A newbie

[Deathlocks]

I'm reading Fulgrim now, and no offence to any lovers out there, but the first few pages were actually pretty tough to get past, but now that i'm a decent size way through the book, it reminds me of why i picked up the HH books in the first place :D

 

I agree with having to read the first three first, because it really answers the main question of the entire heresy, how did horus fall from grace?

 

oh, and the fact that galaxy in flames had the most amazing battle in it kinda makes it enjoyable to read

[jakiwis]

I suggest reading the 1st 5 books in sequence. Decent and Abyss doesnt really have that deep an impact to the 5 previous books but Mechanicum does and Legion is a must read.

 

If I were to rate the books (which is really hard since together they make the whole HH complete) it would be:

 

1- Horus Rising (because it was the first and gave the HH the great start it needed)

2- Fulgrim (it was long and a little hard read at first but it was really written as a tragedy and felt really emotional after reading it. It's a deep read and not really recommeneded for the non thinking types- no offense. It showed how a Primarch and his legion could fall using their own Ideals (perfection) and it was a tragedy that brought everyone with them down. It was supposed to be a little extreme since it deals with slaanesh but the whole story of it was deep and very tragic. Specially since I was really wondering why the Emperor's Children would fall despite having the Emperor's favor and this shows it. I would rate this number 1 but if not for Horus Rising, the HH wouldnt have started on the right track)

3- Galaxy in Flames (same as #2 but in a lesser extent)

4- Legion

5- Mechanicum (it shows alot of info)

6- Flight (I wold rate this and mechanicum together but I like the new info provided in Mechanicum)

7- Abyss ( same as #6 but it's my bias against UM that gets me to rate this low)

8- THe Dark Angels book - no comment

[eyescrossed]

I suggest reading the 1st 5 books in sequence. Decent and Abyss doesnt really have that deep an impact to the 5 previous books but Mechanicum does and Legion is a must read.

 

If I were to rate the books (which is really hard since together they make the whole HH complete) it would be:

 

1- Horus Rising (because it was the first and gave the HH the great start it needed)

2- Fulgrim (it was long and a little hard read at first but it was really written as a tragedy and felt really emotional after reading it. It's a deep read and not really recommeneded for the non thinking types- no offense. It showed how a Primarch and his legion could fall using their own Ideals (perfection) and it was a tragedy that brought everyone with them down. It was supposed to be a little extreme since it deals with slaanesh but the whole story of it was deep and very tragic. Specially since I was really wondering why the Emperor's Children would fall despite having the Emperor's favor and this shows it. I would rate this number 1 but if not for Horus Rising, the HH wouldnt have started on the right track)

3- Galaxy in Flames (same as #2 but in a lesser extent)

4- Legion

5- Mechanicum (it shows alot of info)

6- Flight (I wold rate this and mechanicum together but I like the new info provided in Mechanicum)

7- Abyss ( same as #6 but it's my bias against UM that gets me to rate this low)

8- THe Dark Angels book - no comment

What about False Gods?

[Pacific81]

False Gods was probably my biggest dissapointment of the series - I would say the biggest underlying plot of the entire series (i.e. how Horus turns against the Emperor), and its not just that I completely disagree in the way that it was done, but also how it was written. I wish in some ways that McNeil could have written Fulgrim first, because the story in that book is far more logical but also more emotionally powerful - I don't know why McNeil didnt make more of an effort with False Gods, maybe time constraints, maybe Fulgrim was better because of the experience he had gained from writing that book *shrug*

 

But, the problem is now that the entire pre-cursor for the entire Heresy taking place is built on an extremely shaky premise, and serves to cast the whole context of the plot into doubt.

[jakiwis]

What about False Gods?

 

ooops! Sorry! I would rate it between legion and mechanicum purely for the big role it had in showing how horus turned. It was an ok read for me, nothing too spectacular but still a good read :)

 

I really got into Warhammer and Warhammer 40k for the fluff. I collect more books than armies (I only have a 1498pt salamander army) and its really the books that got me into Warhammer40k :)

[jakiwis]

False Gods was probably my biggest dissapointment of the series - I would say the biggest underlying plot of the entire series (i.e. how Horus turns against the Emperor), and its not just that I completely disagree in the way that it was done, but also how it was written. I wish in some ways that McNeil could have written Fulgrim first, because the story in that book is far more logical but also more emotionally powerful - I don't know why McNeil didnt make more of an effort with False Gods, maybe time constraints, maybe Fulgrim was better because of the experience he had gained from writing that book *shrug*

 

But, the problem is now that the entire pre-cursor for the entire Heresy taking place is built on an extremely shaky premise, and serves to cast the whole context of the plot into doubt.

 

Just curious, how shaky was the premise? I am also quite vexed with that. When we talk about the Horus' turn, they do say it's shaky at best. I never really got it, it might be my slow mind but it does seem sound enough.

