Sisters of Battle Terminator Rules

[Melissia]

Does no one think this is a bit silly?

 

TDA is a technology which is used near-exclusively by the Adeptus Astartes.

And the Inquisition. Honestly it seems no sillier than deathwing.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And the Inquisition. Honestly it seems no sillier than deathwing.

 

Already mentioned them ;).

 

An Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord can call upon pretty much any resource or organisation in the Imperium, so having access to rare technologies like digital weapons or TDA is entirely possible (and represented in the rules). I don't have a problem with that.

 

What I don't see happening is the SoB having access to TDA. It just doesn't seem plausible. However, if people wanna do it I suggest 'counting-as' GKT's.

[madtroll]

Eviscerators are:

 

Double strength, power weapon, strikes last, 2d6 penetration, two-handed.

 

Power Fists are:

 

Double strength, power weapon, strikes last, one-handed.

 

thats awesome but what does a chain fist do?

[madtroll]

And the Inquisition. Honestly it seems no sillier than deathwing.

 

Already mentioned them :lol:.

 

An Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord can call upon pretty much any resource or organisation in the Imperium, so having access to rare technologies like digital weapons or TDA is entirely possible (and represented in the rules). I don't have a problem with that.

 

What I don't see happening is the SoB having access to TDA. It just doesn't seem plausible. However, if people wanna do it I suggest 'counting-as' GKT's.

 

I personally could give a flip less about the rules for them.

 

My buddy is scratch building a thunderhawk gunship for me ( if anyone wants to check out pics go HERE ). It looks sweet so far.

 

It has been over a year coming now and I have had plenty of time to think up what I want to put in it. Seraphim dropping out... yessir. I thought about just filling it up with 30 seraphim but I would need 20 more of them and at $40 per 5 models...

 

Suddenly I imagined sisters of battle in super assault mode charging out of its front ramp.

 

Since I would only be using my thunderhawk in apoc I didnt need to worry about rules, just use "counts as". I made a post here asking other inquisition players which ruleset better represents the sister frame of mind.

 

I'm personaly sold on using chaos termies. I want to model these girls holding eviscerators so chainfists have to be an option. using chaos rules also allows me to load the squad up with bolters, meltas, and flamers. The Holy Trinity.

 

It was Mosk that decided we should all work on actual rules that could possibly fit into the codex. And since he brought it up I am actually pretty excited about it. Only my little inner circle of 40k buddies would ever let me use the rules but it's still fun to do.

 

We'll see how it goes.

 

fluff wise... I actually have an ongoing story with my army. My LGS runs a campaign every year and I use that to progress the story further. Those that know the story and where I am headed actually wouldn't be surprised at all to see my Order running around with terminator armor.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

thats awesome but what does a chain fist do?

 

Same as powerfist, only against vehicles you get 2D6 armour penetration. Kinda a one-handed eviscerator, if you will.

 

I personally could give a flip less about the rules for them.

 

Odd...it seems this thread is about that. Maybe you've posted in the wrong place? :P

 

My buddy is scratch building a thunderhawk gunship for me ( if anyone wants to check out pics go HERE ). It looks sweet so far.

 

It has been over a year coming now and I have had plenty of time to think up what I want to put in it. Seraphim dropping out... yessir. I thought about just filling it up with 30 seraphim but I would need 20 more of them and at $40 per 5 models...

 

Suddenly I imagined sisters of battle in super assault mode charging out of its front ramp.

 

Since I would only be using my thunderhawk in apoc I didnt need to worry about rules, just use "counts as". I made a post here asking other inquisition players which ruleset better represents the sister frame of mind.

 

All interesting, but it kinda belongs in another thread. The Bell of Lost Souls has an 'Ordo Hereticus' strike-force PDF document...drop pods and what-not. Might wanna check that out. But yeah, we'll leave discussion about you're para-trooper style strikeforce for another thread.

 

I'm personaly sold on using chaos termies. I want to model these girls holding eviscerators so chainfists have to be an option. using chaos rules also allows me to load the squad up with bolters, meltas, and flamers. The Holy Trinity.

 

Yeah, you could do that. They get a dirt-cheap squad heavy flamer as well...and yeah the combi-flamers/meltas certainly match. Equipping them all with chainfists is a tad expensive, but meh.

 

It was Mosk that decided we should all work on actual rules that could possibly fit into the codex. And since he brought it up I am actually pretty excited about it. Only my little inner circle of 40k buddies would ever let me use the rules but it's still fun to do.

 

We'll see how it goes.

 

Fun maybe, but I can't help but feel disquiet about it. The SoB have zero justification for Terminator armour. I really think you'd be better going with the 'artificer armour+refractor field' route, and then getting Deepstrike from a drop pod (ala the BoLS Hereticus Strikeforce). My impression is that people are trying to shoe-horn a unit into an army that really doesn't need or should have it.

 

fluff wise... I actually have an ongoing story with my army. My LGS runs a campaign every year and I use that to progress the story further. Those that know the story and where I am headed actually wouldn't be surprised at all to see my Order running around with terminator armor.

