapon from the vehicle, and there are rules allowing pedro to use psychic abilities (if he had them) but there is/are no rules for how to handle using abilities and or wargear from a vehicle. And, the rules are written permissively, thus if there is no rule stating you can do something, then you cant do it. So, no rules to use abilities from vehicles --> cant use those abilities from vehicles.

 

However, almost EVERYONE, myself included, play that you can use abilities from a vehicle (despite no rule explicitly allowing this) and that you measure the range from the hull (although again it is not explicit that this is how you should measure range for all abilities) Note that in 4th edition there were rules saying you specificly could not use abilities from vehicles, so choosing to play this way means that you agree the rules have changed since 4th edition without being specificly written as such.

 

To forstall the comments that I know are coming, yes I know that there is a section stating 'if you need to measure range for an embarked model, measure from the vehicles hull' But 'if you need to' does not mean 'you can use abilities from vehicles' That is just one of many measurement rules, not permission to do something.

 

Also, measuring from a vehicles hull is specificly NOT the way to measure many of the things models are explicitly allowed to do. For example, they had to make a faq detailing the interaction of psychic powers and vehicles, as before the faq you could not use all powers in a vehicle. After the faq, they put rules in that said yes you can use most powers in a vehicle, and here are the ways you measure range while embarked, depending on how the power is used, as the current set of rules are incomplete.

 

Also, dont forget that units embarked on vehicles are removed from the table. Thus, pedro in a vehicle is not on the table, and pedro's special rule (and codex rules override BBB rules) state that you measure 12 inches from pedro kantor, NOT from a vehicle pedro kantor is embarked on.

 

Is it nit picky? Maybe, but saying that is expressing a personal opinion and not really helpful in a logical discussion. Do I play this way? No. (Read: I do not play this way!!!) BUT, if someone said that this is how they think it works, citing all the rules right out of the book that never allow this ability to be played from a vehicle, and also showing that I have no rules in my codex that allow the ability to be used (and yes, many codex do detail which abilities can be used in a vehicle *and* how they are used in a vehicle and how you measure range) and ALSO showing that I am not even on the board with the model I want to use the ability of, I would concede the point--WITH NO ILL WILL TOWARDS THE OTHER PLAYER--and play by RAW, and disembark to provide the 12 inch bubble.

 

PS: This argument is more famous in the blood angel forum in regards to corbulo's 2 abilities that have a 6 inch and 12 inch range. One ability is described as corbulo healing a wounded comrade, with blood poured from a chalice said to contain the very blood of sanguinis. How that ability can be used from a rhino driving 18 inches a turn leaves many scratching their head, but that ability has as much of a right to be used from a vehicle as any other--which is to say, decide with your opponent if you will make a house rule to allow some or all abilities to be use while embarked, and decide what rule(s) you will use to represent using said abilities from vehicles, because as I pointed out there is no rule saying you can use abilities from vehicles.

[Master Incarias]

My response to this query is very simple:

 

Where does it say that models in transports no longer have the ability to use their powers/special rules?

 

The answer to my response is a bit more complicated:

 

1: It says that the unit is removed. Okay.

1b: Have you ever tried fitting five Terminators into a Land Raider? Where else should we put the unit?

1c: It also says it's being transported, which at the very least implies its theoretical placement is within/on the vehicle in question. The guidelines to measuring from the unit also imply that the unit is not, in fact, off-table, in spite of its models having been removed.

 

2: The unit/model has its ability. For it to no longer have it, something must change. As DevianID says, the rulesset is permissive, i.e. it tells us what we can do. It also tells us exactly what abilities we can deny our opponent, such as using a Teleport Homer on the turn the unit carrying it deploys. Apart from the tenuous statement that the models are removed, there is nothing to allow us to deny Kantor (for example) the use of his ability from within a vehicle.

 

3: Where Games Workshop has made decisions about rules in vehicles, they have said that powers can indeed be used from within a vehicle. They have not answered this particular query, but when searching for RAI (which is dangerous) similar decisions help.

 

So, the question (to me) boils down to whether the unit is truly removed from the table, not only physically, but also ruleswise, when they embark a vehicle. I, personally, do not.

 

This is not a problem for me; I don't often use transports, and my gaming club has an FAQ of its own.

[Steelmage99]

Also, dont forget that units embarked on vehicles are removed from the table. Thus, pedro in a vehicle is not on the table, and pedro's special rule (and codex rules override BBB rules) state that you measure 12 inches from pedro kantor, NOT from a vehicle pedro kantor is embarked on.

 

The models are indeed removed from the table, but for game purposes the unit is still there. A unit can capture an objective from inside a transport.

[DevianID]

there is nothing to allow us to deny Kantor (for example) the use of his ability from within a vehicle.