 

Sorry to hijack the thread :)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Its worth noting that Horus hasn't turned fully yet. He's turned against the Emperor, sure, but he's only just started to dice with daemons. At the moment they are just means to an end, namely overthrowing the Emperor's 'corrupt' rule. He has yet to become the whole Primarch-killing uber-Champion of All Chaos that we know him as.

[eyescrossed]

Ah... I see <_<

[Pacific81]

Its worth noting that Horus hasn't turned fully yet. He's turned against the Emperor, sure, but he's only just started to dice with daemons. At the moment they are just means to an end, namely overthrowing the Emperor's 'corrupt' rule. He has yet to become the whole Primarch-killing uber-Champion of All Chaos that we know him as.

 

My bold in the quote above - we are told that Horus has fought at the forefront of the Emperor's armies for nigh on 200 years. As one of the 1st Primarchs discovered, and from reading many different sources, it is obvious that the Emp had a special opinion of Horus. Consider the battles they have fought together, the cases of where they have fought side by side, of the Empire they have created together. 200 years is a very long time, I can't imagine the strength of the bond that must have fought between them, and a relationship which in many ways must have been closer than a son to his father.

 

So as a consequence imagine the depth of soul searching and reasoning which Horus must have gone through before he realised that yes, perhaps it is better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven, and that the Emperor must be usurped. That he must cast out and possibly murder astartes loyal to him, and also risk conflict the likes of which the Imperium will never have seen before (remembering that the mere thought of one marine hurting another at the beginning of Horus Rising is unthinkable). But do we read anything about this? No.. far easier to use a plot device (explained merely by the fact it is chaos, which removes any need for causality on the part of the writer) and completely disregard any form of rational discourse. Yes, we are told that Horus looks troubled and is in a darkened mood, but this is a marked difference to Fulgrim in which we see his fall from grace, step by agonising step, and descent into chaos.

 

So, I think Horus' eventual consort with daemons is important, but for me this is the eventual effect, and far more important is the reasons why he had made these decisions in the first place.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So, I think Horus' eventual consort with daemons is important, but for me this is the eventual effect, and far more important is the reasons why he had made these decisions in the first place.

 

Hmm, I don't see it as any one point in time that Horus turns fully. Certainly the biggest step is the events at Isstvaan III, in effect Horus crossing the Rubicon. That point of no return is definitely a single point in time, but Horus has still to make the decisions about going further and further into his pact with the Chaos Gods.

[mightygoose]

After that well need to wait & see (pray to the chaos gods for a Iron Warriors one that also include the Iron Cage even if it after the seige)

 

IP

 

yes, that would rock but i imagine its a way off yet, although it could give an insight into what fits where as to legion numbers and activities during the scouring(virtually no IW references)

[jakiwis]

I agree with pacific81 that Fulgrim's fall came step by step but in a way, Horus's fall came with an overt catalyst (Erebus) while Fulgrim went at it a a slower pace. Also, with Horus, Erebus had the goal to turn Horus to Chaos while Fulgrim didnt really know anything about the sword he was weilding. He even thought the the voices he was hearing was his own thoughts. So I would say Horus got the fast track to chaos while Fulgrim took the scnenic route.

[Pacific81]

Let me put this another way - If I were a commander in an army, and I decided to turn traitor, kill my own troops, and then take control, what is the bigger issue? The fact that I am following through with the treachery in the first place, or whether I decide to use a gun or a knife to achieve my goals? Horus viewed Chaos as a means to an end, at least at the beginning when he made the decision to turn agains the Emperor, and not an end in itself.

 

Combine this with all of the things I mentioned in my previous post - of how Horus has fought alongside the Emperor for so long, and is trusted even more so than a son. Indeed, there is one example about how Dorn and Gulliman had expressed concern over how Mortarion only seemed comfortable in the prescence of Horus, and his loyalty to the Emperor was questioned - the Emperor disregarded these concerns with a wave of a hand, as after all loyalty to Horus was de facto loyalty to the Emperor. The fact that the Emperor named Horus Warmaster, and put him in charge of Terra's armies after Ullanor is just one other example of the bond that existed between them. I could go on with many examples, but the point remains that this relationship between Horus and the Emperor was beyond question.

 

The Horus Heresy has often been regarded as an analogy of 'Paradise Lost' by Milton, of how Satan was cast down from heaven by God, and after tempting Adam from Eden gave man the concept of free will. So one could make the connection that Horus (Satan) has decided mankind must be freed from the dominion of the Emperor (God). There are many other similarities between the concepts, although unfortunately the reasons behind the fall of Horus are somewhat more ambiguous than Satan, the latter at least supposing some ideology behind his wish to upset the applecart, namely the free will of mankind, and the ability to choose ones own heaven or hell as they saw fit.

