Another C:D Newbie...

[Crovan]

First, as a bit of a preface, I have played CSMs for going on 12 years (Iron Warriors both before, during, and after their cool phase), and have returned to 40k after a hiatus of a couple of years. Right now, my primary army is Orks, but I could not stay away from the Ruinous Powers. I read the C:CSM, and a little bit of the 2e/3e player inside me died, so I bought C:D and felt like they were a good challenge and a nice "fun" army. Now, I am faced with the great decision of what kind of army to run. So far, I have only bought a Soul Grinder (freaking awesome model, plus I am a long-time Defiler fan), and a Bloodthirster (the old school Chaos player will not let me not buy one). At this point, I am leaning Khorne/Tzeentch, as I mentioned in another thread. I thought about going Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle, but I need some time to break out of my old 3e ways before I will let myself mix Tzeentch and Nurgle. Right now the plan is to run the BT and a couple of Heralds of Tzeentch on chariots, as well as having some Khorne chariot heralds for smaller (sub-2000) games.

 

Among the normal considerations when building my list, I have to remain cognizant of the fact that one of the more regular players at the FLGS usually packs along his Tau and a full GK DH army. Now, I know as soon as the BT comes out of my case, he is going to start salivating. Am I just hosed against Daemonhunters? I mean, I could pull a bait and switch and drop the Orks down :P, but, as was said above, I want to be able to bring my Daemons to friendly games for a bit of a good time, and save the Orks for "serious business" gaming, since they are actually good at it (finally!), while still being reasonably enjoyable/random. I don't see having a lot of fun getting NFW crammed into various orifices at every turn, and I know for a fact that he insists on playing with the ridiculously broken NFW rules as written in the DH codex (Hence the Thirster with his 2+ save against them). Most of the other players run the gamut (1 nidzilla, some vanilla marines, one deathwing...all things I can deal with), but I can't help but feel like I might as well not even put a model on the table against an all GK army. Am I being paranoid?

 

Sorry for the wall'o'text, but it's the summation of reading some of the threads on here, as well as the review linked a bit further down in the forum.

 

On a side note, what do people use for Herald chariots? I've only seen a few pictures, and those seem to be largely making use of Fantasy stuff suitably converted. While that would work for my Khornate heralds, I was looking for some inspiration for my "jetbike" Tzeentch guys. Even the base model for the Tzeentch herald is a bit of a head-scratcher for me, whereas I think the beefier, last generation Bloodletters would make a nice Khornate herald.

 

Any input on one or more of these issues would be greatly appreciated.

[Captain Malachi]

"A daemon need not fear the hunter, for the daemon is strong"]

 

Remember that. Daemonhunters are strong, and have some nasty tricks up their sleeve, but they still cost a metric crapton per man and die just as quick to power waepons (i.e. bloodletters).

 

You've picked a strong pairing, K/T is an excellent combination, Khorne will destroy your enemy in the assault phase, and your Tzeentchian elements can go toe to toe with the hunters in the shooting phase (though they'll lose out to tau). Don't forget that if he's focusing on your 'thirster the rest of your army is moving up unchallenged, and they'll do most of the damage anyway.

 

Herald chariots are usually made from fantasy models as you say. A thought for your consideration: Take the wheels off of a high elf chariot. No idea how well it would work but with some plasticard and Tzeentchian symbols it should work fairly well.

 

Finally, welcome to the warp :P

[==Me==]

If Daemonhunters build a true anti-Daemon army, consisting of Mystic Inquisitors, psycannons out the wazoo, Sancutary and Land Raiders it is almost impossible for a Daemon army to win. He can hit you on arrival with shots that ignore your invulnerable saves, create massive bubbles of "Daemon auto-die" and fields AV14 tanks that Daemons always have problems with. If they bring GKs life will be much easier.

 

Now, a Khorne/Tzeentch army is a fun mix. You've got your hard-hitting combat units backed by good shooting to make for a solid combo. Your speed may suffer, but you can take some speedy stuff to mitigate it.

 

The BT and 2 chariot Tzeentch Heralds is a solid HQ set up, especially when backed by Grinders. The BT and Grinders can soak up a ton of fire and dish out a bunch of damage, while the Heralds flit about zapping tanks. After that, Bloodletters and Horrors for scoring and general usefulness, Bloodcrushers for another rock hard unit, Flamers for burnination, Flesh Hounds for speed, and Screamers for LR killing.

 

As for the actual models, I'm probably going to end up doing a Fantasy Disc pulled by 2 Screamers. It's expensive, but looks so awesome.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

Out of curiosity, what rules does your GK opponent use? The reason I ask is that they take on a very different aspect if they go by Codex + official FAQ vs. say Codex + INAT FAQ 2.1. Codex: DH is rife with issues that don’t bode well in the 5th Edition context.

 

At their worst, GK’s will have their typical assortment of weapons that ignore INV saves. Then, based on interpretation, their Force Weapons also ignore the Eternal Warrior rule. Then based on other interpretations, Daemons cannot employ the ‘Sustained Attack’ rules, meaning that your units will not auto regenerate and be able to move back on the table like they would have in 3rd & 4th Editions.

 

Put that altogether and GK’s can really mess up a daemon army w/very little the Daemon player can do to counter. Not to say that it’s impossible it just takes some real planning to win a gave vs. GK’s under these conditions.

 

I guess you sure can’t argue against that from a fluff perspective but it sure can make for some challenging 40k games.

 

-OMG

[djkest]

For 5 points the Bloodthirster can get a power that gives him a 2+ invulnerable on psychic powers and force weapons. As far as the instant death for demons, you should let him know that you don't agree with that interpretation. Has GW made an official ruling on that? I just checked the errata and there is no ruling on that.