 

One issue (minor) is that kantor's rule says to measure from kantor. If you measure from the hull of a vehicle, you are not measuring from kantor, as your codex says you must do for that ability. You need an additional rule from something to say that while in a vehicle, instead of using kantor's rule as written, you follow xxx, where xxx details how to use and measure kantors ability from a rhino.

 

The models are indeed removed from the table, but for game purposes the unit is still there. A unit can capture an objective from inside a transport.

 

Dont forget they needed a rules entry that allowed embarked units to capture an objective. If for game purposes the unit is still there, then you can shoot them while they are, for example, embarked on a land raider? There are many thing an embarked unit can not do or have done to them until they get out of the vehicle.

 

Some more food for thought... can kantor fire his orbital barrage inside a land raider? Does the orbital barrage ability require a fire point? Does inspiring presence require a fire point? Would an ability that requires LOS (targeter comes to mind) but is not a shooting attack require the use of a fire point to use from a vehicle? The answer is that there is no answer other than to house rule it.

[Souchan]

Some more food for thought... can kantor fire his orbital barrage inside a land raider? Does the orbital barrage ability require a fire point? Does inspiring presence require a fire point? Would an ability that requires LOS (targeter comes to mind) but is not a shooting attack require the use of a fire point to use from a vehicle? The answer is that there is no answer other than to house rule it.

 

1. No he can't, it mentions it is considerd a regular shooting attack. It being barrage once he has a fire point or is outside he doesn't need LOS though.

2. I'm still undecided on the matter of regular abilties and vehicles.

3. Well what ability are we talking about here?

[Master Incarias]

One issue (minor) is that kantor's rule says to measure from kantor. If you measure from the hull of a vehicle, you are not measuring from kantor, as your codex says you must do for that ability. You need an additional rule from something to say that while in a vehicle, instead of using kantor's rule as written, you follow xxx, where xxx details how to use and measure kantors ability from a rhino.

 

Yes, and the same is true for Psychic powers. Look, for example, at the wording of Null Zone.

 

We have that rule, under Transort Vehicles, and it says to measure from the hull of the vehicle. The fact that a strange situation requires additional rules is not surprising. So:

 

Model Z has ability X

X has a range of Y"/all (enemy/friendly?) models within Y" are affected

When the model (actual plastic/metal representation of rules bundle) is on table, Y is measured from the model's base

When embarked in a vehicle (and the model is not available), the distance for X is measured from the hull of the vehicle

 

Where is the problem?

 

At the end of the day, though, I'm with you: the rule is not as clear as it should be. If it were, we wouldn't be arguing. Or one of us would be a prat. Or both.

 

When possible, house rule clarifications are our friends...

[Acemontiero]

I see. Well, I couldn't find any rules about it anywhere, so I thought I'd ask.

I guess the easiest answer to this question is, like many others, to discuss the question before the game.

[DevianID]

Would an ability that requires LOS (targeter comes to mind) but is not a shooting attack require the use of a fire point to use from a vehicle?

3. Well what ability are we talking about here?

 

The targeter from daemonhunters, witchhunters, and imp guard, from memory, allows you to check range from a model to a unit before you shoot, and then declare your target, even if it is different from the unit you used the targeter on. Stormtroopers IIRC all come with them standard, and they can be bought for a point each from the armory for sarges and characters.

[Souchan]

Would an ability that requires LOS (targeter comes to mind) but is not a shooting attack require the use of a fire point to use from a vehicle?

3. Well what ability are we talking about here?

 

The targeter from daemonhunters, witchhunters, and imp guard, from memory, allows you to check range from a model to a unit before you shoot, and then declare your target, even if it is different from the unit you used the targeter on. Stormtroopers IIRC all come with them standard, and they can be bought for a point each from the armory for sarges and characters.

 

While not said literally, it strikes me as clear that they should actually have the intention of shooting if they want to use the targeter and this they cannot do without firepoints.

 

Raw wise, the pick a target and check range change places with each other, but that still leaves the 2 steps before picking a target, (1)choosing one of your units to shoot and (2) checking it's LOS. p.15 of the BRB

Neither of these can, in my opinion, be fulfilled.

[Acemontiero]

Just one more thing: What else would they be talking about in regards to the rule under "embarking" on pg 66 if it's not to allow the use of abilities? Does the last sentence there do anything else at all?

[Souchan]

Just one more thing: What else would they be talking about in regards to the rule under "embarking" on pg 66 if it's not to allow the use of abilities? Does the last sentence there do anything else at all?

 

Well actually I'd been looking for that one for a while and couldn't find it again. Yeah there you go and that should solve it. :lol:

 

(should have read the FAQ better, it even references the page)