Octavulg Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 So, I've decided that a good way to encourage interest in Epic in the local store would be to do something attention-grabbing (like the Horus Heresy). Should be pretty good - there's more than enough legions to go around, and I'm interested enough to do it even if the game doesn't take off. Plus, the lists can be as wildly unbalanced as necessary, since everyone has the same one. ^_^ However, there's a couple of tricks to making a pre-heresy legion, and I am 100% certain I don't know enough to do it unaided. So I'm here for help. Basically, I'm trying to compile a list of the war-machines and vehicles the various legions would have used. Modern SM stuff that apparently wasn't used in the Heresy Non-Destructor Predators (though I believe upgrading the sponsons to Lascannons was OK) Whirlwinds Battlebarges/Strike Cruisers Land Speeders (so sayeth the New Codex - discovered in the wake of the HH) Land Raider variants (except the Spartan, which only matters if I can get my hands on enough MkI Land Raiders) Current-model dreadnoughts (I have the old Chaos ones, in any case) Assault Cannons Stuff that was used: All other SM equipment Vindicators (they arrive halfway through, and opinion appears divided in any case. Plus, I was listening to Matt Ward. What's wrong with me?!) Land Speeders Jetbikes Moles and Termites The infamous Grav-Attacks Basilisks Fellblades and other super-heavies Librarians (with the apparent exception of the SW, RG, IF and DG) Chaplains Titans (though they're off in their Titan Legions) Moles and Termites Questions: Were MkII Land Raiders and such used? Or was it only the MkIs? Logically, there'd have been no need for the Spartan if the MkIIs were in circulation... What about air support? Were Thunderbolts and Marauders in use? How about Thunderhawks? What stuff am I missing? I'm sure there's lots of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightygoose Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 what about the tilvius land enigma??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1859040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 The what? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1859043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mightygoose Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The what? jeez, its the perported missing link in the STC templates, between rhino and land raider, it is referenced in IA rhino... i would assume it would be used pre heresy, and being a tank i think it would be worth considering for epic? no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1859053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 It would be, but I can't find a single mention of it in IA: Rhino. Nor in IA: Land Raider. There's the Land Crawler, but that's a tractor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1859215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Vindicators and land Speeders were in use Pre Heresy, theres considerably more backing that than a couple of throwaway lines.. Chaplains were in use after Nikea by technically all Legions, basilisks were never directly used by the Legions, but mopst Legions frequently used Imperial Army forces as the Imperiums military was not divided as it is now. Same with naval assets. The differences between land raiders are entirely superficial, use whatever you can get!. Never heard of the "tilvius land enigma", but given that the missing link was never discovered by the Imperium, i think its safe to say they arent using it :( Good idea btw! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1859835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Vindicators and land Speeders were in use Pre Heresy, theres considerably more backing that than a couple of throwaway lines.. OK. I don't have many of either in any case, so it's a bit of a moot issue. :lol: Still, they'll go back on the "approved" list. Chaplains were in use after Nikea by technically all Legions, Ah, good. I'll unrestrict them. basilisks were never directly used by the Legions, but mopst Legions frequently used Imperial Army forces as the Imperiums military was not divided as it is now. Same with naval assets. Right. I'll include some mention of auxilia as well. Though I am slightly tempted to keep artillery separate just on principle. The differences between land raiders are entirely superficial, use whatever you can get!. Sweetness. I only have eight of the MkIs, and that's not really enough for six to twelve companies. Good idea btw! Thank you. Of course, I owe at least partial credit to GW themselves, who put the idea in my head by setting Space Marine during the Heresy, but... I think it'll be fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1859989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 The Land Raider Spartan was developed for transporting Terminators, but as far as I can tell (comparing it to the RT rulebooks Land Raider stats) the modifications consisted of making it open-topped so the Terminators could jump out without the Land Raider having to stop first rather than being to make the transport of terminators possible in the first place. The standard MkII Land Raider is by default flat-topped, but the cover of EPIC 40,000 featured MkII's that were apparently open-topped, so theoretically any Land Raider could be Spartanized. MkII's were certainly in use by the time of the heresy, since Forge Wolds "Pre-Heresy" Land Raider is a MkII/III hybrid - one could even claim that the MkIII is in use since thats what the GW Chaos Land Raider is. The new vanilla Codex does state that the Whirlwind is post-heresy, however to my knowledge this is the first time this has ever been stated, and it contradicts Space Marine 1st edition which had them in common use (hell, half of the vehicle only scenarios