 

I'm intrigued. How are they ending up in TDA? Thievery seems a bit beyond a religious warrior ;) so I'm assuming someone else is supplying them with it.

 

 

.....Also, I've thought of a practical problem with TDA. To my knowledge they don't make any version with 'cups' to accommodate the female form :) so it might end up being a tad uncomfortable, seeing as it's originally designed for larger versions of men (hence no leeway for the chest area). Not to mention the issue of height, muscle mass for motivating the artificial muscles in the suit itself, black carapace interface for greater dexterity....power armour is ok, cos it's more flexible, but TDA turns a Marine or an Inquisitor into a min-Dreadnought, so it needs to be solid.

[Mosk]

I was also concerned with black carapace I qas thinking make up a name for the armor that counts as termi armor

[madtroll]

thats awesome but what does a chain fist do?

 

Same as powerfist, only against vehicles you get 2D6 armour penetration. Kinda a one-handed eviscerator, if you will.

 

thanks, I was being sarcastic:) I have mentioned that an eviscerator is the same as a chain fist several times in this thread.

 

I personally could give a flip less about the rules for them.

 

Odd...it seems this thread is about that. Maybe you've posted in the wrong place? :)

 

now your being sarcastic?

 

My buddy is scratch building a thunderhawk gunship for me ( if anyone wants to check out pics go HERE ). It looks sweet so far.

 

It has been over a year coming now and I have had plenty of time to think up what I want to put in it. Seraphim dropping out... yessir. I thought about just filling it up with 30 seraphim but I would need 20 more of them and at $40 per 5 models...

 

Suddenly I imagined sisters of battle in super assault mode charging out of its front ramp.

 

Since I would only be using my thunderhawk in apoc I didnt need to worry about rules, just use "counts as". I made a post here asking other inquisition players which ruleset better represents the sister frame of mind.

 

All interesting, but it kinda belongs in another thread. The Bell of Lost Souls has an 'Ordo Hereticus' strike-force PDF document...drop pods and what-not. Might wanna check that out. But yeah, we'll leave discussion about you're para-trooper style strikeforce for another thread.

 

It belongs in this thread about as much as your attempt to convince me, and others, that we shouldn't be trying to come up with rules for this. I've seen the mini-dex and it's pretty nice. Mostly because they change some organizational things about the squads in it.

 

I'm personaly sold on using chaos termies. I want to model these girls holding eviscerators so chainfists have to be an option. using chaos rules also allows me to load the squad up with bolters, meltas, and flamers. The Holy Trinity.

 

Yeah, you could do that. They get a dirt-cheap squad heavy flamer as well...and yeah the combi-flamers/meltas certainly match. Equipping them all with chainfists is a tad expensive, but meh.

 

It was Mosk that decided we should all work on actual rules that could possibly fit into the codex. And since he brought it up I am actually pretty excited about it. Only my little inner circle of 40k buddies would ever let me use the rules but it's still fun to do.

 

We'll see how it goes.

 

Fun maybe, but I can't help but feel disquiet about it. The SoB have zero justification for Terminator armour. I really think you'd be better going with the 'artificer armour+refractor field' route, and then getting Deepstrike from a drop pod (ala the BoLS Hereticus Strikeforce). My impression is that people are trying to shoe-horn a unit into an army that really doesn't need or should have it.

 

fluff wise... I actually have an ongoing story with my army. My LGS runs a campaign every year and I use that to progress the story further. Those that know the story and where I am headed actually wouldn't be surprised at all to see my Order running around with terminator armor.

 

I'm intrigued. How are they ending up in TDA? Thievery seems a bit beyond a religious warrior :) so I'm assuming someone else is supplying them with it.

 

 

.....Also, I've thought of a practical problem with TDA. To my knowledge they don't make any version with 'cups' to accommodate the female form ^_^ so it might end up being a tad uncomfortable, seeing as it's originally designed for larger versions of men (hence no leeway for the chest area). Not to mention the issue of height, muscle mass for motivating the artificial muscles in the suit itself, black carapace interface for greater dexterity....power armour is ok, cos it's more flexible, but TDA turns a Marine or an Inquisitor into a min-Dreadnought, so it needs to be solid.

 

I really have no desire to try and explain my fluff to you because I already know what kind of player you are. "you can't do that" and "that would never happen" is all I would hear. I really don't care. A friend of mine is making me a thunderhawk gunship and you wanna tell me that I can't use it for sisters of battle? Start another thread then.

 

Usually when I meet players like you I dig a little deeper and I find out that they have never read any of the 40k fiction. But they want to tell me what would -never- happen. or that they have -zero- justification for having it.

 

Eisenhorn convinced an adeptus mechanicus guy to craft a brand new top of the line body for the soul trapped in a box pontius, a known chaos wannabe.

 

Can you honestly tell me that there is no way -ever- that sisters of battle would get tda? that there is no way -ever- that maybe a group of adeptus mechanicus guys could be convinced to make some sort of female equivelant for the right price?

 

IMO, there are a very very very small handful of things that would -never- happen in this fictional world we play in, everything else is game on.

 

you have already mentioned above, that my attempt to rationalize this belongs in another thread, this is a rules thread.

 

so...

 

start another thread.

 

If your not going to contribute to the rules and are concerned only with convincing everyone that there is -zero- chance of this happening then start another thread to do so.

 

 

as for artificer armor, that would be a modeling nightmare. I dont want to just run regular ole metal models and say that have artificer armor. Modding metal models out sucks.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I really have no desire to try and explain my fluff to you because I already know what kind of player you are. "you can't do that" and "that would never happen" is all I would hear. I really don't care. A friend of mine is making me a thunderhawk gunship and you wanna tell me that I can't use it for sisters of battle? Start another thread then.

 

Usually when I meet players like you I dig a little deeper and I find out that they have never read any of the 40k fiction. But they want to tell me what would -never- happen. or that they have -zero- justification for having it.

 

. . .

 

Can you honestly tell me that there is no way -ever- that sisters of battle would get tda? that there is no way -ever- that maybe a group of adeptus mechanicus guys could be convinced to make some sort of female equivelant for the right price?

 

IMO, there are a very very very small handful of things that would -never- happen in this fictional world we play in, everything else is game on.

 

Ignoring the personal insults there, I'm going to agree with Reclusiarch Darius. 'True' Terminator Armour cannot be worn by those without the Black Carapace (as they can't interface with their armour), and it requires specialist training for the Marines to use it effectively. Lesser copies can be made for Inquisitors and such, but they are inferior to 'true' Terminator armour. However, for the purposes of 40k, there is no difference, as it requires a more complex rules system like those of Inquisitor or Dark Heresy to pick up on the difference. And yes, I am a frequent reader of Black Library products, White Dwarf and own just about every current codex under the sun.

 

But, as you said, this is a rules thread. So I'll make my argument rules-based. This issue has cropped up a number of times over in the Inquisition Project. It's quite simple really - balance and army theme. The Sororitas were not designed as female Space Marines, they have a different theme and army balance, that's why they have less Strength and Toughness, they get Acts of Faith, and did not get Terminators.

 

Eisenhorn convinced an adeptus mechanicus guy to craft a brand new top of the line body for the soul trapped in a box pontius, a known chaos wannabe.

 

Yup, that's Radicalism. The ends justify the means.

 

as for artificer armor, that would be a modeling nightmare. I dont want to just run regular ole metal models and say that have artificer armor. Modding metal models out sucks.

 

Well seeing as all you need these days for artificer armour is just regular armour with plenty of bling attached . . . :D

[ArmouredWing]

Easy children, easy.

 

I'd have to say that to give sisters termie armour is just another step towards making them SM's 'lite' but if that floats your boat then knock yourself out.

 

The one thing thing that does occur to me however is that when you put a sister in terminator armour and use an AoF suddenly the game balance goes out of the window. Whole squads with a 2+ inv save? Whole squads with potential S8 attacks? Those 2 reasons alone make the prospect of PF TDA equipped sisters unattractive.

 

As for the fluff side or the argument? Well, apart from the lack of the black carapace there's the consideration that sisters are not THE elite force that the SM's are and that they are not used in the same fashion. TDA is not for giving an army a big assault capacity, it's there to insert a few marines into the middle of hell for a specific purpose. Deathwing is a slight exception to this general rule as the whole company can be used as a sledgehammer but again there is a significant difference between the chapter as a whole and an order of sisters.

 

But like I said if you can rationalise it then good for you, I can't see sisters getting TDA in any official capacity (because if they did then the next thing would be actual dreadnoughts available to them) but it'd definitely make an interesting modelling venture, especially given the difference in size between a sister and a marine.

 

And for the comment

Yup, that's Radicalism. The ends justify the means.

There lies heresy. Hold on a minute, let me get my flamer.......

[Reclusiarch Darius]

thanks, I was being sarcastic:) I have mentioned that an eviscerator is the same as a chain fist several times in this thread.

 

Oh ok. I didn't read the whole thread, I was more responding to the OP.

 

now your being sarcastic?

 

Well, it seemed strange that you'd say 'I don't care about the rules', and yet here we are trying to wrangle out a workable rules template for SoB Terminators. But yes, I was taking the mickey :)

 

It belongs in this thread about as much as your attempt to convince me, and others, that we shouldn't be trying to come up with rules for this.

 

Just offering my perspective. I find it odd no one else (until recently) has said 'wait, isn't this a bit :ermm: ', so I'd thought I'd chime in. Anyway, being charitable, I suggested people use the GKT rules. Very similiar loadout to potentially Terminator Sisters, and their special rules are broadly what you're aiming for.

 

A friend of mine is making me a thunderhawk gunship and you wanna tell me that I can't use it for sisters of battle? Start another thread then.

 

Wait, what? I didn't say that. In fact, I suggested you start another thread, because it was interesting but OT.

 

Can you honestly tell me that there is no way -ever- that sisters of battle would get tda? that there is no way -ever- that maybe a group of adeptus mechanicus guys could be convinced to make some sort of female equivelant for the right price?

 

No. It's a fictional universe and fan-fiction can be anything you want.

Just making the point it's highly unlikely and in terms of canon there's nothing to suggest it would happen. As I said before, the primary aim of this whole debate seems to be shoe-horning a unit that doesn't belong into the SoB army. Terminators are quite a specific armour type that only Astartes and Inquisitors use on a regular basis (and even then it's exceptionally rare and hard to manufacture).

 

IMO, there are a very very very small handful of things that would -never- happen in this fictional world we play in, everything else is game on.

 

Fair enough. I just think you're going to get weird looks from other players when you put down female Terminators. If they're just in ornate power armour and have a 5+ or 4+ invul (from a rosarius or something), it's heaps easier to model and justify to others.

 

you have already mentioned above, that my attempt to rationalize this belongs in another thread, this is a rules thread.

 

No, I suggested you move your Thunderhawk idea to another thread, because it's OT.

The 40k background is what ties the rules together and makes them work. It provides a (relatively) stable framework around which units and wargear can operate.

If your not going to contribute to the rules and are concerned only with convincing everyone that there is -zero- chance of this happening then start another thread to do so.

 

I already did make rules suggestions; use GKT's. I also agreed with your idea of using the rules for Chaos Terminators, because they also seem to roughly be what people are aiming for.

You're going to need to provide some background as to why you have female Terminators in your army. I'm pointing out that unless you do have an elaborate and convincing background to justify it (cos it would be confusing to many people, even those who are familiar with 40k lore), people are not going to take you seriously. They're going to see it as silly or broken.

 

Well seeing as all you need these days for artificer armour is just regular armour with plenty of bling attached . . . msn-wink.gif

 

Yeah, just paint it a dull gold or something. 'My shinier girls have 2+ armour, those Troop squads only have 3+ cos they're white/red'.

 

Grandmaster Tyrak and ArmouredWing said what I was trying to. There's a lot of fluff issues with TDA-equipped Sisters, and rules-wise you'll get into interesting situations.

 

An alternative might just be 'honour guard' style Celestians, to replace the 'meh' bodyguards of the current codex. Give em artificer armour, the normal special weapon options (flamer/heavy flamer/meltagun), combi-melta/flamer options and 1-2 eviscerators in the unit. For balance you might wanna remove the ability to do Faith from them, and just give everything a rosarius (for a 5+ or maybe 4+ invul).

[madtroll]

tbh I dont care what they are called. It isn't my intention to make them stack up to marines. or make them "lite" marines.

 

This all came from me wanting to model some bad-ass sisters in big armor blasting flame throwers and meltaguns and swinging eviscerators around. Then I wanted some rules to go with them so I could actually play with them.

 

Give them so new armor that has all new rules? fine. They don't have to have an invuln save, they don't have to be able to deep strike or be relentless. It just makes it easier when you use something that already exists as a base.

 

I am considering using standard marines as the base for this modeling challenge. bulk them out a little bit, give them female heads and an eviscerator. It doesn't have to be TDA, could be something new.

 

I agree that acts of faith could allow this squad to do some really evil things. Thats where balancing it by point cost comes in. Should they be 75 points a model like an obliterator?

 

I have snatched victory right out of my opponents hands by clever use of faith. I have beaten really tough lists using faith.

 

I have also failed the check at very crucial moments and rolled a single 1 saving throw for my canoness and have her die to an instant death attack. I have also had games where I was burning so much faith that I was out of faith points midway through the game and was actually hoping my vets would get killed so I could martyrdom some more.

 

The invulnerable save act is a small squad act. The bigger the squad, the less likely they are to pass it. So that means a 2+ invuln but more rolls have to be made per girl because there is fewer of them there.

 

The ap1 and +2 str acts are big squad acts. small squads have a very small chance of making the roll.

 

Rolling them all together and saying this is going to be a squad of 2+ invulnerable saves with str 8 and ap1 template weapons is just being wrong. They can do some really cool stuff, I agree. But, the player has to pick and choose what he wants to attempt to do, he gets a limited number of attempts to do it, and there is a chance it will fail and he will get nothing.

 

btw... we already have to deal with 10 man units that are str 8 tough 4 and have a 3+ invulnerable. They are 40 points a model and dont have to burn a faith point and pass a check at the start of every phase to get it, it's always on.

[madtroll]

Just offering my perspective. I find it odd no one else (until recently) has said 'wait, isn't this a bit ', so I'd thought I'd chime in. Anyway, being charitable, I suggested people use the GKT rules. Very similiar loadout to potentially Terminator Sisters, and their special rules are broadly what you're aiming for.

 

Well people have pointed it out. In other forums. I have been a 40k forum browser for awhile but very rarely make an actual post. I decided to bring the topic up here because this is my favorite 40k forum to read.

 

When I first had this idea I did an internet search to see if anyone else had done the modeling or come up with rules for it. I found lots of links to other forums where the thread was nothing but post after post of why this would never happen and that it was impossible or that if you just wanna make them marines then just play marines.

 

as far as I can tell no one has tried to actually make a model or come up with balanced rules for it, or something similiar. They just wanna shoot the idea down.

 

Maybe I perceived hostility on your part when there wasn't any actually there, it's possible.

 

What would be plausible to you?

 

Beefed out celestians in artificer armor with wrist mounted weapons ( like grey knights ) and eviscerators? sounds frickin cool to me.

 

But if you say they shouldn't be a faithful unit then I'm not buying it. If they aren't going to be actual sisters of battle then i will just use the "counts as" rule with chaos termies.

 

That's kind of the trick with balance.

 

Make it so that they aren't overpowered for the points spent to buy them but also make them actually worthwhile to field.

 

How many codices out there have out of date units in them that never get play time because they aren't worth the points spent to use them. Whats the point of making a new sister unit that automatically falls into this category?

 

*edit* just want to add one more thing. It has already been pointed out that inquisitors, male and female, could use this armor. They are "normal" humans without the special training and extra bulk that space marines have.

 

Fluff wise they are using an inferior version of the armor that just plays out to have the same stats in game. I still can't comprehend, after that has been pointed out, why people are still saying that it is impossible for sisters to operate this armor.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

tbh I dont care what they are called. It isn't my intention to make them stack up to marines. or make them "lite" marines.

 

This all came from me wanting to model some bad-ass sisters in big armor blasting flame throwers and meltaguns and swinging eviscerators around. Then I wanted some rules to go with them so I could actually play with them.

 

Give them so new armor that has all new rules? fine. They don't have to have an invuln save, they don't have to be able to deep strike or be relentless. It just makes it easier when you use something that already exists as a base.

 

I am considering using standard marines as the base for this modeling challenge. bulk them out a little bit, give them female heads and an eviscerator. It doesn't have to be TDA, could be something new.

 

So, you're kinda aiming for a cross between Repentia and Celestians, but in bigger armour? Hmmm....well, artificer armour is just a variation on standard power armour, and could potentially be crafted for a lesser being (ie unaugmented human). I see what you mean from a modelling perspective, but I think you'd find it really easy to just convert some regular SoB models with more bling and firepower.

 

I agree that acts of faith could allow this squad to do some really evil things. Thats where balancing it by point cost comes in. Should they be 75 points a model like an obliterator?

 

Nah, they're not as uber as Obliterators ;) . If you have them as up-gunned Celestians, I'd say 20pts per model is about right (before upgrades). When you tack on upgrades they may end up around the same cost as a vanilla Terminator, but meh, such is the price you pay for awesomeness.

The invulnerable save act is a small squad act. The bigger the squad, the less likely they are to pass it. So that means a 2+ invuln but more rolls have to be made per girl because there is fewer of them there.

 

Yeah, but if you're aiming for roughly TeQ's, they should really be small squads anyway (5-10). Hence, I suggest you give them a flat 5+ or maybe 4+ invul, and don't allow them access to 'Martyr'.

 

The ap1 and +2 str acts are big squad acts. small squads have a very small chance of making the roll.

 

Yeah, but if they're already packing multiple flamers and eviscerators, thats a fair price to pay.

 

Rolling them all together and saying this is going to be a squad of 2+ invulnerable saves with str 8 and ap1 template weapons is just being wrong. They can do some really cool stuff, I agree. But, the player has to pick and choose what he wants to attempt to do, he gets a limited number of attempts to do it, and there is a chance it will fail and he will get nothing.

 

The 2+ invul is what I'm worried about, the other stuff is fine. Hence, my suggestion you give them a basic invul and disallow 'Martyr' as an Act they can use.

 

btw... we already have to deal with 10 man units that are str 8 tough 4 and have a 3+ invulnerable. They are 40 points a model and dont have to burn a faith point and pass a check at the start of every phase to get it, it's always on.

 

They're broken though ;) . Lets not make the same mistakes GW did with storm shields.

Well people have pointed it out. In other forums. I have been a 40k forum browser for awhile but very rarely make an actual post. I decided to bring the topic up here because this is my favorite 40k forum to read.

 

When I first had this idea I did an internet search to see if anyone else had done the modeling or come up with rules for it. I found lots of links to other forums where the thread was nothing but post after post of why this would never happen and that it was impossible or that if you just wanna make them marines then just play marines.

 

as far as I can tell no one has tried to actually make a model or come up with balanced rules for it, or something similiar. They just wanna shoot the idea down.

 

Mainly because it doesn't make sense to many people. Better Celestians is understandable (in fact I'd welcome playing against a decent bodyguard for a Canoness, at the moment they're meh), but actual female Terminators is a bridge too far. It also threatens to open up that other can of worms that plagues power-armoured forums ;) .

 

Maybe I perceived hostility on your part when there wasn't any actually there, it's possible.

 

Nah, it's nothing personal, I'm just not comfortable with the idea of female Terminators. I'm not trying to attack you personally or anything.

 

What would be plausible to you?

 

Beefed out celestians in artificer armor with wrist mounted weapons ( like grey knights ) and eviscerators? sounds frickin cool to me.

 

But if you say they shouldn't be a faithful unit then I'm not buying it. If they aren't going to be actual sisters of battle then i will just use the "counts as" rule with chaos termies.

 

That's kind of the trick with balance.

 

Make it so that they aren't overpowered for the points spent to buy them but also make them actually worthwhile to field.

 

Beefier Celestians are definately something I'd support. As far as wrist-mounted guns go....in the background, the force of recoil from a storm bolter can apparently break a normal human beings arm. It requires the training, augmented muscles/bones and synergy through the black carapace for a Grey Knight (or other Marines) to fire a storm bolter singlehanded. A Celestian may have power armour, but she simply can't control the sheer recoil of the weapon.

If we consider what a storm bolter is, it's essentially a 40mm automatic micro-rocket launcher. It's heavy, unwieldly and requires proper bracing to fire accurately (hence it's commonplace on most Imperial tanks).

What would be nice is to give Celestians uber-Grit (bolter, bolt pistol, ccw). That way, you can choose to unload an avalanche of bolter rounds into the enemy, or snap off a few quick shots before charging in. No arm snappage either ;) .

 

Faith-wise, I would remove 'Martyr' but allow the other Faith acts. That way, they're not insanely hard to kill, and you require a bit more luck to get 'DG' or 'Hand' going.

 

*edit* just want to add one more thing. It has already been pointed out that inquisitors, male and female, could use this armor. They are "normal" humans without the special training and extra bulk that space marines have.

 

Fluff wise they are using an inferior version of the armor that just plays out to have the same stats in game. I still can't comprehend, after that has been pointed out, why people are still saying that it is impossible for sisters to operate this armor.

 

Yeah, but Inquisitors are rare, god-like individuals who can call upon virtually anything in the Imperium. Currently, the only Order that is known to have Terminator-armoured Inquistors is the Ordo Malleus. The Ordo Hereticus doesn't use it, and the Ordo Xenos probably doesn't either.

 

It's not so much that an unaugmented human can't get into a TDA suit (it has roughly human dimensions), but the point is that you need a black carapace to unlock the full potential of the armour. Without it, you're clumsy, slow and you feel like you're piloting a min-walker. With it, Astartes are able to fight as effectively as their power-armoured brothers (although they're not able to run enemies down as effectively).

There is also the issue of supply; the Astartes have suits dating back to the Heresy, the Grey Knights and senior Malleus Inquisitors have Aegis-augmented TDA (I suspect Malleus Inquisitors have to get cybernetic implants or similar to use the armour), but no one else has it. Partly because it's proscribed technology that the Mechanicus restricts, and partly because it's so rare.

 

Thus, Celestians probably wouldn't get access to TDA. More ornate power armour and rosarius, yes.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yeah, but Inquisitors are rare, god-like individuals who can call upon virtually anything in the Imperium. Currently, the only Order that is known to have Terminator-armoured Inquistors is the Ordo Malleus. The Ordo Hereticus doesn't use it, and the Ordo Xenos probably doesn't either.

 

It's not so much that an unaugmented human can't get into a TDA suit (it has roughly human dimensions), but the point is that you need a black carapace to unlock the full potential of the armour. Without it, you're clumsy, slow and you feel like you're piloting a min-walker. With it, Astartes are able to fight as effectively as their power-armoured brothers (although they're not able to run enemies down as effectively).

There is also the issue of supply; the Astartes have suits dating back to the Heresy, the Grey Knights and senior Malleus Inquisitors have Aegis-augmented TDA (I suspect Malleus Inquisitors have to get cybernetic implants or similar to use the armour), but no one else has it. Partly because it's proscribed technology that the Mechanicus restricts, and partly because it's so rare

 

Malleus Inquisitors do not gain +1 Attack for the Terminator Honours that comes with Terminator Armour. Marines do, because they can use it fully.

[ArmouredWing]

Madtrol, here's an idea for you that could remedy some of the feeling towards sisters in termie armour. Don't call it termie armour and come up with a more suitable name that would fit in with the SoB background. The squats had exo armour which was something akin to TDA so why not come up with something new and different for the sisters.

 

The other thing I'd have to say is that marines TDA is pretty oversized for a sister and there's got to be something out there a bit more suitable for purpose?

[Melissia]

ArmoredWing: There is already TDA for humans, Inquisitors can wear it. Wether or not it is available in numbers needed to equip a squad of elite Sisters, I wouldn't know.

[SCC]

We can stop the petty back and forth nipping now folks, play nice or go play somewhere else.

 

If Sisters using actual TDA armour is an issue (and for many fluff 'purists' it obviously is) then why not look to the original source of TDA then? The original TDA was developed from the Mk.III Astartes PA pattern which was derived from the armour used to shield workers in reactors. To quote from the Librarium article:

History: Iron Armour was designed for use in frontal assaults in close quarters where it excelled for a number of years until replaced with the more formidable Tactical Dreadnought Armour systems. Like Crusade armour some Mk.III suits still soldier on, mostly in a ceremonial role, but they are revered as a link to a time when the Emperor himself walked the galaxy.

Notes: Iron armour led to the development of modern Terminator armour which was designed to fill the shortcomings of the Mk.III suit, being equipped with even more protective systems, capable of being fitted with more potent weaponry and having much improved life-support systems.

So why not have a Sororitas equivalent of Iron Armour rather than TDA? Use the CSM Termies as your baseplate, remove the heavy weapons options as TDA was able to carry heavier weapons than Mk.III and let them ride in Rhino based vehicles because that's what the Sisters have and you'd have a fairly balanced unit. If you really want to go with the 'heavy PA but not TDA' theme maybe go with a 3+/5+ save, remove any deep strike ability (except Valkyrie rides if you've an =][= in the army), apply the usual Sisters special rules (like FPs) and chop off a point or three. That'd still give you a 'heavy' Sisters unit that doesn't draw the usual 'if you want Terminators play Marines' or 'Sisters can't have/wear/fit into/find the right colour TDA' arguments you're bound to draw.

 

For my 2c Sisters in TDA would be a no-no from a fluff point of view and from a gameplay point of view I can't say Termies with heavy weapons, deep strike etc. really fit into what I see as the Sister's ethos. Even heavily armoured Sisters would stretch my personal boundaries but I'd find it more interesting and plausible than simple 'counts as' Chaos Termies appearing in a Sisters army.

[Melissia]

SCC: Pardon me if this is a bit annoying (and possibly too predictable), but I might go so far as to say that many of the reasons why it seems to go against the Sisters' "ethos" is because GW hasn't updated the Sisters or really gone in depth in regards to their fluff at all.

 

To me, it seems perfectly plausible for it to fit in with the Sisters' style, but I suppose I interpret what IS there differently than most.

[ArmouredWing]

So why not have a Sororitas equivalent of Iron Armour rather than TDA? Use the CSM Termies as your baseplate, remove the heavy weapons options as TDA was able to carry heavier weapons than Mk.III and let them ride in Rhino based vehicles because that's what the Sisters have and you'd have a fairly balanced unit. If you really want to go with the 'heavy PA but not TDA' theme maybe go with a 3+/5+ save, remove any deep strike ability (except Valkyrie rides if you've an =][= in the army), apply the usual Sisters special rules (like FPs) and chop off a point or three. That'd still give you a 'heavy' Sisters unit that doesn't draw the usual 'if you want Terminators play Marines' or 'Sisters can't have/wear/fit into/find the right colour TDA' arguments you're bound to draw.

 

For my 2c Sisters in TDA would be a no-no from a fluff point of view and from a gameplay point of view I can't say Termies with heavy weapons, deep strike etc. really fit into what I see as the Sister's ethos. Even heavily armoured Sisters would stretch my personal boundaries but I'd find it more interesting and plausible than simple 'counts as' Chaos Termies appearing in a Sisters army.

Although I agree that 'termie' class armour wouldn't be issued to the sisterhood it's still a nice concept to play around with. I like the idea that a Canoness + celestian bodyguard may have access to some form of heavy PA (Nimbus pattern PA? Halo pattern? Radiance pattern?) but I'd err towards a 2+ save with no other benefits. This could give the unit some real survivability without making them overpowered and it would also give a load of potential for some serious conversion work (something that I might have a go at doing with this in mind).

 

Back to the current 40K universe though the more I think about it the less I can see Sisters having a wide access to this type of upgrade. The sisterhood beliefs are founded in the acts of the martyrs, those who have died for their beliefs in the knowledge that the emperor protects. Heavy armour almost stands in the face of this attitude (CoSA being an exception because of it's value as a revered relic rather than armour in itself) and could potentially send the message that the wearer did not have the strength of faith. Part of the reason that they wear Sabbat PA is not so much the protective nature that it bestows but more to do with the fact that it is in itself a very powerful and revered artifact in it's own right.

 

But as I said before, it'd make a great project for conversion and something that I'm going to have a think about.

[Vodunius]

The original TDA was developed from the Mk.III Astartes PA pattern which was derived from the armour used to shield workers in reactors. To quote from the Librarium article:

 

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc".. Its long been a matter of canon that TDA was based upon reactor worker exoskeletons and that TDA was developed to fill the role previously filled by MkIII armour. However I'm aware of no canon source that puts MkIII armour as being derived from said reactor suits (neither the Librarium article you linked too nor its primary source article say as such, in fact the latter puts it as simply MkII with extra metal plates bolted onto it) nor any that puts TDA as being directly developed from MkIII. In fact the only canonical direct link I'm aware of between regular power armour development and TDA is that the MkV/VII helmet was a prototype developed for Terminator Armour.

[Melissia]

The Sisters are built on the idea of holy warriors, not suicidal nutjobs looking to die (that's the Repentia, not the Sisters in general).

[madtroll]

well I've definatley learned alot from this thread.

 

As I have said before this whole idea came from what I thought would be a cool modeling challenge and just turned into a quest for rules I could use with what I modeled. Using "counts as" is the easiest way because you dont have to argue over balance.

 

I agree that slow and clunky TDA designed for close quarters space hulk fighting does not fit into my image of a sisters army even though, in game terms, everybody moves the same 6" no matter what they are wearing.

 

If we are not using "counts as", and instead making a whole new unit then using termies as a base does not work.

 

I have thought of pretty much nothing but this topic for the last couple days and had a pretty slow day at work today so I was able to really let my mind wander.

 

I came up with something I think could be really cool and fit into my mental picture of what the model would look like.

 

I'll start a new thread for it :D

[SCC]

The original TDA was developed from the Mk.III Astartes PA pattern which was derived from the armour used to shield workers in reactors. To quote from the Librarium article:

 

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc".. Its long been a matter of canon that TDA was based upon reactor worker exoskeletons and that TDA was developed to fill the role previously filled by MkIII armour. However I'm aware of no canon source that puts MkIII armour as being derived from said reactor suits (neither the Librarium article you linked too nor its primary source article say as such, in fact the latter puts it as simply MkII with extra metal plates bolted onto it) nor any that puts TDA as being directly developed from MkIII. In fact the only canonical direct link I'm aware of between regular power armour development and TDA is that the MkV/VII helmet was a prototype developed for Terminator Armour.

Indeed, you're right on all counts there Vodunius and I ought to know better as I wrote most of that article :D Mk.III most certainly isn't developed from reactor suits, and the TDA development is apocryphal but I could have sworn I'd read that somewhere canonical. I couldn't find it when writing that article (and thus left it out) so perhaps I imagined it or it's just part of the folk lore as you said.

 

Still, the basic premise, that of heavier PA armour that isn't TDA class/size/capable as an alternative for the Sisters to TDA, still stands which is what the post is really about.

[jeffersonian000]

Here is some canon for the discussion:

 

From the article “Terminator: Space Marine Tactical Dreadnought Armour in Warhammer 40,000” by Rick Priestley & Andy Warwick

 

“Also known as Tactical Dreadnought Armour, Terminator exo-armour is a development of sealed environmental suits used by spaceship crews, Space Pirates, and in many other lethal situations.

 

“Exo-armour is constructed from heavy gauge plasteel plating, forming an armoured shell that can withstand even the colossal impact of high-speed orbital micro-debris. It is the only readily available armour suitable for working inside the high-pressure casings of plasma reactor shields, or the extremely corrosive environments inside the holds of bulk chemical carriers. These same qualities, suitably enhanced by the Adeptus Mechanicus, make Terminator armour virtually invulnerable from most weapons

 

“Almost all Space Marine Chapters have suits of Terminator armour, and train a small number of their best Marines to use them. The suits are valuable and often very old. Many bear scars or medallions commemorating past actions, and are treated with the reverence due to ancient relics.”

 

 

So, to me, that means that Terminator armour is civilian tech, used by anyone that can afford/acquire them, and that new suits are just as available as ancient ones. In addition, the ones used by Marines have been weaponized and modified to interface with standard Marine armour interface connections, rather than being built from scratch just for them. And that’s about it. Anyone can use them, they are available on the civilian market, and they are so freakishly expensive that even Space Marine chapters can only afford to maintain but a few.

 

That being said, the Ecclesiarchy is rich beyond imagining, so cost and availability are no real issue to putting Sisters into TDA.

 

Also, from a purely rumor point of view, in the Warseer forum thread Tactica Witch Hunters (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151, around the 200+ page mark), one of the developers/play-testers for the original 2nd Ed Codex: Sisters of Battle posted that he worked on heavy armour Sisters honor guard armed with spears that would have been an analog to Marine TDA; however, that project was dropped before rules were worked out.

 

So, I would say there is a place for the discussion, and that there is enough fact in the fiction to fluff out a reasonable background as to why Sisters would have access to a heavier set of powered armour on rare occasions.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So, to me, that means that Terminator armour is civilian tech, used by anyone that can afford/acquire them, and that new suits are just as available as ancient ones. In addition, the ones used by Marines have been weaponized and modified to interface with standard Marine armour interface connections, rather than being built from scratch just for them. And that’s about it. Anyone can use them, they are available on the civilian market, and they are so freakishly expensive that even Space Marine chapters can only afford to maintain but a few.

 

No. Like all tech, the AdMech can only replicate, it can't fully understand the Armour. It has been further established in multiple Codex: SMs, and the Index Astartes: Terminators article that only a handful of suits are produced per year, and these are all allocated to the Space Marine Chapters.

Also, civilian tech doesn't really exist as we understand it - the AdMech has the monopoly on technology, and civilian tech is limited to what you can make in an unsanctioned underhive workshop.