Sisters of Battle Terminator Rules

[ArmouredWing]

The Sisters are built on the idea of holy warriors, not suicidal nutjobs looking to die (that's the Repentia, not the Sisters in general).

True, but a martyr is not traditionally a "suicidal nutjob", this perception has only been brought about in more recent times through the word being bandied around to promote a particular ethos and make certain questionable and in some cases despicable acts attractive to those too impressionable to think for themselves.

 

Generally and historically the acts of martyrs have reinforced the faith of others giving them the motivation to achieve 'great' things.

 

The transferal of this type of concept into the 40K universe is done through the sisters and the element that when a faithful unit/model is killed it gives a point of faith back to the army as a whole. So the act of martyrdom in a sisters army serves to give other units the opportunity to achieve an act of faith.

[Melissia]

Yes, but at the same time, it takes away the ability to USE Acts of Faith-- the loss of a faithful unit or character means one less unit or character that can use acts of faith (losing a Veteran Sister Superior on a Battle Sisters Squad means that squad cannot use AoFs, for example).

[ArmouredWing]

Yes, but at the same time, it takes away the ability to USE Acts of Faith-- the loss of a faithful unit or character means one less unit or character that can use acts of faith (losing a Veteran Sister Superior on a Battle Sisters Squad means that squad cannot use AoFs, for example).

Yes that's true but I think you'd find that it's more a consequnce of the current edition of the system, e.g. Wound allocation, than anything else. In 4th ed it was a rare thing that a vet would be killed before the rest of the squad was gone, unless of course you needed to 'kenny' her in order to give another unit a much needed faith point.

[Melissia]

It's a 3E codex :lol:

 

But my point still stands, I don't think (and I don't support the action either) that martyrdom is intended to make you intentionally waste models in fruitless ventures. Indeed, most of the best games I've ever played and read about have very little use of the rule, while pulling out a grand victory.

[ArmouredWing]

It's a 3E codex :P

 

But my point still stands, I don't think (and I don't support the action either) that martyrdom is intended to make you intentionally waste models in fruitless ventures. Indeed, most of the best games I've ever played and read about have very little use of the rule, while pulling out a grand victory.

I believe you're misunderstanding what I've said. I actually agree with you're evaluation that sisters don't, generally, throw themselves into a fight without consideration but the ability to use faith elevates sisters way above what would otherwise be considered weak marines. Faith is what makes sisters a formidable force and this faith is restored through the martyrdom of particularly special individuals or squads.

[Melissia]

And again, even if you use tabletop, the best games and players of the Sisters )IMO) don't use Martyrdom at all. It's just a crutch for those who cannot effectively use the acts of faith properly to me, and something which is to be avoided.

 

It's like if you gave Marine captains and sergeants the ability to detonate the power plants in their backpack, and advocating the use of Martyrdom is like advocating the use of these detonations. They'll cripple the squad and what's left of the squad is also without a sergeant-- except worse, because the sergeants also are the ones with the book of st. lucius, so the morale uf squads is tied to their sergeants anyway...

[jeffersonian000]

Sorry, I guess I used a term that is common for me. Civilian Tech is any form of technology that is mass produced for a civilian market, while Military Tech is any form of technology produced specifically for military application. Example: Armoured Fighting Vehicles are produced for military application and not for general civilian use. Another example: High profile all-terrain vehicles were originally Military Tech, yet have filtered down to general civilian use in the form of the modern SUV.

 

In the article I noted, Tactical Dreadnought Armour was and still is a system produced for civilian use, i.e. spaceship crews, which have a non-combat function of hazardous environment personal protective equipment. Since this technology exceeds in many ways the protective features of Marine powered armour, it has been “weaponized” by the Adeptus Mechanicus for use by Space Marines. “Weaponized” is the term for item being turned into a weapon, or being modified for combat application. In this case, weapons were added to the suit as well as direct neural interface hook-ups to utilize a Marine’s Black Carapace feature.

 

In our modern times, it is common to in war torn areas of the world for civilian vehicles to be “weaponized” with welded sheet metal armour and bolt-on rockets or machine guns. These are commonly referred to as “technicals”, the term originating in Somalia, ye the practice going back to at least WWI. In the case of TDA, it’s a form of “technical” exo-armour.

 

And to bring this to a point, the history of powered armour development in the 40k universe starts on Earth during the dark times of the techno-barbarian hordes wearing upper-body strength enhancing combat armour that became a cultural standard before the soon-to-be Emperor gathered the hordes under his wing and conquered the globe. We then have a 25-50 year period where the focus is on genetically engineering 20 super-soldiers to be his Primarchs, a 55-100 year period of breeding geneseed for implantation into loyal techno-barbarians to form the first Space Marines that also saw the first environmentally sealed combat powered armour, or the Mark II suit. We then see that during the rapid conquest/re-acquisition of Luna and Mars our trusty suits of powered armour are upgrade for specific uses (Mk III) and for easy of manufacture (Mk IV), which then leads to issues of field repair and construction from local materials (Mk V to present). Along the way, around the time the Mk III suit was in common use, someone decided that spacecraft maintenance suits which date back to the Dark Age of Technology where better at stand-up, close ranged fire fights than standard powered and added field-expedient weapon systems to the exo-suits to form the first Terminator Tactical Dreadnought Armour. At a guess, one could assume the decision occurred while fighting space pirates and free-booters, which had been using TDA since well before the Age of Strife as “technical” exo-armour.