required you to pretend the Rhino models were Whirlwinds) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 The standard MkII Land Raider is by default flat-topped, but the cover of EPIC 40,000 featured MkII's that were apparently open-topped, so theoretically any Land Raider could be Spartanized. OK. MkII's were certainly in use by the time of the heresy, since Forge Wolds "Pre-Heresy" Land Raider is a MkII/III hybrid - one could even claim that the MkIII is in use since thats what the GW Chaos Land Raider is. Excellent. I can merrily paint all my Land Raiders in Legion colors, then. :) The new vanilla Codex does state that the Whirlwind is post-heresy, however to my knowledge this is the first time this has ever been stated, and it contradicts Space Marine 1st edition which had them in common use (hell, half of the vehicle only scenarios required you to pretend the Rhino models were Whirlwinds) The Whirlwind I'm kind of on the fence about. They never let Chaos have them, for one, and Chaos equipment is supposed to be (more or less) pre-heresy. Plus, there's the blurb in the new codex. OTOH, there's plenty of things which clearly were used in the heresy that the new codex is clearly wrong about, so I may include them anyway. It nicely avoids the temptation to give marines Basilisks, for one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Assault cannons were also used pre heresy. The Emperors Childrens Dreadnaught Rylanor has one for certain in Galaxy In Flames also I believe that some units in TDA have them in False Gods when the Luna Wolves are on Davin's Moon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 They may exist in slight numbers, but the majority use autocannons instead. That's been established for so long I'm rather unwilling to adjust it. I'm trying for the baseline not the exception, here. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Land Speeders were definately Pre Heresy, as they were in use by the Imperial Army. Forget Matt Wards rubbish. Land Raiders are Land Raiders, so you're fine using that. I believe Whirlwinds are Post Heresy, Vindicators are an evolution of Siege Tanks used during the Crusade, now standardised. Feel free to use them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Fair enough. I'm likely going to post up the prospective army list in the next few days. :) It came together remarkably easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidbrock9 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm fairly certain that the original Epic game (Space Marine) focused on the Horus Heresy. I think the entire idea of the Heresy springs from that game, actually. It might not be a bad idea to do some research on that edition of Epic and see what weapons and vehicles were being used in that game. It will differ from modern visions of the Heresy, but it seems like a good starting point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Kase Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Don't forget Robots, Knights and the Ordinatus Engines. You can also check out Net EPic, they had run a bunch of HH stuff, and are a great Epic resource (more old school Epic though). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 I'm fairly certain that the original Epic game (Space Marine) focused on the Horus Heresy. 100% correct. I think the entire idea of the Heresy springs from that game, actually. It might not be a bad idea to do some research on that edition of Epic and see what weapons and vehicles were being used in that game. It will differ from modern visions of the Heresy, but it seems like a good starting point. The box itself apparently came with Rhinos and Land Raiders, plus some marines. Whirlwinds were apparently proxied. So Space Marine's not that helpful, unfortunately. Barring getting my hands on the actual book...which seems unlikely. * * * Don't forget Robots, Knights and the Ordinatus Engines. Robots, I had not forgotten. Knights seem tricky - I'm not clear on how they'd fit in other than as Auxilia to the Titan Legions. You can also check out Net EPic, they had run a bunch of HH stuff, and are a great Epic resource (more old school Epic though). Have to read the rules for it first. Tried looking without, and it made my head ache. For some reason, every major Epic resource has page design that makes my eyes bleed. Weird. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1860939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Kase Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 The original game was Adeptus Titanicus (IIRC) followed soon after by Space Marine. It was mostly Titans and Space Marines. The second run was Titan Legions and Space Marines - which had the Knights (an idea introduced between editions - IIRC) and a more detailed force org chart. I don't know why they insist on making such painful web pages, but you are right, it does seem to be a problem on most Epic sites :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1861051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 The basic Space Marine game (and Codex Titanicus which was a suppliment to both it and Adeptus Titanicus) included no form of force organisation - you just bought what you wanted. They did later publish full force organisational charts that required you to design entire regiments - Heresy era Space Marine regiments* were in WD126, as were the rules & fluff for Knights. *under then fluff pre/mid-heresy Space Marine Chapters were each comprised of up to 20 regiments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1861432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 WD126, eh? I will investigate, so I will... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/158737-epic-in-the-heresy/#findComment-1861792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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