Belfast Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 In your opinion, how many lesser summoned demons are too many? Basically, I'm working to optimize my 1k sons + the pyre 2000pt list and I'm having a little bit of trouble deciding how to use my LSDs. Right now I have 2 squads of 8 LSD's, 2 squads of 7 1k sons, and 1 squad of 10 CSM for my troop choices. I really like having LSD's in my list but I fear I am taking too many. Since the 1k sons are so terrible in CC, the lsd's are really there to clean up the mess that the 1k sons create. my basic tactic is rushing 2 squads of 1k sons up the field to focus on troops and using the lesser demons to finish off anything the 1k sons don't kill. With this tactic, i'm usually doing pretty well and kill 2-3 troop choices right off the bat, but then I tend to lose most of my people from shooting in the next phase. Am I dedicating too much to the demons (only 204pts), should I minimize them a bit by making them 5 man squads or drop one squad all together in order to field more tsons? The demons provide some very needed extra bodies for my list, but outside of the initial deep strike and assault, they just don't seem to be that effective. I must say... killing 6 marines with the Tsons and then the next 4 from 24 attacks from LSD's is a very rewarding feeling. Mowing down troop choices makes me happy :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I would say it depends. Unlike CSMs or Thousand Sons, Lesser Daemons are only good at 1 thing and thats basic infantry killing. Taking alot of them isn't bad per se, as long as your anti-tank/anti-MC/anti-transport etc elements are covered. If not, then focusing more on the adaptable CSMs would be better. But you could easily have an army with 2 Daemon Princes, 6 Obliterators and some Terminators for anti-tank and Thousand Sons and Lesser Daemons for anti-infantry. As for the number per squad, too small and you give up kill points and too big you run the risk of getting bogged down. I'd go with 8-10 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I run one squad of 15, its under 200 points and really annoys my opponents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Disciple Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 It does sound as though you are focusing on the Daemons too much. Why not try experimenting there are some very nice options in the Chaos list. Personally I love Defilers and Dreadnaughts (yeah I really did say that). You could also try Raptors, Havocs or even a Predator if you have the points. I'd suggest experimenting, try running a few proxy lists against some friends and see what you like. In the end however, all that matters is do you enjoy playing your list? Disciple Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathar the great Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I had some experiments with two units of 15 combined with a Rhino rush. Two five man squads of CSM with icon in Rhinos. In the first round, I got them as far as possible, then unloaded. Next round the Rhinos and CSM were nearly killed by enemy fire but I managed to get both units of Demons in play afterwards. They held a squad of Slaaneshi Termies and a Dual-Claw Termielord in CC for the rest of the game but where killed in the last round, along with the Rhinos and CSM. A bit too expensive a tactic for so little gain. I'll probably use one small squad as a point filler in later games that's it. Better thing to get for those points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democratus Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Their real problem is Fearless + poor Save. These, combined with average CC ability mean that they are dispatched fairly easily in Assault. If an enemy can charge a Daemon unit and one of your PM squads at once, they can use the wound resolution rules to force No Retreat! wounds onto the PMs due to killing more Daemons. If you insist on using them, they may be okay to sit on an objective in cover. I'd use 10 or more for this purpose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 On the other hand, sending 8-10 to tie up a wraithlord you don't want to deal with is very convenient as they can't hurt it but won't die quickly either, taking it out of the game for 1.5-2 game turns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Their real problem is Fearless + poor Save. These, combined with average CC ability mean that they are dispatched fairly easily in Assault. I could see that, but I think the fix is not to not use the, but to use them well. Lesser Daemons are put into a typical list for 3 reasons normally 1) Add an extra scoring unit, in this case the squad is mostly there to camp objectives, even going to ground if need be. 2) To tie up MEQ killers, things like Wraithlords or Dreadnoughts or Banshees, anything thats geared to cut through a 3+ save will be slowed by more, cheaper 5++ saves. 3) To support CSMs or Cult Troops, most often used with Thousand Sons, they work together with the main unit, adding numbers to help tilt a battle in your favor. In all of these scenarios, the key is deployment and target priority (like everything else in 40k). Don't charge that squad of Terminators unless you are focused on protecting the more vunerable Plague Marines Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsoftaurus Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 In some cases I'd actually say that the more you have the better, if you've already covered the other army needs. More units of LDs makes them coming in where and when you need them more reliable (be it early/mid game assaulters or late-game objective grabbers), and with multiple units you're more likely to be able to pull off double-charges (to help win the assault and avoid No Retreat wounds). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuGGzy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I have a list I made up that I have yet to try but I wanted to be very "fluffy". ECs 4 squads of NMs each with an icon and 4 squads of LSD (Demonettes) that I planned on using to tie up anyone that gets too close and wants to assault my NMs so I can move them out of assault range and blaze down anything left after the demonettes are done. They are super cheap and I just like the idea of it more than the practicality of the tactic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1858877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 i use them alot to support my csm squads that are holding objectives, have them breakout and charge any unit threatening to charge your objective hogging squad this ties them up pretty well. cheap, disposable and able to hold objectives should the need arise, whats not to like? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1859194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 thanks for all the great info everybody. In hindsight, I probably should have specified my 2000pt list a little better In total so far I'm running: chaos wings lord + death screamer (he will be a lot of fun!) 9 raptors inc champ Chaos sorc + wings 2x 7 man 1k sons /w rhino 2x 8 LSD 10 man CSM defiler vindicator 2x obliterator. I have plenty of anti infantry that can double as anti tank. all of the vehicles have demo possession, and I have 35 total infantry. The only thing that the LD's are providing me asides from being the 1k sons sweeping teams is that they add 16 extra bodies and 2 more scoring units. However, I could easily swap these guys out for another 10 CSM squad and have 4 scoring units that would be much, much hard to kill than a solid three plus 2 toss aways. The worse possible thing I could see happening with this list would be losing both rhinos before they get to their destinations (where the scoring units are located) which is a very possible situation. Not only would my Tsons be SOL, but the demons would be extremely ineffective as well. Also, the raptor squad + lord can easily fulfill the same duties as the LD's and do it just as effectively if not more so. It seems that all i'm really doing is playing with a little "surprise" like I tend to like to. With this in mind, I could easily drop both squds of LD's for a 10 man squad of CSM or add another raptor with a smaller squad of CSM. However, would this make it a more competative list? The only thing I would need to buy would be 1 more squad of CSM but other wise, I'm good to go with everything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1859405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Disciple Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Looking at your list I'd suggest of you can find the points giving either one of your HQs or the raptors an icon as the more you have the more choice you get on where to place those daemons. Also be careful of incurring Tzeentchs wrath as I see the Thousand Sons are being used in the sacred number of Nurgle!!! On the whole though your list looks solid enough. Disciple Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1859460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 the lord and the 1k sons all have Icons... Also, I know i should be running 9 but 2 squads of 9 is a heck of a lot of points Edit: So I was playing with my list and made my 1k sons 9 man groups and deleted a squad of LD's... its not what I wanted to do, but at exactly 2000 pts I have 2 9 man squads tson, a 9man LD's, and a 9 man raptors... Fluff indeed! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1859495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsoftaurus Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Also be careful of incurring Tzeentchs wrath as I see the Thousand Sons are being used in the sacred number of Nurgle!!! Not at all. The other two in each squad are obviously crewing the Rhinos. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1860070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Disciple Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Touche, you got me there sonsoftaurus :) Sorry Belfast I was just kidding with the Nurgle stuff. Disciple Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158615-optimized-use-of-lesser-sds/#findComment-1860444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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