 

Now, in the current era of the 40k universe, we see that the Mechanicus only provide a hand full of TDA suit a year to Marine chapters, which could be due to manufacturing issues or could very well be a way of preventing any given chapter from becoming too strong. Also, we can note that old suits are still available due to their robustness, so ancient suits are more numerous in any given chapter than newer suits. Another point to make about Marines is that their charter requires them to be as self-sufficient as possible, so only those chapters with close ties to a Forge World would have a ready access to new suits, while those chapters that do not have such resources will be unable to field TDA in any thing other than small numbers.

 

One more point of interest: the Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition.

 

They have their own pet chapter, which is located in the same solar system as the greatest of all Forge Worlds, Mars. With their inquisitorial mandate and a functioning legion of Space Marines at their beck and call, TDA is available and plentiful.

 

Guess who else is in the same solar system as Mars? The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy; which have both cash and the authority to acquire what they want. Within specific limits, of course. No men under arms being their biggest limit. Yet they can field over 10,000 Sisters of Battle in powered armour and are not required to be self-sufficient. If an ecclesiarch wants his handmaiden bodyguards in TDA, he has but to ask (and perhaps risk the Inquisition).

 

SJ

[Melissia]

Over 10,000 is putting it lightly, I estimate it at more around the lines of 500,000+ myself (~50,000 per major order as a conservative estimate, and a great number of smaller orders that are roughly 500-3000 each). Mostly out of logical necessity, because the Ecclesiarchy's interests are just that widespread that they NEED a large number of Sisters across the galaxy in order to protect important worlds and prosecute major wars without calling in too many favors.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Now, in the current era of the 40k universe, we see that the Mechanicus only provide a hand full of TDA suit a year to Marine chapters, which could be due to manufacturing issues or could very well be a way of preventing any given chapter from becoming too strong.

 

It's manufacturing issues. They don't understand the armour and they don't understand the specialist machinery required to make it. If something breaks they seem to pray forever and ever amen just to get it working again.

 

With their inquisitorial mandate and a functioning legion of Space Marines at their beck and call, TDA is available and plentiful.

 

Legion? Chapter.

 

Guess who else is in the same solar system as Mars? The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy; which have both cash and the authority to acquire what they want. Within specific limits, of course. No men under arms being their biggest limit. Yet they can field over 10,000 Sisters of Battle in powered armour and are not required to be self-sufficient. If an ecclesiarch wants his handmaiden bodyguards in TDA, he has but to ask (and perhaps risk the Inquisition).

 

It's not quite as simple as that. Yes, the Ecclesiarchy, like the Inquisition, can swipe a few suits every now and again. But if you take too many there will be a long line outside the Mechanicus forges asking why their suits of TDA haven't arrived yet. Either that or they will tell you to go away - if you ask for a lot they can say you are interrupting Departmento Munitorum supply lines and you must therefore get their sanction. And if anyone does red tape it's the Administratum.

So yes, with enough authority the Inquisition could get the required amount of suits. But you'd be throwing away your good relations with a lot of SM Chapters and the AdMech.

 

someone decided that spacecraft maintenance suits which date back to the Dark Age of Technology where better at stand-up, close ranged fire fights than standard powered and added field-expedient weapon systems to the exo-suits to form the first Terminator Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

 

Now this I like. Void suits (sealed armour for operating in a vacumn) are available across the Imperial Navy, and no doubt in lesser quantities among the merchant starfarers too. Get the reactor-maintenance-standard model, and you have ready-made heavy armour. All you need is to be able to hold stuff (even SM Terminators still hold their Storm Bolters) in the gauntlets and you have a cruder, but more widely available form of heavy armour. Better yet, it is designed to be worn by normal unmodified humans and so there will be no impact on performace for the Sororitas to wear it.

[Eltnot]

If someone else has already mentioned this, then I apologize for repeating it (I've skimmed the thread but haven't gone through every last post in detail).

 

The Inquisition can get their hands on a small amount of termi armour. Outside of that, there are no known cases of other people wearing termi armour. So fluff wise, this idea is completely flawed (unless you sisters regularly kill loyalist marines for fun...).

 

Rules wise, you're pushing a boulder up a hill for even trying to do this because it's almost impossible to put a price on a unit that can have 2+ invulnerable saves on a whim. Most people cringe at just a Canoness doing this.

 

Given the above, as an opponent on the other side of the table, I would consider it my duty to shove the given "models" into uncomfortable places of your body.

 

If you're interested in making rules to play with your friends, then discuss it with them, because what we say has no bearing on whether they will allow it.

 

Now to discuss how to incorporate Bloodletters into my Tau army - it has about as much relevance in this subforum as the current topic...

[madtroll]

If someone else has already mentioned this, then I apologize for repeating it (I've skimmed the thread but haven't gone through every last post in detail).

 

The Inquisition can get their hands on a small amount of termi armour. Outside of that, there are no known cases of other people wearing termi armour. So fluff wise, this idea is completely flawed (unless you sisters regularly kill loyalist marines for fun...).

