Dreadnoughts, consolidation, and smoke launchers.

[Davidson]

If a dreadnought makes a consolidation move from winning close combat can it use smoke after it makes it's consolidation move?

 

I'm leaning towards yes as it does not say in what phase the smoke launcher can be used, only "after completing it's move..."

 

Example. My dread is in close combat with necrons during the start of my turn. In the HTH phase of my turn I wipe out the necrons and make a 4 inch consolidation move of 3 inches and at the end of that move, pop smoke.

[eyescrossed]

No, I don't think it can.

[rat of vengence]

Well, the rules don't specify the movement phase, but after saying you can use it after you move, go on to say you can't shoot in the same turn. I would suggest the intent is clearly that you use smoke after it moves in the movement phase. But RAW? You can probably get away with it (as long as you didn't shoot in the shooting phase of course) depending on if you want to be 'that' player. :P

 

RoV

[jeffersonian000]

I concur, the timing for smoke is during the movement phase, after a unit has completed its move.

 

SJ

[SeattleDV8]

Although it is implied that you can pop smoke after running. In that it is mentioned in the Walkers Shooting section on pg.72.

To be sure it's only clear that you can run and pop smoke, not when you do it (the end of movement or the end of running)

[nighthawks]

doesn't really matter - the smoke obscures the target (vehicle / walker) not the place where it was popped.

 

I'll weigh in on the side of after move / run, but not after assault consolidation.

[Caleth]

Seems a little to much like wishful reading. Clever as it is I'd have to go with probably not valid. But talk to your gaming group/ store owner and see what they say.

 

Edit: spelling

[Isiah]

Yes I've always read and played it as being used after movement only. To be honest I've never even considered it after a consolidation move :D.

[Caleth]

Isiah, I know makes me wish I was that tricky. It's a brilliant gambit, I just don't think it's valid, the rules lawyer in my group would either have a heart attack or dread sock me if i tried it. But he's a dirty Eldar and is just jealous that he doesn't get cool things like smokes.

[Davidson]

Slightly related, the space marine scout bikes have cluster mines that they can booby trap terrain pieces with.

"cluster mines are automatically triggered the first time a unit (friendly or enemy) moves into the booby trapped terrain.

Now keep in mind that those mines could be triggered in any phase.

Movement, gaunts walk into the woods

Shooting, gaunts run into the woods

Assault phase, gaunts assault into/through the woods

Assault phase, gaunts make a consolidation move into the woods.

[jubei124]

Granted it's not exactly RAW but my group uses smoke launchers in the shooting phase. We just figured that the vehicle section in the BRB basically dealt with the 3 phases in order (move,shoot,assault) and that the smoke launcher listing came during the shooting phase. Since it was after vehicle shooting and before vehicles and assault. Not exactly RAW but works for us. It also works with walkers being able to run then pop smoke.

 

 

edit for spelling

[SeattleDV8]

Really doesn't matter when as long at the vehicle gets the effects from the smoke,just remember to use it early and often (well once a game anyway)

[Bonham1963]

Page 62 covers when you launch smoke in the BRB. Smoke launched after move and counts as the shooting phase. No other weapons can be used.

[nighthawks]

choose your words more carefully, Bonham1963 - smoke does not "count as" the shooting phase, the vehicle that uses smoke may not fire weapons that turn. walkers may still run and use smoke, so it is clear that they still have a shooting phase.

[Davidson]

Page 62 covers when you launch smoke in the BRB. Smoke launched after move and counts as the shooting phase. No other weapons can be used.

 

 

Incorrect, it says after completing it's move. There are more than one type of movement.

[Bonham1963]

You can launch your smoke after you move. You cannot shoot and launch smoke in the same turn. Page 62 covers it anyways.

[Bran Scalphunter]

Quick question- can Land Raiders use the Machine Spirit to fire a weapon even after using smokes? I wouldn't use it, but since GW's with Codex>Rulebook now, it should be legal (although sneaky).

[Legatus]

Of course there are several different ways a model can be "moved", but for game terms, it has to be distinguished between 'Move', 'Run', 'Assault',' Consolidate' and 'Fall Back'.