[Raptor1313]

Mr. Bloodthirster is actually in decent shape against the Daemonhunters. Who cares about losing your 4+ invulnerable when you can take a 3+ armor? It's all S6 guns to him.

 

Cover is also your friend, as a rule. Screw 'dangerous terrain' tests; most of your troops (other than Horrors and Monstrous Creatures, and perhaps tzeentch chariots) benefit from a 4+ cover save. Will it slow you down? Yes. Do you care? Not so much.

 

Tzeentch gives you some actual shooting, amazingly. For the Tzeentch core, I'd suggest the two heralds, 3ish units of 7-8 horrors with Bolt of Tzeentch, then see about Bloodcrushers. I would ALSO see about converting said bloodcrushers, because a short unit of four will set you out $100.

 

Me, I stumbled across my bloodthirster conversions quite by accident. Chaos Knights, except build as a centaur. You get five of 'em for $22, they look big and imposing, and you just need to pick up the 60mm bases. 25 Crushers (the full playset) will run you something like $150, which is a lot, but it's arguably one of the killiest units in our 'dex, and when you pair it with fire support, well, expect things to cry and die.

 

Beyond that, your assessment of the codex is pretty spot-on. WE've got some deadly units, but there's also an undercurrent of randomness in it. If you can laugh at things going good/bad for either player, then you'll enjoy the Daemons. If you want a hard-core, always-reliable army, you probably ought to have skipped daemons. We can win and win big, but we also have so many more opportunities for the dice to screw us.

[revnow]

@Djkest: First paragraph on page 50 of the BRB. The rules for DH force weapons are a noted legal exception to the general rules. Also, Daemons without assault grenade eqv. assault Grey Knights at initiative 1 due to the Rites of Exorcism rule. They can also take equipment which will halve your weapon skill (rounded down) and/or make engaged units assault at -1 initiative.

 

It is important to understand that with the increased success and therefore prevalence of both Codex: CSM and Codex: Daemons, that some of these more unique items may see a bit more play.

 

@Crovan: The Bloodthirster could be a problem for you, simply because a properly equipped Grand Master can statistically kill a Thirster without taking a single wound. I don't know how the regular at your place of gaming has their list setup so I can't comment specifically. Keep in mind though that the Thirster is really good against almost everything else (I know, I've been on the recieving end playing other armies), so that single player should not be a reason for you to make dramatic changes

 

As a Daemonhunter player I would say Tzeentch is your friend in so very many ways. A strong Tzeentch shooty list can make a DH player's life miserable. Also keep in mind that if a DH player is tailoring a list to beat Daemons it's going to be relatively weak against damn near everything else. Many Grey Knight players like to footslog and use psycannons. If this is the case, Breath of Chaos along with the myriad of other Daemon shooty tricks should absolutely wreak them. Your biggest concern is going to be mechanized lists, especially Tri-Raider.

 

You also need to be very smart/careful/and occasionally daring with your Daemonic Assault.

 

I don't mean to intrude on a nemesis race's thread, but I think that a lot of unnecessary potential conflict between Daemonhunter players and Daemon players can be avoided with proper communication. Fewer unwarranted surprises and arguments always mean better gaming.

[Raptor1313]

Hey, nothing wrong with intruding on a Nemesis' thread if it's contructive and promotes better gaming.

 

The DH codex is old and unlikely to be updated any time soon, so it IS best to sit down and hash it out with the other guy if it's a friendly game.

[Captain Malachi]

@Revnow: With the amount of anti-daemon advice I give out what you're doing is just making up for it ;)

 

As said though, the GK force weapon does instagib daemons, but only if they actually manage to hit, wound and then pass a psychic test, and since a bloodthirster hits at I6 on the charge, you should be able to kill him first (since he instagibs the GM too).

[revnow]

@Captain Malachi I thought the BT was only S7, and if the GM has sacred incense (which is likely) its still only I5 on the charge and I4 if charged. Additionally, a Grimoire of True Names drops the BTs WS to 5 (insane), and most GMs will have a Terminator retinue which means they can pawn off wounds while they try to kill the BT. Statistically though, a GM will only be able to do 1 wound a turn to a BT. I guess Daemons shouldn't just walk around letting people write their names down in books. :)

[Captain Malachi]

S8 on the charge without unholy might, S9 with it, pretty nasty when you have 6 attacks on the charge as well. Basically, on the charge, you're looking at 6 S9 attacks, I5 and WS5, provided the GM has both incense and grimoire, and thanks to his wings he will get the charge. The body guard is a problem, but that's why you never run him on his own, you make sure he has bloodletter support. Thing I love about the grimoire, is the GM somehow has enough time to recognise this bloodthirster and look up his name in a big old book that must have millions of names in it, before the big guy kicks his head in.

[revnow]

". . .mumble mumble I know it's in here somewhere, Phargae, Phargan, Phar O GOD MY TORSO MY PRECIOUS TORSO!!!!"

 

Maybe he looked it up beforehand and is just gonna throw the thing at the Bloodthirster as a distraction.

 

With the popularity of mechanized armies in 5th Edition a Daemon player should not be so sure about delivering the charge. Also, if the Bloodthirster charges it does so at initiative 1, meaning it would hit after both the retinue and GM, a dangerous position to be in. In any case I would highly recommend that a Daemon player take blessing of the blood god whenever possible when fighting Daemonhunters with a GM.

[Captain Malachi]

Also, if the Bloodthirster charges it does so at initiative 1

 

......................I knew that..........................(bugger)

 

Yes though, blessing is mandatory in all cases, as far as I'm concerned (and I've said this a lot before) a bloodthirster base cost is 275, might and blessing are standard.