Ku'gath

[THATNIDKID]

I was wondering if Ku'gath is worth his massive bloated weight?

I've used him ones so far and he was a brute.

 

Also on a side note: Why am I not aloud to give my greater daemons of nurgle nurgling infestation? Its one of my favorite abilities and the stripped it from me! DARN YOU Emperor!!!!

[Captain Malachi]

Ku'gath, imo, is worth it only in mono-Nurgle, with Epidemius on the field. His large blast template really helps rack up the kills, and when the tally's done he's still a MC with 6 wounds and a lot of attitude ;) In multi-god armies there are just better choices though I'm afraid, a bloodthirster is better in CC and faster, while a LoC is better at shooting, and faster. One thing that really bugs me about Ku'gath though is that his ranged weapon can't even touch a landspeeder, no strength value and only 1D6 for armour penetration (well, highest one of two) means no way to hurt vehicles, even opentopped ones.

 

Nurgling infestation? Erm, I'd tell you why you can't have it if I could remember what it does :)

[Raptor1313]

I'm with Malachi on this.

 

Ku'gath is bloody expensive. He's named and all, but offers all of two things more than the basic GUO...his poison blast template, and an extra wound. The poinson blast template is big, but it'll wound half the time, and assume the enemy has cover, so you'll nail a max of 1/4 of the enemy units you fit under it.

 

I'd actually field him in two types of builds, if I were bent on fielding him.

 

1) Mono-Nurgle.

Reasons are fairly obvious. It's nurgle, and RANGED. Still, I have to think that a standard Great Unclean One is still a pretty useful buy as well, and leaves me with a lot of room left to play.

 

2) Themed Pavane Builds

It's an ordnance template. Bring the Masque, a few other sources of Pavane (...pretty much the DPs, and a Soul Grinder or two, and a Herald) and pavane people into conga lines, then annihilate them.

[eyescrossed]

Nurgling Infestation gives kill points to the enemy, that's why.

[DuskRaider]

I actually use Ku'Gath a lot. The thing is, for only 50 more points then the regular Great Unclean One, you get all the extras. I have had nothing but luck with him, and I field in in a Nurgle/ Khorne army as my only HQ. I don't know... I prefer him to Heralds.

[eyescrossed]

Not 50 points more - 140 points more. A standard GUO is 160 points, while Ku'gath is 300.

[Raptor1313]

Yeah...I'm with EyesCrossed.

 

Ku'Gath is almost TWICE the cost of a Great Unclean One. He's a bit more than Skarbrand*, and Skarbrand has the good grace to buff your whole army, same with Fateweaver.

 

Honestly, beyond his theme-use, Ku'Gath just ain't that great. There's a LOT you can get for his cost. Like, oh, two heralds on chariots, and change. Couple Soul Grinders, with a nasty template that usually wounds on better than a 4+...you get the idea.

 

Unless you're doing the theme, I'm of the mind that he's a huge points sink.

 

 

 

 

 

*Bring Fiends, or even Daemonettes. Go before the other guy. KILL him. Then what's he re-roll? Nothing. That's what.

[Captain Malachi]

Oh, I remember nurgling infestation, provided you're talking about the same thing Ku'gath has. The reason you can't it on princes is because it's used to make Ku'gath more special. As for the free killpoints, don't forget it's optional, so you can just not roll for it in KP missions.

[Vomikron Noxis]

I faced Ku'gath a few weeks ago with my Plague Marines, and he was a beast! With Epidemius on the field he really racks up the kills, and he's a nightmare to take down. I managed a cheeky draw in that game, daemons really do suffer against armour.

[DuskRaider]

I think what I was going for was the regular GUO with the options you could give him is 250 pts. I think... I can't remember. Now I feel like a tard, lol

[eyescrossed]

No, 235, and anyway, no-one's gonna give one all the options.

[Raptor1313]

I think the issue's not 'CAN Ku'Gath be nasty?'

 

Yes. If he gets into melee, he's a beast. Plus, he can kill 1/4 of what's under the template max...

 

@Vomikron

Honestly, how much did Epedemius help Ku'Gath himself?

The only buff that Ku'gath can really get is the 3+ FNP save.