 

But what of Horus? We read about his frustration about the Emperor returning home. We read about his annoyance that civilians are beginning to orchestrate affairs at the expense of his warriors, and we know of the constant needling he receives from such characters as Erebus and some of the other Primarch's anxiety at the situation. Are we then to expect that any of these reasons, or even all of them combined, could be responsible for Horus willing to overthrow his father, a crusade lasting 200 years, and risk the future of the human race? Unfortunately there is just not enough 'meat' in this background to even comprehend his actions of turning traitor. A mastermind such as Horus would surely have only made such a decision based on a massive internal dialogue and conflict, but we are presented with virtually none of this.

 

And so the plot device, or 'anathema'. Rationality, causality doesn't matter a damn, because Horus is now acting outside the remit of conventional wisdom, because he was stabbed with a magic sword. Why not give him a white cat to stroke, and give the Emperor go-go-gadget arms to fight him with while we are at it?

 

I'm sorry to moan on and on about this, but its only because I believe we have been sold short on how and why the Heresy took place. Essentially the 'keystone' of the entire story, the foundation on which everything else we are to read as part of this fantastic story series, is built on the flimsiest of premises, or at least childish conceptions of things being inherently 'good' or 'evil'. As I have mentioned, Fulgrim did a far better job of convincing me how and why the Primarch of the EC made the decisions that eventually lead to his damnation, but its almost as though McNeil perhaps learned from False Gods, or at least was given free-reign with page count to write the entire story. It certainly shows in the former, speaking personally the emotional impact of that book left me reeling at the tragedy of it all, and of the greatest of opportunites lost forever because of human fallability. The important word there being 'human', for such things will always hold far more attraction to us than otherwordly concepts which exist only within the confines of the novel.

 

In summary I will always hope that McNeil will return to False Gods, and flesh out the middle hundred pages into a book of its own. Such a grand story deserves much more than we have been presented with thus far in my opinion.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Essentially the 'keystone' of the entire story, the foundation on which everything else we are to read as part of this fantastic story series, is built on the flimsiest of premises, or at least childish conceptions of things being inherently 'good' or 'evil'.

 

The bolded bit I agree with, but I consider it to be tied in with the fact that despite the Primarchs being awesome demi-gods, they are still ultimately childish squabbling siblings. It's what makes them fallible. Had it just been an encounter with a giant Bloodthirster tempting Horus with the power of Chaos, chances are he wouldn't have fallen for it.

[jakiwis]

Granted False Gods was way weaker than Fulgrim in terms of a primarchs fall but I still think that Horus had alot of outside help in getting him corrupted. Also it just proves that Primarchs are human and for me even less. I mean Perturabo being so whiny and all. The whole dream sequence also played Horus's pride and other weaknesses of character. Though it could have been improved but it was already there, a few more pages would have helped. BUt I think Fulgrim was given his own time to get corrupted while Chaos was kinda rushing Horus to join them.

 

I do think that comparing it to fulgrim, it's really weaker but I think Mcneil learned from False Gods or maybe he had more leeway with Fulgrim since Horus is so important in the whole series and had to tread on safer ground.

[eyescrossed]

Thankyou for getting the thread back on track jakiwis.

[chromedog]

I've only read 'GiF' and Mechanicum. BL books still tend to be like artillery support for me. It's either hit, or missed by so far it's not even on your radar anymore. I liked Mechanicum. I especially like the mention of the two struck off legions - even if it is a throwaway line. I've flicked through a couple of others, but was overall not too impressed by them.

 

Then again, there are VERY few GW novels I have actually liked (most were Kim Newman writing as 'Jack Yeovill'), so I'm perhaps a little biased.

[jakiwis]

So how's your reading Eyescrossed? ;)

 

I hope the posts here are helping :)

[eyescrossed]

Meh, most of them are.

I finished False Gods about 2 weeks ago, but I haven't been able to get to a GW or bookstore, so I'm stuck with reading "The Divine Wind".

At least there aren't any "old boy" references in HH books *shudder*

[rocketrollrebel]

I've been reading all of them in order since the fall and I've been impressed with them so far. I'm up to "Battle for the Abyss" which I've heard lukewarm reviews of but im hoping that it turns out like Decent of Angels which I went into with low expectations but in the end I was a fan of it although wish there was a sequel out now... Fulgrim has to rate as my favorite tho. The Emperors Children were pretty gnarly guys before they became traitor scum! haha I'm pretty excited about the Abbnet McNeil "Battle for Prospero" (or whatever its going to be titled)books. The Thousand Sons fall to Chaos is probably one of my favorites and probably tied the Alpha Legion. That is if they even fell... but there are other threads dealing with that! :P

 

But glad you've been enjoying the HH series. Its defiantly a great set of books. There are other BL series that are on par with it to that i'd recommend such as the Eisenhorn, Ciaphis Cain, and the Time of Legends series. aaaaaaaand those that arnt so much such as The Blood Angels books sadly. But agian this isnt the thread for that I suppose.

 

Cheers!