LPetersson Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Instead of threadjacking I thought I'd ask this in it's own thread. Under the description for WGBGs it says that one in three WGBGs can take Heavy Weapons, but it doesn't specify that they have to be in the same unit... Hence, I believe that you can make two units with these loadouts: WGBL 3x WGBG - AC 1x WGBG - SB WBGL 4xWGBG - SS/TH Dirty Trick? Absolutely, but legal? I would say so... Any rules that say I shouldn't be able to do this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I'd refuse to play you, you've admitted it's a dirty trick (a rule exploit) yourself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 Do you usually go over opponents army to check that it conforms to what you consider to be a fair and balanced army list which you feel follows what you think should be allowed? Dirty trick =/= Rule exploit... And in any case, I didn't ask whether you wanted to play against me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Do you usually go over opponents army to check that it conforms to what you consider to be a fair and balanced army list which you feel follows what you think should be allowed? Dirty trick =/= Rule exploit... And in any case, I didn't ask whether you wanted to play against me... The fact you're going ultra defensive is showing me you know it's wrong. I play 1 in 3 per pack, not for the whole unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Its just 1 in 3 and it doesn't state where how which etc etc. So its not dirty its just legal. EG you could even take 20 wolfguard and have on unit of 7 wolfguard eqquiped with assaultcannons. You could even make them mastercrafted. BTW this was already explained before you know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanyPrawny Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I wouldn't say its a dirty trick either. Its what is stated however I rarely field more than a bodyguard of 4 wolf guard in my army anyway so its useless to me. Good to know though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 i would really call GW on this one. i wish i had my codex right now, but i do believe it is stated as you say. my concern about it is you buy each group individually, but they all count to a global pool of WG. most of us have already talked in a post about how cheesy stuff like 4 AssC or 4 CML in a squad will drive a lot of players to hate on the wolves. i think that by doing something like this, unless cleared up by GW, will make it so wolves wouldn't be seen at any tournaments, or seeing many games in general. i think it is a interesting idea though. but don't think it is as intended. ask you opponent before doing the WG thing, but keep the rest of your list secret. people tend to understand more if you try to talk it over with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Wolf Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 By the letter of the RAW you could argue that you could do what Brother Petersen is suggesting, But with the spirit of the ruling (in the same vein as the Blood Claw Power Fists) I would think it's for the pack. So many vagueries in the GW rules and then they are quite happy to answer ruling questions with, "oh, the main point is to have fun so don't worry about it." I like to have fun by winning, not by argueing rules... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 The fact you're going ultra defensive is showing me you know it's wrong.I play 1 in 3 per pack, not for the whole unit. No, I was disagreeing with you because I believe that dirty tricks =/= Rule exploits. I think a full Drop pod army is a dirty trick, but that doesn't mean it's against any rules. I also disagreed because you didn't bother sticking to the topic/question asked... Its just 1 in 3 and it doesn't state where how which etc etc. So its not dirty its just legal. EG you could even take 20 wolfguard and have on unit of 7 wolfguard eqquiped with assaultcannons. You could even make them mastercrafted. BTW this was already explained before you know. Ah, sorry, I did search but I didn't find anything of relevance. My search-fu is not as great as it could be... i would really call GW on this one. i wish i had my codex right now, but i do believe it is stated as you say. my concern about it is you buy each group individually, but they all count to a global pool of WG. most of us have already talked in a post about how cheesy stuff like 4 AssC or 4 CML in a squad will drive a lot of players to hate on the wolves. i think that by doing something like this, unless cleared up by GW, will make it so wolves wouldn't be seen at any tournaments, or seeing many games in general. i think it is a interesting idea though. but don't think it is as intended. ask you opponent before doing the WG thing, but keep the rest of your list secret. people tend to understand more if you try to talk it over with them. It probably is RAW rather than RAI. It not something I'll do regularly, but I'll do it against my friend who also has something sneaky up his little Eldar sleeves. Incidentally, I usuallt print out an extra copy of my army list and give it to my opponent when we start the game. that combined with a copy of C:SW will hopefully help them beat me next time... By the letter of the RAW you could argue that you could do what Brother Petersen is suggesting,But with the spirit of the ruling (in the same vein as the Blood Claw Power Fists) I would think it's for the pack. I like to have fun by winning, not by argueing rules... ;) I try not to argue rules during the game, hence why I ask here and on LiveJournal for opinions and rule clarifications :-) Cheers all, I'll probably give this a go against my mate who plays Eldar... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 It might legal, but I would never, ever, ever do it if it was. I dont think it is however. It does indeed say "1 in 3" however it never says they can be in different packs. Its certainly an interpretation either way, and I saw what your saying in the wording.... but the wording is vague. We are already better off than the other non-standard codices for space marines, and I feel it would behoove us to act with some humility. And if your not feeling fair and even-spirited with a hint of compassion for our brethren think of it in this more self helping way: Everything we abuse now is likely to bite us in the ass when the next codex comes out. Play responsibly, and with some self control in the twinking department and its likely to pay off big time for us with the next go around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 It might legal, but I would never, ever, ever do it if it was. I dont think it is however. It does indeed say "1 in 3" however it never says they can be in different packs. Its certainly an interpretation either way, and I saw what your saying in the wording.... but the wording is vague. We are already better off than the other non-standard codices for space marines, and I feel it would behoove us to act with some humility. And if your not feeling fair and even-spirited with a hint of compassion for our brethren think of it in this more self helping way: Everything we abuse now is likely to bite us in the ass when the next codex comes out. Play responsibly, and with some self control in the twinking department and its likely to pay off big time for us with the next go around. I know what you're saying, and I'm purely contemplating it for a 3k game against a friend who has 'something' up his sleeves... When I bring TDAs to the party I normally only bring one unit which makes this a moot point for me normally. And yes, I know only too well that there are a good few things that we can do which are morally grey at best... And I tend not to do them ;-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Just throwing out my opinion... if you want to do something with your mates its entirely up to you man. Heck, for all I care you can have an entire army with noting but assault 6 rending assault cannons. Doesnt mean Ill buy it :). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 i guess the way i feel is that when it come to the bodyguard part of the wolf guard, you buy them for a HQ choice. if it said some where that you buy all your wolf guard, separately and distribute them out as bodyguard and pack leaders during deployment, i would be more inclined to see it as a way that it could be done. i know they all count as a single elite choice, but the are different units in my mind. i also feel that that is why there are two different equipment/costs/headers in the wolf guard section. i guess i am on the same page as grey mage. i say go for it with your friends, but be careful in other situations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I must admit, I always read it as per pack rather than in total... either way it'll be gone in a few months and I don't have the bits to do it. In a Apocalypse game, you might be able to get away with it but IMHO it isn't worth it anywhere else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanyPrawny Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I agree with the latest posts, I'd possibly try it with a few mates as the dex will be changed soon enough that they can't really moan about it for long enough fr it to matter but in no way would I attempt it at a tourney or against strangers. That would be asking for trouble. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1858822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I would say that it is illegal!! The Wolf Guard bodyguard entry states (pg 8): "Wolf Guard Heavy Weapons: Up to one in three models in the Wolf Guard bodyguard (rounding fractions up) may be armed with..." The use of the phrase "in the Wolf Guard bodyguard" would mean to me that it is the squad and the first paragraph defines: "Squad: A Wolf Guard Bodyguard can consist of between 4 to 9 models. It must be assigned to a character that is allowed to have a bodyguard and the character and the bodyguard form a single unit." So 'the Wolf Guard bodyguard' is refering to the unit and not the whole army total of WGBG models. I feel this is too far since we get more than most squads anyway, and most opponents wouldn't like it much either. Hell you should see their faces when they see my six termie squad jump out of their pod with three armed with ass cannons while the other three have storm shields! If anyone can find a better logical arguement for it I'd love to hear about it. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1859324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I agree with G.A.K I always took it for meening wolf gaurd body gaurd not leader. they are 2 different types in my opinion. If somebody blatantly tried to bend the rules like the original poster, Legal or not by RAW or RAr or whatever I would not bother play them. I just find all this beardy lets look for loophole really sickening. Hence i hate tournies now. So much arguaing it takes the whole fun away from playing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1859777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Maybe if you read it correctly it says 20 wolfguard (including leader) form a single entry in the army. Only at the start of the game you split them up. So having 20 wolfguard and having 7 assaultcannons in it does allow you to put all those assault cannons in a single squad, while the others could be used elsewhere (even as wolfguard leaders when you included those in the 20 wolfguard entry) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1859893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I resectfully disagree to your characterization of the Wolf Guard as a single unit which is broken up. It says (pg8): "Wolf Guard can be used in two ways; they can either be assigned as a bodyguard for a character or they can be used as leaders for Space Wolves packs. Whichever way they are used, there can never be more than 20 Wolf Guard in the army altogether." Furthermore it goes on to state that if you use any WG models that they will use up an Elite slot in the FOC and does not state they are a single unit; they only "count as a single Elite unit choice". Which limits the number of scouts, dreads, or Iron Priests you can then use in your army to two other units total. And my previous post which clearly defines what a Wolf Guard bodyguard squad is would take precidence as the specific rules for the unit's use/equipment. G P.S. In the future if you feel that a passage is being mis-read, quote it! Don't just claim I'm not reading it, because your description of the passage isn't accurate; it says nothing about spliting them up at the start of the battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1859980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 G.A.K has it correct. We have enough goodies, no need to pigeon hole more where they do not fit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1860061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hmmm, I'm finding myself agreeing with G.A.K. here... Oh well, as Lord Ragnarok said, we have enough goodies and, IMO, enough flexibility as it is... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158688-interpretation-of-the-1-in-3-hw-rule-for-wgbgs/#findComment-1860082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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