 

 

Indicator 1: See Dangerous terrain Tests. You are told specifically for which of the above you have to take the test. It does not merely say "when moving into dangerous terrain in any way".

 

- Page 12 (Move): Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move.

 

- Page 16 (Run): Running movement is not affected by difficult terrain - it is always simply D6" - but models running through dangerous terrain must test as normal.

 

- Page 34 (Assault): Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model.

 

- Page 40 (Consolidate): Units making a consolidate move are not slowed by difficult terrain and do not trigger dangerous terrain tests.

 

- Page 45 (Fall Back): Fall back moves are not slowed by difficult terrain, but tests for dangerous terrain are taken as normal.

 

 

Indicator 2: Some weapons deny move and assault, some only deny move but allow assault.

 

- Page 28, Rapid Fire Weapons: Models armed with a rapid fire weapon can move and fire two shots at a target up to 12" away. (...)

Models that shoot with rapid fire weapons in the Shooting phase cannot assault into close combat in the ensuing Assault phase.

 

- Page 29, Heavy Weapons: If a unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons - they can either move or shoot, but not both. (...) Units that fire heavy weapons in the Shooting phase may not assault into close combat in the Assault phase.

 

 

Indicator 3: Units that deep strike cout as moved, are allowed to run, but cannot assault. See page 95.

 

 

Clearly the rules often distinguish between the different types of "movement".

[nighthawks]

Quick question- can Land Raiders use the Machine Spirit to fire a weapon even after using smokes? I wouldn't use it, but since GW's with Codex>Rulebook now, it should be legal (although sneaky).

no - the vehicle may not shoot when it uses smoke. What or Who fires the gun is irrelevant.

[Warp Angel]

Hrm...

 

Is there any reason why you can't fire smoke while IN close combat (after you're done moving), before assault occurs.

 

You're clearly not shooting into CC. You're not firing a weapon.

 

Assuming you'd won, you'd be protected by smoke during the enemy's shooting phase, and regardless of winning would have a chance against deviated template weapons.

 

Thoughts?

[nighthawks]

it's just not covered directly. some would argue that the assault move cannot occur after smoke as the smoke must be used at the end of the "move". others might not have a problem with the smoke being used in assault, though noting that it has no in-assault effect.

 

people debate whether the smoke may or may not be used after consolidating (OP's ?)- it is a movement, after all.

 

all forms of movement ARE "it's move" (BRB P.62) but then again, "it's move" would be the movement phase, specifically as in the vehicles section this rule is clear that it occurs after movement, as vehicles only have movement and shooting phases. walkers don't have the same cut and dry phases as other vehicles, and DO have the clarification that they may Run and then use smoke, indicating by the location of this note (the walkers shooting section) that smoke is meant to be used in the owner's movement phase or, as allowed, after running in the shooting phase.

[Legatus]

The rules for walkers don't necessarily say that it can use the smoke launchers after running. It merely says that they can be used in the same turn. Running prevents them from firing and assaulting that turn. Assaulting would come after the running. Firing would be done instead of the running. They cannot fire or assault that turn, but they can still trigger the smoke launchers. The way it is written could imply a sequence, but it could also be refering to the actions during the whole turn.

[nighthawks]

I was simply noting that the vehicle rules in general are simplistic with respect to the various movements that an infantry or walker model could perform. the smoke rules are in the vehicles shooting and the walker shooting sections. the evidence is that smoke occurs in the shooting phase, run or no. if you have a different read, then play it your way. GW encourages such house-rule clarifications.

[Legatus]

Well, for vehicles it is in the "vehicles being shot at" section, directly next to the rules for vehicles behind cover or being obscured, which is where smoke launchers come in. It is not among the rules for vehicles using their own weapons, which ends three pages earlier. For walkers, it is a reminder, given in parenthesis, when it's option to run during the shooting phase is described. Smoke Launchers could certainly be seen as a substitute for the vehicles shooting. But while you might interprete the rules for walkers so that the smoke launchers are used after running, the vehicle smoke launcher rules are more specific about it being during the movement phase.