 

yeah you really should have read the thread. The origins of TDA as a piece of civilian gear and the current use of it aboard civilian ships has been brought up. Basically the opposition keeps ping ponging back and forth between "they wouldnt be able to operate it" and "they wouldn't be able to get it".

 

We've established that regular humans can operate the armor, they just dont get the extra attack given to marines using the black carapace interface.

 

We've also established that the armor is used in the civilian world for repairing reactor cores and is readily available to anyone with sufficient resources.

 

Fluff wise the idea is not flawed at all. It's just a matter of a lack of creativity.

 

Maybe my order did kill some loyalist marines.

 

How about this:

 

An Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor Lord declares a lesser known successor chapter as heretical. There could be a hundred reasons why they would do that and it has happened in the past. The sisters of battle and the imperial guard are called in to invade the chapters home world and they successfully defeat the chapter, killing 99% of them and capturing the rest for interrogation. The chapters entire stock of gene-seed is destroyed.

 

The Ecclesiarchal head dog of the home planet of the chapter wisely decided to side with the Inquisitor and not the Marines and it was Sisters of Battle under his charge that formed the hammer of the Inquisitorial force.

 

At the battles conclusion the Ecclesiarchal head dog claimed all spoils as his and confiscated the contents of the chapters armory. The Inquisitor owed him since his support was crucial in the success of his plan and he also knew he would be stuck in years of paper work if he wanted to challenge the claim and instead conceded the equipment to him.

 

Hows that? I just came up with that as I was writing this. I could probably come up with 10 more if you gave me time.

 

Rules wise, you're pushing a boulder up a hill for even trying to do this because it's almost impossible to put a price on a unit that can have 2+ invulnerable saves on a whim. Most people cringe at just a Canoness doing this.

 

The canoness only needs to pass a leadership check. A squad needs to roll equal to or over the number in the squad. A squad of 10 has virtually no chance of passing the check. The smaller the squad gets, the easier the check is to make but that also means fewer models and more saving throws per model.

 

I personally don't see it as a big deal, especially at toughness 3, but I recognize a pointless argument when I see one.

 

Given the above, as an opponent on the other side of the table, I would consider it my duty to shove the given "models" into uncomfortable places of your body.

 

If you're interested in making rules to play with your friends, then discuss it with them, because what we say has no bearing on whether they will allow it.

 

They would never be used unless it was someone cool with playing around with new rules. You obviously aren't, just like 95% of the players to this game. RAW RAW RAW!!!

 

Now to discuss how to incorporate Bloodletters into my Tau army - it has about as much relevance in this subforum as the current topic...

 

again with the no creativity.

 

A Tau strike force is fighting Space Marines over an ancient artifact site of Planet X. Unknown to both parties the ancient artifact they are fighting over is a crucial component to a Chaos Titan. Bloodletters appear on the battlefield (they always deep strike) and immediately perceive the space marines to be the more imminent threat and begin attacking them. The Tau waste no time in pressing into the disoriented marines, they can worry about what to do with the demons after all the marines are dead...

[flintlocklaser]

We've also established that the armor is used in the civilian world for repairing reactor cores and is readily available to anyone with sufficient resources.

 

We have? When did we do that?

[jeffersonian000]

It's manufacturing issues. They don't understand the armour and they don't understand the specialist machinery required to make it. If something breaks they seem to pray forever and ever amen just to get it working again.

 

I disagree. The Mechanicus know exactly how to make TDA, its an STC that has been in continuous use since the Dark Age of Technology. At the core of every suit is the Ceramite exo-skeleton, which is poured into a mould and heated to 300 degrees C, then allow to cool. The adamamantiun shell is produced in vast spinning forges orbiting Mars and other Forge Worlds that are several kilometers in diameter. These wheel shaped factories use plasma in magnetic fields to keep the adamantium in a liquid state, allowing centripical force to flow the alloy into moulding chambers along the outer rim. After the body is ready, electro-motive fiber bundles are installed to allow gross movement while smaller bundles of hydroplastics are mated to power actuators for the operation of weapon systems. Then follows a crystal matrix power supply, life support, visual/audio communications suite, sensor suite, and an inner lining of shock absorbent gel.

 

 

With their inquisitorial mandate and a functioning legion of Space Marines at their beck and call, TDA is available and plentiful.

 

Legion? Chapter.

 

A "functioning" legion. 3,000+ strong and definitely not codex. Want to know of another legion? Black Templers; they are 10,000+ strong and very much not codex. In fact, they are closer to a pre-Heresey legion than any non-chaos Space Marine army.

 

 

It's not quite as simple as that. Yes, the Ecclesiarchy, like the Inquisition, can swipe a few suits every now and again. But if you take too many there will be a long line outside the Mechanicus forges asking why their suits of TDA haven't arrived yet. Either that or they will tell you to go away - if you ask for a lot they can say you are interrupting Departmento Munitorum supply lines and you must therefore get their sanction. And if anyone does red tape it's the Administratum.

So yes, with enough authority the Inquisition could get the required amount of suits. But you'd be throwing away your good relations with a lot of SM Chapters and the AdMech.