 

Personally, I think he's a bit pricy for what he really brings to the table. It's a GUO with a poison template and additional wound. If he's firing that thing, he's not getting closer to the enemy to melee them, and

 

It's a GUO with an infantry-killing shooting attack.

What part of the daemon codex has a problem killing troops?..screamers of Tzeentch aren't so hot at killing infantry, but beyodn that, um...

 

I'd rather get shooting from another source; a Soul Grinder will wound most troops on a 2+ and can nail tanks with Phlegm. Soul Grinder's 160. Trades 140 points for a better gun, and AV13 instead of T6 with wounds, 4+, FNP. (Though on the FNP note, a lot of the monster-hunting guns ignore it. Plasma, melta, powerfists...)

[eyescrossed]

Why will it kill max 1/4 under the template? Max it'll kill everything under the template :)

[Raptor1313]

@ EyesCrossed

 

Sure, it CAN kill everything under a template. Theoretically, a single Nurgling can inflict 3 wounds...

 

So, math-hammer, then.

Let's assume the enemy's seen your big, bad poison template, and has cover and no armor save to speak of. (Orks, for example).

 

You fire the template at the Orks.

It wounds on a 4+. so, it wounds 1/2 the orks under the template.

 

They get cover saves. A 4+ in this case. So half the wounded orks make a cover save, on average.

1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4

 

So technically, I guess it can kill everything under the template...but I'd not bet on it.

 

...then again, Daemons are so blankety-blanking random, why not make it your own? ;)

 

Me, though? I'd rather run someone cheaper and more reliable, or at least pay that much for a more army-wide buff. (Fateweaver, Skarbrand...)

[Captain Malachi]

Actually Raptor, he does give an army wide buff, it's just a little more subtle. In a pure Nurgle build he is your only decent shooting, take soulgrinders and you aren't bumping up the tally, you're just taking victims away from your Nurgle units. Ku'gath on the other hand, kills one in every four models under a large blast template, and let's be honest he isn't going to get in to close combat any more than a regular GUO is, probably less.

 

While we're on the topic of army wide buffs, neither Skarbrand nor Kairos give one, Fateweavers is only within 6" and Skarbrands is within 24" but affects ememies as well.

[Raptor1313]

I'll grant that in a Nurgle build, he can work. You're not taking Soul Grinders in a pure nurgle build; you're taking Nurgle Damone Princes. 155 base on those; 200+ if you want wings. (Assuming a build of Mark of Nurgle, Iron Hide, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch base, which seems like a safe assumption to me. Maybe Unholy Might).

 

So basically, taking Ku'Gath is paying 300pts for a not-very-lethal large blast template that can harm infantry well.

 

Skarbrand's buff does help the enemy, but the solution is to bring high I units and kill the other guy before you go first. Considering we're pretty much a pure assault army (...we have, what, about five units in the codex with any shooting worth mentioning?) I think that's a big buff.

 

Fatewever, I'll concede the point to you. Using his 6" range is a bit tougher, especially with our deep-strike deployment. He does, though, have the speed to move him where you want him, so ideally you can spend a turn setting up his protection-cluster.

[Captain Malachi]

The thing is, in pure Nurgle, he is your only shooting. Princes can be made to shoot, but usually they aren't, so Ku'gath becomes the only thing in your army actually able to hury the enemy first turn. However, despite that, I wouldn't recommend him in anything under 2000, preferably 2500.

 

You're right on Skarbrand being awesome, I was merely pointing out that we have no true army buff units. :P

 

Nurgle princes in a mono-Nurgle build usually have wings though, so it is often over 200 each. They need wings though, with the whole army being so slow, you really need the mobility, plus it means you're getting the tally up that little bit quicker.

[Raptor1313]

Yeah, I suppose we don't have a true army-buff unit, more like guys that unlock certain builds. (...mostly Epedeimus and Skarbrand).

 

And if you disagree that Skarbrand is bottled awesome, he'll eat your family in a screaming rage. :P

 

When you put in the qualifier about 2000+ games, I'll agree with you on Ku'Gath. 2000 or below? Save your points for other things that are more reliably useful in a mon-nurgle build, like the 215ish point Daemon Princes.

