Targeter use.

[guillaume]

I have read a few threads about how good or useless targeters are for justicar (although at 1pt...)

 

I have played with targeters before, and found them to be pretty useless indeed.

 

Until i reread the entry. It says: it allows to pre-measure the range to a target before they decide who to shoot at in the shooting phase.

 

Now, nowhere in that statement does it say that measurement has to be done at the begining of the shooting phase, which is what I always done.

 

Presumably, at the beginning of my turn, before moving any of my units, I can decide to use my targeters. Is that right?

 

This will help me decide who to shoot during the shooting phase.

 

At which point, it makes targeter slightly more useful. Because now I have some measurements of the field before movement, and so I can decide to move 4" backward instead of 6" if I know that 4" will still allow me to be within 24" of the storm bolter range, and not move back too far.

 

Also, as its says: it allows to pre-measure the range to a target before they decide who to shoot at in the shooting phase.

 

I cant help but notice that people using the targeter to measure range to several targets is out of RAW.

 

A little clarification would be helpful.

[Inquisitor Agrippa]

In way of clarification always remember that Codex trumps Rulebook unless an FAQ or Errata states otherwise.

 

As such, targeters DO allow you to measure range to a target before deciding. So it would allow you to change your mind and re-measure to another target if so necessary. Though you are allowed that by standard RAW this is not allowed, it is trumped by the wording in the codex. As well, target designation is done in the shooting phase so any movement must be finished before you start measuring firing range and picking targets. So all movement must be done before measuring and in no way should a Targeter be used before moving.

[panbient]

keep in mind that (at least in the WH codex) the entry for the targeter also clearly states that any 'guess' range weapons cannot be fired after using a targeter. so you can't use some stormtroopers as a radar to optimize your SoB DG bolter shots.

[revnow]

I use them to pre measure distances in the shooting phase to squads I intend to assault.

[Nicoca]

In the WH codex the wording of the rules is "you can choose to premeasure the range to a target before you shoot at in the shooting phase." This seems to leave it to various interpretation and by RAW, both are correct. It all depends on how your read it, either:

 

(1) you are allowed to premeasure the range in your shooting phase and only your shooting phase

 

or

 

(2) you are allowed to premeasure the range in any phase before you decide which unit to shoot at in your shooting phase

 

Key to the interpretation, but i'm no grammer expert, is the lack of a comma in the rules. for a direct quote:

 

"Models equpiied with a targeter are allowed to premeasure the range to a target before they decide who to shoot at (v) in the shooting phase."

 

Now if there was a comma where (v) was then interpretaion (1) would be raw however, as it sits now, interpretation (2) is entirely acceptable due to RAW.

 

I think i've explained it but if i've confused anyone or need to explain it any more just ask.

 

On your second point, about only being allowed to choose a single target thingy, it seems that RAW fails to mention targets (note the plural) so it would seem that you could only measure to one and if you were out of range, you couldn't shoot at them as per normal rules, but you also couldn't shoot at anyone else because the targeter rules only specifyone target. If this was the case then what would be the point in targeters. Although one most take into account the whole "before you decide who to shoot at" part. This seems to allow you to change your mind about dedicating your unit to shooting at an invalid target (for whatever reason) which, in the steps of shooting, comes before loosing your shots, as if there never was any descision, thereby allowing you to choose another target as though the first one was never shot at or considered a valid target.

[panbient]

In the WH codex the wording of the rules is "you can choose to premeasure the range to a target before you shoot at in the shooting phase." This seems to leave it to various interpretation and by RAW, both are correct. It all depends on how your read it, either:

 

(1) you are allowed to premeasure the range in your shooting phase and only your shooting phase

 

or

 

(2) you are allowed to premeasure the range in any phase before you decide which unit to shoot at in your shooting phase

 

Key to the interpretation, but i'm no grammer expert, is the lack of a comma in the rules. for a direct quote:

 

"Models equpiied with a targeter are allowed to premeasure the range to a target before they decide who to shoot at (v) in the shooting phase."

 

Now if there was a comma where (v) was then interpretaion (1) would be raw however, as it sits now, interpretation (2) is entirely acceptable due to RAW.

 

I think i've explained it but if i've confused anyone or need to explain it any more just ask.

 

you're also avoiding the 2nd part of the entry "after you have used a targeter then any guess range weapons may not be fired that turn". which would limit your entire shooting phase to only models equipped with the targeter if you chose to start measuring before the shooting phase. no exorcist missiles, no SoB bolters, no LR lascannons, nothing but hellguns.... WOOOooooo. :P

 

basically the way i've used targeters (and have yet to run into an issue) is to wait to shoot with my ISTs until the end of my shooting phase. i use the targeter to see who's in range, and as revnow mentionned, as way to gauge charge range. it's not supposed to be a make or break piece of wargear.

[King Tiger]

umm.....excorsist missiles, sob boltguns and lascannons are not guess range weapons, they have no G's next to them

[Alanter]

panbient, 'guess range' is an old rule that does not appear in the new rulebook. In the old days whirlwinds and other indirect firing weapons had to guess the range. If they guessed 6" under the real range, the missile lands 6" befor the target.

 

King Tiger[/] is right. There are no more guess weapons in the game.

[Kasthan]

I think its in the FAQ (but not certain) you should do them last after everything else. This prevents 'cheating' (whether planned or not). For example, you have a different unit (1) next to them (storm troopers etc.) you premeasure and find out if the unit (1) is in range at the same time or whether to run them etc., people don't like this.

I have 2 Inquisitorial storm trooper squads and find targeters useful but not brilliant.

[number6]

There are no more guess weapons in the game.

There are still a scant few. The Tau Empire codex's Airbursting Fragmentation Projector is such a weapon, for example, as is the Imperial Guard Mortar. True, "Guess" as a weapon type is disappearing from the game, but it isn't quite gone yet.

 

Page 32 of the BRB notes that Guess weapons should now count as Barrage weapons in all respects.

[Alanter]

Page 32 of the BRB notes that Guess weapons should now count as Barrage weapons in all respects.

 

That's it. They are effectivly out of the game. <_<

 

edit:

Kasthan there is no such point in the faq. You can use them when ever you want during the shooting phase.

[revnow]

Measuring "for" other units, and measuring to determine assault range are precisely why they are so valuable.

[panbient]

panbient, 'guess range' is an old rule that does not appear in the new rulebook. In the old days whirlwinds and other indirect firing weapons had to guess the range. If they guessed 6" under the real range, the missile lands 6" befor the target.

 

King Tiger[/] is right. There are no more guess weapons in the game.

 

my bad. i took 'guess' range as something where you had to estimate the range prior to measuring, which would basically be anything without a targeter. must be a 3rd edition rule or older. sorry about the confusion

[Inquisitor Fox]

my bad. i took 'guess' range as something where you had to estimate the range prior to measuring, which would basically be anything without a targeter. must be a 3rd edition rule or older. sorry about the confusion

No, you got it right :tu: It used to be literally guessing the range, as per Warhammer Fantasy artillery (which is where I was good at it). Mortars, the Tau AFP, Basilisks, Griffons, Whirlwinds.. basically all the artillery barrages used guessing plus scatter and deviation to determine where the templates landed. They're not totally gone yet, but you probably won't really run into them that much any more. You're probably safe now.

[Nicoca]

think its in the FAQ (but not certain) you should do them last after everything else.

 

Maybe Demonhunters but not Witchhunters (just had a look). As guess range weapons are now replaced with barrage weapons then it makes targeters the best value for points wargear, IMO, in the game. 1pt for accurate shooting of my Plasma Cannons, yes please.

 

Edit: Looked in the DH FAQ and couldn't see anything about targeters.

[jeffersonian000]

Guess range weapons are now called Barrage weapons in 5th Ed, per pg32 of the BRB, second paragraph.

 

I would assume that if you take no barrage weapons, then targeters could be used at any time without penalty.

 

SJ

[Alanter]

Guess range weapons are now called Barrage weapons in 5th Ed, per pg32 of the BRB, second paragraph.

 

I would assume that if you take no barrage weapons, then targeters could be used at any time without penalty.

 

SJ

 

No, 'guess range' and 'barrage' weapons are not the same. You can just simply ignore the sentence in the targeter's rule telling about guess range weapons. There are rules in the DH codes that just do not fit the rules - remember the teleport homer.

Using the targeter doesn't prevent the use of any weapon!

[Bucky]

So it is not a faq that is saying that you can use the targeter in the movement phase, it is the interpretation of the how it is written?

[Nicoca]

Yep, thats the one. It seems that bad grammar in the codex would allow us to use the Targeters in any phase, though this would be argued a lot i think, and would have no negative reprucussions whatsoever on the army using it.

[jeffersonian000]

No, 'guess range' and 'barrage' weapons are not the same. You can just simply ignore the sentence in the targeter's rule telling about guess range weapons. There are rules in the DH codes that just do not fit the rules - remember the teleport homer.

Using the targeter doesn't prevent the use of any weapon!

 

 

BRB, pg 32, second paragraph: "Note that in older Codex books barrage weapons were identified by a G (guess) before their range (e.g. Range: G48"). This is the same as having the word 'barrage' under their Type."

 

So, yes, guess range weapons are barrage weapons. Which means that targeters will prevent the use of allied or inducted barrage weapons if used first. Btw, per the Daemonhunters Summary at the back of the DH Codex, there are no guess range weapons in the Ordo Malleus armoury.

 

SJ

[Inquisitor Agrippa]

Btw, per the Daemonhunters Summary at the back of the DH Codex, there are no guess range weapons in the Ordo Malleus armoury.

 

SJ

 

 

True enough my friend. It's more to do with the ability to intermix with marines or guard who at the time had such weapons.

 

Overall, GW should find a better way to sort things out then some of these half-assed Errata and FAQs they toss around.

[Melissia]

Targeters would, thus, only prevent mortars used by allied guards. Amusing.

[King Tiger]

Targeters would, thus, only prevent mortars used by allied guards. Amusing.

except there not guess weapons

[Melissia]

A lot of people would argue otherwise-- that they "count as" barrage weapons, but they're still labeled guess weapons.

[King Tiger]

A lot of people would argue otherwise-- that they "count as" barrage weapons, but they're still labeled guess weapons.

allot of things are labeled as G weapons still, but they don't suffer