 

That assumes the Ecclesiarchy would steal from the Mechanicus or disrrupt the supply line to the Astartes. They could just simply fill out the proper documents and order a few suits along with all the other bits and pieces that go into equiping the Adepta Sororitas. Which is what I see the Ordo Malleua doing for themselves when ordering suits for the Grey Knights.

 

And as to what others have posted about availability, its in the setting already that space pirates use TDA, and they are neither Malleos nor Astertes. They are in fact civilians using hard-suits from their own ships and from ships that they have looted. If I remember correctly, Ork Freebooters could field looted TDA back in the 1st Ed days, which later became known as Ork mega-armour when Ork mekboyz started to build their own version of TDA.

 

SJ

[Eltnot]

again with the no creativity.

You do realise that you're talking about an organisation that for thousands of years has used no other weapons then bolters, flamers and meltaguns.

Religous based organisations are by their nature resistant to any change, and the Ecchlesiarchy is no different. Heck, it took them decades to even pass the Repressor to be allowed from memory. Power armour is already pressurized, and so able to work in space, so the use of bulky suits wouldn't be needed.

 

Also, the Ecclessiarchy has no power to seize equipment from heretical space marines or anyone else for that matter, and even if they did, they would be against using tainted equipment.

 

Inquisitors don't owe people favours, they can requisition whomever they want with the exception of Space Marines.

 

The Ordo Hereticus is not the Ecclesiarchy, and the two organisations are not buddies. In fact the Ecclesiarchy hates the Ordo Hereticus because it is their job to makes sure that the Ecclesiarchy is not breaching an laws (like this) or attempting to seize power (like claiming the armoury from a space marine chapter).

 

The Tau example was:

A: Sarcasm

B: An example of an army that shouldn't have super strong close combat units... just like SoB.

[SCC]

In the article I noted, Tactical Dreadnought Armour was and still is a system produced for civilian use, i.e. spaceship crews, which have a non-combat function of hazardous environment personal protective equipment.

Not quite. 'Exo-armour' was and is used for those purposes. 'Terminator Exo-Armour' (aka Tactical Dreadnought Armour) was not. That same article clearly states and you quoted:

Also known as Tactical Dreadnought Armour, Terminator exo-armour is a development of sealed environmental suits used by spaceship crews, Space Pirates, and in many other lethal situations.

I've highlighted the key part of that sentence there. Exo-armour and Terminator Exo-armour are not the same.

 

Later in the article it states:

All Terminator suits contain their own independent power supply and enclosed life support systems. Marine Terminator suits are heavily armed and also carry teleport homers, bio-scanners, energy-scanners, auto-senses, suspensors and targeters for their weapons, and communicators.

This implies that Terminator suits contain these things whereas Exo Armour doesn't, or at least, doesn't necessarily contain those things. In fact this gives me the impression (and I admit I'm reading a fair whack into that sentence although it's worth noting the whole article is quite careful to distinguish between EA and TDA at all times) that EA suits are more like atmospheric diving suits than TDA. I'd see them as the 40K equivalent of these suits, they might even require power and life support lines/tethers to support the wearer whilst he's in a plasma core, they'd have limited sensor ability and whilst offering excellent protection would offer extremely limited mobility in order to limit cost, complexity and repair problems.

 

In short TDA is a development of EA, it takes the protective capabilities and marries them with a suite of other gear and so forth, it doesn't just 'weaponize' EA it 'militarizes' it. Think of it more like the first tanks, developed from tracked vehicles created for civilian purposes and turned into something much, much deadlier than it's original civilian counterparts. The analogy extends to use and availability as well, a tank couldn't be used by any old tracked vehicle driver, it took a well trained crew to operate it properly. Same with availability, it wasn't simply a case of slapping weapons on farmyard vehicles and sending them off to war, they had to create armour, storage for fuels and ammo, sensors (periscopes etc.), sponsons for weapons and so forth, just because tracked vehicles were available to farmers didn't mean that tanks were available to them too.

 

The origins of TDA as a piece of civilian gear and the current use of it aboard civilian ships has been brought up. Basically the opposition keeps ping ponging back and forth between "they wouldnt be able to operate it" and "they wouldn't be able to get it".

 

We've established that regular humans can operate the armor, they just dont get the extra attack given to marines using the black carapace interface.

 

We've also established that the armor is used in the civilian world for repairing reactor cores and is readily available to anyone with sufficient resources.

I don't believe you've established 'regular humans' can operate TDA at all. The only folks we know who can use it are Astartes and Inquisitors, neither of whom are 'regular humans' as far as I'm concerned. Even if an =][= is a 'baseline' human with no genetic mods or bionics etc. he isn't normal. He's exceptionally strong-willed and intelligent and has tremendous resources he can bring to bear in order he can procure, train with, use and maintain a suit of TDA for himself. That hardly proves 'regular humans' can use it. I don't doubt that some, indeed, many, Sisters could use Inquisitorial level TDA but lets not make it out as being as simple to use it as to use Exo-Armour (a task I'm sure is equally as demanding and skilled as working in a hazardous hi-tech industry today would be, like say, being an astronaut, it's not something Joe Public can do at the drop of a hat.)

 

As for the availability and maintenance issues, well yes, I'll agree EA is available and useable by the civilian world, TDA however, as I pointed out before, isn't EA. They have similarities but I can't imagine they're even roughly analagous on the field of combat otherwise why would the Emperor have bothered designing Power Armour for the Astartes? If it's that easy to make and use TDA, if it is essentially the same as the EA suits used by space pirates why not just equip all Marines with it and why don't we hear more about these 'TDA' equipped Space Pirates?

 

Could it be that both PA and TDA have tremendous advantages over EA? Integrated power, comms, sensors, mobility and more? Could TDA even have enhanced defensive capabilities, for example layers of adamantium and ceramite to make it more resistant to other forms of damage other than kinetic strikes like meteorites? Could it be that the two are in fact very, very different?

 

Again, I'm not saying that it's a 100% unreasonable idea for the Sisters to have some form of heavier than usual armour or a heavy assault unit, but to have it be the equal of TDA/Terminator Squads stretches my fluff credulity. As I said, I think that Sororitas armour more akin to the Mk.III Iron Suit would be perfectly suitable for Mosk's original idea, which was essentially 'heavy assault sisters', whilst staying closer to the existing Sisters fluff, although to my mind that still stretches the Sisters background and feel further than I like.

 

Which brings me back to this comment, apologies for not considering it earlier Melissia, I only had a short time last time I posted in this thread:

SCC: Pardon me if this is a bit annoying (and possibly too predictable), but I might go so far as to say that many of the reasons why it seems to go against the Sisters' "ethos" is because GW hasn't updated the Sisters or really gone in depth in regards to their fluff at all.

 

To me, it seems perfectly plausible for it to fit in with the Sisters' style, but I suppose I interpret what IS there differently than most.

Agreed, we see the Sisters differently but your comment that the idea of TDA eqipped Sisters is against the 'ethos' of the SoB is 'cos GW haven't updated the Sisters or gone into depth in their fluff is essentially a concession that you can see why TDA equivalent Sisters are in fact against the fluff in the eyes of many and why many see the idea as 'flawed'. I agree that updated Sisters fluff would be great but as things stand right now with the existing fluff I can't see how TDA equipped Sisters or an analagous unit really fit into the theme and feel of the army.

 

Sisters excel at close range shooting, they can outshoot MEQ armies at short range in many cases but are weaker in close combat than most MEQ armies in return. It's the theme of the army, short range firepower - bolter, melta, flamer etc., it has been since Codex: SoB so far as I can tell and it continues to be the case in the fluff released after that. Whilst different Orders may have different gear and methods in which this kind of unit might fit perfectly well until and unless GW do produce that new fluff then units of this sort distort that existing balance and 'ethos', this is the 'flaw' that many folks perceive with this idea.

 

Switching tack again, back to Jeffersonian:

The Mechanicus know exactly how to make TDA, its an STC that has been in continuous use since the Dark Age of Technology. At the core of every suit is the Ceramite exo-skeleton, which is poured into a mould and heated to 300 degrees C, then allow to cool. The adamamantiun shell is produced in vast spinning forges orbiting Mars and other Forge Worlds that are several kilometers in diameter. These wheel shaped factories use plasma in magnetic fields to keep the adamantium in a liquid state, allowing centripical force to flow the alloy into moulding chambers along the outer rim. After the body is ready, electro-motive fiber bundles are installed to allow gross movement while smaller bundles of hydroplastics are mated to power actuators for the operation of weapon systems. Then follows a crystal matrix power supply, life support, visual/audio communications suite, sensor suite, and an inner lining of shock absorbent gel.

Can I ask the source for that? Especially the section about TDA being STC produced.

 

Regardless as most other fluff on TDA say either the secret to it's manufacture is lost or known to very few I can't see that the Mechanicus know 'exactly how to make TDA'. It's clear that like much tech it's barely understood and just as clear is that fact that they can't make a lot of it even if they know exactly how to make it.

 

Now let's look at some more quotes on TDA and see how well they mesh with the idea that TDA is easy to make, useable by regular humans and that the Sisters should have no trouble getting their hands on it:

The secrets of the manufacture of Terminator suits are known only by a few, so the ones that remain are very valuable and old and are reserved for use by only the most highly trained brethren of the elite Space Marine Chapters.

Incredibly ancient, the secrets of their construction has long since been lost and each one is revered by the Space Marines and lovingly maintained by the Chapter's Techmarines.

The same quote also appears in C: BT so it seems to be a fairly solid premise that TDA is either a lost art or one know to very, very few indeed.

 

More on the rarity of TDA;

Terminator armour is rare. Most Chapters retain a few suits, but even the vaunted Deathwing can only boast a hundred suits. Most Chapters have far fewer.

 

Here's one that make me doubt that TDA suits have been made continuously since the Dark Age of Tech:

Terminator armour first became widely available shortly before the Horus Heresy. The Adeptus Mechanicus, gorged with freshly won knowledge gathered by the expanding Imperium, had attempted to create the ultimate Space Marine armour. What they created was in fact too heavy, too difficult to produce and too hard to maintain for the far flung Space Marine Legions to utilise fully.

It also casts doubt on the idea of a Terminator STC on Mars just stamping the things out easy as you like. I'd be more inclined to believe that each suit is 'hand crafted' by those few remaining Magi who know how to do so and again debunking the idea that EA and TDA are even roughly equivalent.

 

 

 

Oh, and to address the idea of stolen/confiscated TDA - given Marine's bolters are gene-coded so only Astartes can use them what makes you think they don't protect their armour in a similar fashion. Add in that Marine TDA is assuredly set up for Black Carapace users and it's unlikely the Sisters can just turn that to 'off' then I fail to see how they'd be able to use such suits even if they could capture them in such condition as to render them useable. I mean, how many First Company Veterans are just going to hand over the sacred and revered TDA they've been granted the great privilege to wear without one hell of a fight that's unlikely to leave the TDA in a particularly suitable state for anyone to strip out the Astartes security/BC interface etc.?

 

A very long post short, the idea of TDA equipped Sisters is flawed in the eyes of many, including, patently, myself. It doesn't fit the existing Sisters fluff and all TDA fluff since RT days makes it clear that TDA is rare, hard to make (if it can still be made) and unlikely in the extreme to be available to any non-Astartes organisation except the odd Malleus =][=. The idea of Iron Armour equivalent equipped Sisters is a different kettle of fish however.

 

That's not a lack of creativity or even a lack of flexibility on my part, that's the product of a desire to stay within the bounds of the fluff as it exists today. That's a personal choice for each player to make and it's neither right nor wrong nor indicative of anything else bar the player's right to see the 40K universe as they see fit. Everything I've said above is heavily influence by my perceptions of the 40K'verse and you're all more than welcome to disagree with it if you so choose.

 

That's the whole point of the B&C, we come here to politely, civilly discuss our perceptions of the 40K'verse and I trust everyone in this thread will stay civil as it continues.

[Melissia]

Sisters excel at close range shooting, they can outshoot MEQ armies at short range in many cases but are weaker in close combat than most MEQ armies in return. It's the theme of the army, short range firepower - bolter, melta, flamer etc., it has been since Codex: SoB so far as I can tell and it continues to be the case in the fluff released after that. Whilst different Orders may have different gear and methods in which this kind of unit might fit perfectly well until and unless GW do produce that new fluff then units of this sort distort that existing balance and 'ethos', this is the 'flaw' that many folks perceive with this idea.

The only reason that Sisters can outshoot most MEQ armies is a combination of unit cost and acts of faith, and costs arent' really allt hat much lower than MEQ armies anymore, especially Codex:SpaceMarines, compared to what you get for the price-- A C:SM tactical squad in a rhino will give you the pretty much same amount of models as a Sisters squad mounted in a rhino while costing about the same. And so their only advantage left is Divine Guidance. For which they give up one point in T, S, Ws, and I, botl pistols, frag/krak nades, etc compared to most MEQ armies (since most are C:SM nowadays).

 

If you really want the sisters to be more shooty than most MEQ units, then TDA is perfect IMO due to their relentless special rule-- they can move and shoot even the heaviest of weapons. The Sisters' shootyness is really poorly defined anyway IMO, if you look at their HQ units.... who definitely not shooty. Not because their stats aren't geared towards being shooty, but because their equipment is geared towards assaulting. Neither are their squad leaders any more shooty than MEQ armies. In fact, I should make the comment that C:CSM armies get equivalent or better shooty equipment in them, and better shooty heavy support and elites as well. Really, it's the same with C:SM armies too in the new dex. The only thing the Sisters have that is definitively shooty that no army doesn't also have is the Exorcist and the combi-stake crossbow.

[Spacefrisian]

What about using a suit like that from starship troopers 3: Marauder. It would count as Terminator armour but it wouldn't require the Black Carapace thing or such.

Marauder

Although its Torso should be redesigned for the idea.

 

As for additional fluff just state that it is in testing phase in order to see if they need such equipment.

[jeffersonian000]

I pull a lot of my information from Rogue Trader and the 40k Compendium (the red book). I also pull quite a bit from memory of books I've owned in the past yet no longer, such as Freebooters, Codex: Sisters of Battle, and about 15 years of White Dwarf. Another source is my past background as an engineer and the time I spent in the military. I also read quite a bit and enjoy conversing with others about gaming and the hobby in general.

 

As a brief background, I encountered 40k first when I was in my teens at a local game store in Albuquerque, New Mexico called Wargames West. That was in the late 80's, or 1st Ed era. I took up playing the game at that time, and stayed up to date with 2nd Ed when it came out just before I joined the military. I played quite a bit of "Floor-hammer”, a kind of precursor to Apocalypse, were everyone would bring out their Armorcast titans, gargants, and war machines for all-nighter battles. At that time I played Imperial Guard with tons of troops, a half-dozen tanks, and six Armorcast Warhounds with inferno cannons and multiple missile launchers. Those were the days!

 

After the military I worked a bit as an engineer in the semi-conductor industry, when the first Sisters of Battle figures were released, along with Legion of the Damned and Necron figures. I had money and still enjoyed playing, so I bought into those armies and played a few games. Then 3rd Ed came out. Codex: Witch Hunters messed up my Sister army build, my Legion army became invalid, and Codex: Necrons left me with unfieldable models. I was pissed and pretty much drop the game for other things in life. One of which was moving to Phoenix, Arizona and getting married.

 

I skipped 4th Ed, as I had no interest in yet another new rules set, another new army of the month, and what appeared to be a change from the old guard (gamers my age) to the new guard (gamers in their teens or younger). Then along comes 5th Ed. A lot of people I know were getting into it, or getting back into it in many cases, so I dusted what I had left of my old stuff and started reading up on the changing tactics from 4th to 5th. Which brings me here.

 

I know the fluff. I know the fluff that has been retcon'd into new fluff. I understand how things should work in the setting. I understand why players can be so obstinate when presented with something new/old or different.

 

Now, I have no intention of playing the "20 year vet" card, or the "back in my day ..." card. However, I do enjoy a good debate, and love seeing what others bring to the table in an open discussion. Also, it puts a smile on my face every time someone points out how in recent books, it says "no one knows ..." or "no one remembers ...", when I can pull a book down from my shelf and read "how to ..." and "this is why ..."

 

I'm just saying that it's a current setting thing that humanity in the year 41,976 AD is functionally illiterate, that science is heresy, and that religion is the only source of thought on the universe. As it's fictional, and not internally consist from edition to edition, all I can do is put forth my view of the 40k universe as seem from the beginning and apply it what people are discussing now in the current edition.

 

You asked for my source; there is my source.

 

SJ

[ArmouredWing]

The only reason that Sisters can outshoot most MEQ armies is a combination of unit cost and acts of faith, and costs arent' really allt hat much lower than MEQ armies anymore, especially Codex:SpaceMarines, compared to what you get for the price-- A C:SM tactical squad in a rhino will give you the pretty much same amount of models as a Sisters squad mounted in a rhino while costing about the same. And so their only advantage left is Divine Guidance. For which they give up one point in T, S, Ws, and I, botl pistols, frag/krak nades, etc.

I think you've pretty muched summed up the reason why I feel that footsloggers are the way forward for sisters at the moment. For me the biggest advantage that sisters do have now in the shooting game is the available weight of numbers when your oppoent gets into range and that's also part of the reason why sisters aren't best used to move headlong into rapid fire range. Those extra shots at 24" can be enough to weaken a unit enough to ensure that when they do eventually get close they're not going to pose a risk. When I put a roster together I ask myself whats better, a rhino or 4/5 extra sisters (4/5 extra wounds, double that figure in bolter dice) in a squad? More often than not the wounds and weight of fire win out over the speed.

 

Something that does need consideration though is the development of tactics and how they differ between a marine force and a sisters force.

For marines it's in their interest to get close as quickly as possible, Their WS, S & T do mean that they'll benefit more from forsaking the rapid fire (which prevents assault) and getting into CC. This works in 2 way for them, firstly it plays to their advantages that they have over a sister in CC. If they shoot then they also have to consider the fact that they will be shot in return, if they assault they lock the enemy unit in CC and prevent any further shooting against them.

As we all know sisters play a different game. We move into position then do our best to maximise our shooting by backing away and making it difficult to assault us. Rarely is it a preferred option for our squads to go into CC with a unit of tac marines because we know our best chance of eliminating them is through bolter fire. We also know that DG will give us the chance of auto kills and if your opponent knows his stuff they will baulk against the thought of having this used against them.

 

So on close examination it may appear that marines match sisters in the shooting game but the difference in play styles can result in a considerable difference in actual performance.

[madtroll]

I don't believe you've established 'regular humans' can operate TDA at all. The only folks we know who can use it are Astartes and Inquisitors, neither of whom are 'regular humans' as far as I'm concerned. Even if an =][= is a 'baseline' human with no genetic mods or bionics etc. he isn't normal. He's exceptionally strong-willed and intelligent and has tremendous resources he can bring to bear in order he can procure, train with, use and maintain a suit of TDA for himself. That hardly proves 'regular humans' can use it. I don't doubt that some, indeed, many, Sisters could use Inquisitorial level TDA but lets not make it out as being as simple to use it as to use Exo-Armour (a task I'm sure is equally as demanding and skilled as working in a hazardous hi-tech industry today would be, like say, being an astronaut, it's not something Joe Public can do at the drop of a hat.)

 

An astronaut is a good analogy. Astronauts are "regular" humans. Sure they are smarter, tougher, and stronger willed than your average human being but they are still "regular" humans. I couldn't jump in a space craft and blast off into space and then space walk a repair job, but it's not because I don't have the necessary genetic modifications, it's because I lack the lifetime of necessary training.

 

I didn't mean any joe schmoe (my name is joe btw :P ) could throw on and operate TDA. I was countering the argument that has been made, in this thread, that operating TDA requires interfacing with the black carapace suits and that requires having the bulk and genetic modifications of a space marine.

 

An inquisitor has none of those things and despite being stronger, smarter, faster, and more cunning than your average human, he is still just human.

 

If a 10,000 strong order got their hands on 20 pieces of TDA then I feel that they would be able to find and train 20 capable sisters to operate it.

[SCC]

You asked for my source; there is my source.

Ah, so there is no actual source then? ;) I understand where you're coming from there but really, I was just hoping there was some official fluff detailing how TDA (or even exo armour) is made. That'd be cool, more info on STCs and the Mechanicus in general would be really nice and my 'dropout period' (isn't it odd that almost every gamer who's been playing 40K for a long time has one of these? I mean, almost all the folks I used to play D&D and BattleTech with 20 years ago are still playing and have never missed a gaming session :P ) was between 2nd and 3rd ed for about 18 months and I still haven't tracked down all the WDs that I missed. I s'pose it's all part of the mystique of the Adepts of Mars, pity, I love sci-fi pseudo-science *sigh*

 

Now, I have no intention of playing the "20 year vet" card, or the "back in my day ..." card. However, I do enjoy a good debate, and love seeing what others bring to the table in an open discussion. Also, it puts a smile on my face every time someone points out how in recent books, it says "no one knows ..." or "no one remembers ...", when I can pull a book down from my shelf and read "how to ..." and "this is why ..."

I can pull those self-same books down from the shelf too and for that matter, I remember reading 'em 20 years ago as well, but I prefer to subscribe to the belief that the 40K'verse has changed, and for the better, since those days. Are there still inconsistencies from source to source, even within the same edition? Well, yes, lots of them even, but it puts a smile on my face to see how 40K has grown over the last 20 years. Don't get me wrong, I love the RT era fluff, the novel Space Marine is the best bit of 40K writing out there and Rick Priestley really was the High King of 40K but the background today is tighter, more coherent, more colourful, better fleshed out and cooler than it used to be, if'n you want my opinion that is ^_^

 

If a 10,000 strong order got their hands on 20 pieces of TDA then I feel that they would be able to find and train 20 capable sisters to operate it.

I was countering the argument that has been made, in this thread, that operating TDA requires interfacing with the black carapace suits and that requires having the bulk and genetic modifications of a space marine.

Absolutely, 20 sets of Inquisitor type TDA, I think they'd have no trouble finding suitable users, I already said so. I will reiterate though that Astartes TDA would require the Black Carapace to operate so you'd definitely need =][= pattern TDA.

 

I still think 'Iron Armour' for Sororitas is a better solution to the problem Mosk is facing though ;)

 

@Melissia: You're probably right about the reduction in the difference in short range firepower between Astartes and Sororitas with the introduction of C: SM 5th Ed, but the ethos of the Sisters isn't changed by that and I think that's my key point. TDA doesn't fit the ethos of the Sisters as it currently stands (or perhaps, stagnates given the lack of recent info) to my mind. I think some of the Celestian ideas and other things bandied about in 7eAL's project, and even the Sororitas 'Iron Armour' idea, are better solutions to the problems Sisters have with assault and the comparitive dimunition of the close range shootiness than TDA is all.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I disagree. The Mechanicus know exactly how to make TDA, its an STC that has been in continuous use since the Dark Age of Technology.

 

Knowing how to replicate it does not equal understanding it. If you give me two kit computers, one assembled and one unassembled, then I can work out how to build the unassembled one by examining how the assembled one works. However, I still will not have a clue why it works. All I will know is that if you put it together like that, it will work. It's the same deal with the Mechanicus.

[Melissia]

While the average techpriest would not know, the Mechanicus as a whole does-- that type of knowledge, of course, would be more limited to the higher-ranking members of the organization.

 

 

Even if an =][= is a 'baseline' human with no genetic mods or bionics etc. he isn't normal. He's exceptionally strong-willed and intelligent and has tremendous resources he can bring to bear in order he can procure, train with, use and maintain a suit of TDA for himself.

By that definition, the Sisters are far, far from "normal".

[jeffersonian000]

Ah, so there is no actual source then?

 

Rogue Trader? Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (the red book)? White Dwarf? I noted all three as sources in my last post, and even quote a specific GW article. Did you want the page numbers and the copyright date of the specific books?

 

You do know which book I'm referring to when I mention Rogue Trader? The 1st Ed rule book? And the Compendium is a compulation of White Dwarf articles, including Chapter Approved material, also 1st Ed?

 

How about this: please quote me your sources. I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just curious as to why you missed the first sentence of my last post.

 

SJ

[flintlocklaser]

Ah, so there is no actual source then?

 

Rogue Trader? Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (the red book)? White Dwarf? I noted all three as sources in my last post, and even quote a specific GW article. Did you want the page numbers and the copyright date of the specific books?

 

You do know which book I'm referring to when I mention Rogue Trader? The 1st Ed rule book? And the Compendium is a compulation of White Dwarf articles, including Chapter Approved material, also 1st Ed?

 

How about this: please quote me your sources. I'm not trying to be rude; I'm just curious as to why you missed the first sentence of my last post.

 

I think the point is that the first sentence isn't the one he's talking about; rather, the last sentence of your post implies - well, states outright, actually - that it's your point of view that Exo-Armour is virtually identical to TDA. SCC pointed out several quotes, from the same books you cited, and even from the same portion you yourself quoted, showing that the two were different even back in 'old fluff' days (independent onboard power supplies, etc), let alone in the current 40k climate. Is there an actual source that claims otherwise?