[Captain Malachi]

Well, here's how I would build a mono-Nurgle list: Epidemius, one unit of ten plaguebearers for each 500 points in the army, two princes if playing 1250 or less or three if playing more, Ku'gath if points allow, rest of points on nurglings, or beasts once all troops choices are filled.

 

I'm sure other people would build it differently, but that basically gives you a rough idea of how good I think Ku'gath is.

[Raptor1313]

I'd think about mono-nurgle, but I think I'd rather run 5MC Mono-Nurgle.

[Son of Corax]

The problem with 5 MC mono-nurgle is that the GUO are so godly slow (get it, godly, cause they're nurgle?) and also your plague bearers end up doing nothing. Sure I guess camping in a forest and telling ghost stories around an objective is technically "doing something," but really, they're being wasted. People also haave some ill-concieved notion that plague bearers are un-killable. They aren't. Just because they have FNP doesn't mean they are gods. Their save equates to a 3+ (or 2.5+ in cover), and I think we all know how those can be failed. Besides, once you touch them with a powerfist, they wither and die. The power fist doesn't care about your FNP or T5, and the power armor doesn't care about your plague sword. This puts huge pressure on your DPs to win the day, and they may, but every time you lose one (not that hard) you are losing 25-30% of your effective army.

 

Epidemius, however, means that once your DPs start to fade the rest of your army is suddenly about as fantastic as physically possible. Plague bearers turn into T5 terminators in cover, and units like beasts and nurglings are ludicrous in combat. Besides, your only sacrificing 1 GUO to get it, so you still get the sweet DPs, but they aren't the only feature of your army.

[Raptor1313]

Plaguebearers are hard to SHOOT off an objective, but I'll grant you're correct, Son of Corax, when it comes to melee. It's not hard to shove them off.

 

Or you can just tank-shock them off. Not like they can do a blessed thing about an angry Rhino running 'em off an objective.

 

I disagree that Epedemius really buffs Plaguebeaers, though. Even if they're buffed to wound-on-2+-power weapons, it's still just one I3 WS3 attack.

 

You have to look at what Epedemius really does: beef up the CC attacks of Nurgle units.

 

Who doesn't he help?

Daemon Princes (already have noxious touch, power weapons. Don't have FnP)

 

Great Unclean Ones (...gets FNP buff, but alreayd has the other things, and most weapons people are going to willingly shoot at GUOs are going to get through the FNP anyway.)

 

Plaguebearers (...not enough attacks. Simple. They're crap at melee)

 

Epedemius then buffs...

Nurglings (volume of attacks.)

 

Beasts of Nurgle (Volume of attacks. Random, yes, but someone ALWAYS has to worry about a beast cranking out 6 attacks. Plaguebearers? Not so much.)

 

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sold on a mono-nurgle build of most any stripe. Slow, not many killy units, and often wants Epi to do much...

 

Vs. Marines, honestly, if you've dropped 20, you're most of the way home.

Vs. Hordes, you can rack up kills, but what do Orks care about power weapons? Nids? (Albeit, watching Nurglings drag down a Carnifex is priceless...)

Vs. Heavy Mechanization? ...cry. Just cry. If he drops your DPs, you lose.

 

Epidemius offers buffs, to be sure, but I'd debate just how useful they prove to be. It's certainly a durable theme-build, and I don't deny it can be nasty to face, but I'm not sure the Tally actually solves a lot of the Daemon Codex problems. (IE: facing Dreadnoughts and high armor) and it's good at what our Codex can do without a lot of help: kill infantry. (Though it does help with MCs, we've got ways to handle that...)

[==Me==]

I'm not a huge fan of Ku'Gath, even in an Epi list. His pie plate only wounds on a 4+ and most enemies should have cover so as stated above it's only about 25% of your hits killing.

 

I'd rather have a GUO and put breath on all ==My== Princes. Breath on a winged Nurgle DP is wrong, so wrong. Or, just get Beasts and Nurglings to do the killing once the tally gets up.

 

A novel unit, but ultimately just not worth his hefty price tag. Same deal in Fantasy too :lol: