Rules Questions and Answers

[jubei124]

EDIT

Hi everyone, first off I would just like to thank everyone who is contributing to make this happen.

 

This Thread started off as a request to get some sort of stickied "Grey Area in WH40k" thread which has resulted in the stickied Rules Q&A thread. Since this project is now going foward I asked the Mods to change my topic title to reflect this. So if you were looking for my previous To The Mods thread sorry for the confusion.

 

I would like to add that the point of this thread is not to argue over any of the rule/questions you see posted here. If you have any comment on the wording or intentions of the rule/rules this thread contains please start a new topic for it to be discussed there. I would really like to keep this thread about the development of the stickied thread.

 

Thanks again everyone, below is my original post.

END EDIT

 

I know I read it in an eariler post (cant remember where or I would have posted there) about the suggestiion of adding some sort of stickyed thread regarding grey areas in 40k rules. I would really like to something like this happen. For instance it could be called Grey Areas In WH40K Rules, Things you may want to discuss with your opponent before you play. Or something similar to this.

 

Basicly like my title for this topic suggests it would contain a brief explaination of the rule/problem. I think it should also have a link to the actual thread in question that way if anyone has any questions or something else to add to the topic they can list it there instead of polluting the stickyed thread.

 

My Idea of what topics/rules in question contained in this thread would be Topics that usually end up with us deciding to talk it over with your opponent before you play. This way all the posts that have this type of answer would be in one spot without having to search the 90+ pages currently in this forum..

 

Another thing I was thinking that we could do with these rules/questions that come up in this thread, was to possibly submit them to GW on a monthly or quarterly basis or something like that. I am not expecting them to answer them all or any for that matter, but if they were submitted to them as something from the B&C community as a whole I think it might add a little more weight to the rule/question instead of on the one by one basis that GW usually recieves.

 

I don't know if this is something that will happen but I really think it could help many new players and vets that play 40K

 

If anybody else thinks this is a good idea or bad one please post a comment, also if you think of anything else you would like to see or that this thread should contain if it were to happen please comment.

[Steelmage99]

I think it is a great idea too. Sort of a checklist you can cut-and-paste and print out.

For Codex Space Marines we can start with this;

 

(Please, don't start discussing these. This was just to show that there are a lot of issues. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss any of the points)

(Please, don't start discussing these. This was just to show that there are a lot of issues. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss any of the points)

 

God of War and No Retreat!

 

If a unit uses God of War to pass its Morale check, does it take No Retreat! wounds? The Morale rules say that a unit that automatically passes its Morale check takes No Retreat! wounds, but the God of War rule does not appear to be automatic: the player makes a choice about whether the unit will retreat rather rolling dice to determine the outcome.

 

Gate of Infinity and Movement

 

Can a unit use the Librarian Psychic Power Gate of Infinity to exit a combat it is otherwise locked into? Similar rules such as Skyleap, 'Ere We Go, and Veil of Darkness all make provision for what happens if they are used to remove a unit from a combat it is locked into, and Gate of Infinity does not. In addition, the Deep Strike rules suggest that the unit would be moving, and hence moving out of combat which is prohibited by the locked state of the units.

 

The Power of the Machine Spirit and Smoke Launchers

 

Can a Land Raider that used its Smoke Launchers, prohibiting it from firing any weapons, use its Power of the Machine Spirit to allow it to fire one more weapon than it normally would? The answer seems to lie with whether the prohibition defined by the Smoke Launchers is part of what 'normally' defines how many weapons a vehicle can shoot.

 

Rites of Battle and Soulless

 

If a unit of Space Marines benefits from Captain Sicarius' Rites of Battle, and is affected by the Soulless rule of Necron Pariahs, then what Leadership value does the unit use to Morale checks, Pinning tests, and Leadership test excluding Psychic Tests? It seems that the question turns on whether the term 'counts as' and 'use' in the rules are equivalent or not. If they are not then the Soulless rule makes their Leadership count as 7, but the Rites of Battle allows the unit to use Sicarius' Leadership of 10, that the unit can uses Ld10 for those tests. Otherwise, if use is counting as, then their Leadership counts as 7 and hence they use 7 for those test.

 

Thunderfire Cannon

 

How many Kill Points does the Thunderfire Cannon/Techmarine unit give up? While the T'fire is not a retinue, the Techmarine is an IC, and it seems taht the intent behind the IC/retinue rule is for an IC to always give a separate KP from any unit he is joined or attached to.

 

Combat squads

 

Spell out exactly what counts as "deploying" for purposes of splitting into combat squads, ie can a squad in Reserves split when it comes into the game from Reserves? Unit can be split into Combat squad when deployed. Does this mean only the pre-game deployment or does it (as the drop pod rule seems to suggest) cover any time a unit enters the game?

 

Marneus Calgar Power Weapon/Gauntlets

 

Can Calgar choose to use the Gauntlets and gain +1 attack for using two weapons. Gauntlets count as two powerfists and would normally give a +1 attack for using two weapons. However, the Two different special weapons rule says that a model with two different special weapons must choose which to use and cam never gain the +1 attack. Which rule applies in this circumstance?

 

Null Zone and Oracle of Fate

 

What happens when a unit is affected by both a Null Zone and the Oracle of Fate. The Libarian Psychic Power requires that enemy units re-roll successful invulnerable saves, whereas Fateweaver's Oracle of Fate allows friendly units re-roll un-successful saves. Do the players roll the dice twice, or do these rules cancel each other out?

 

Drop pod doors, up or down?

 

Vulkan He'Stan and Allies

 

If a Space Marine army, that happens to have Allies (say Sisters of Battle, or Daemonhunters), is using Vulkan's Chapter Tactics, do the Allies count as having Twin-Linked Flamers and Meltas, as well as Master-Crafted Thunder Hammers?

 

Combat squads

 

if combat squads can happen during deep-strike, can a libranian gate of infinity combat squad a unit?

 

 

Shrike and his ability to give infiltrate to a unit

 

Shrike gives the unit which he joins the Infiltrate ability. Is a Space Marine player allowed to declare during deployment that Shrike is attaching to a unit and then deploy that unit as Infiltrators? Or is the benefit from gaining the Infiltrate ability in this case limited to being able to outflank from reserves?

 

 

Retinue's and Bodyguards:

 

Are Command Squads and Honour Guards considered separate units or retinues/bodyguards? Are Special characters considered upgrades and thereby untargetable? Do captains and Chapter Masters need to start the game with these units respectively?

 

 

Apothecary in Command Squad taking upgrades:

 

Can an Apothecary in a Command squad take upgrades? The fluff states the whole unit are 'veterans', but only 3 or 4 of the marines in the unit are actually 'Veterans'.

 

 

Space Marine Librarian using Psychic Powers:

 

If a Librarian is upgraded to an Epistolary or is Tigurius, can they use more than one power in the same phase? Rules state they can only use a single shooting attack and that they cannot use the same power more than once in a turn, however, can I use two different powers in an assault phase? For example; Quickening and Might of the Ancients.

 

 

Telion vs. Camo Cloaks:

 

When a Scout unit is upgraded to use Telion, do you need to pay for him to have a Camo Cloak since it states the cost is +3 per model in the unit? Also, Does Telion confer Stealth to his unit without the need to purchase Camo Cloaks?

 

 

Telion using Eye of Vengeance:

 

It states wounds caused by his attacks are allocated by his controlling player. 1) Who allocated wounds first the opponent or Telion's controlling player? 2) Can Telion's controller stack wounds or does it need to follow the wound allocation for units where only one wound per model wrapping around until you allocate all the wounds?

 

 

Smoke Launchers:

 

Can smoke launchers be fired if a vehicle moves to the extent that it cannot fire weapons? Define conditions to fire Smoke Launchers? Can a Dreadnought fire Smoke Launchers during a consolidation move?

 

 

Power of the Machine Spirit:

 

Does the Power of the Machine Spirit have a BS of 4?

Can the Power of the Machine Spirit fire Smoke Launchers?

 

 

Chapter Tactics (All Special Characters):

 

The wording is often unclear. *Must an army take the chapter tactic, or *may* they choose to? For example, for Shrike, *must* I replace Combat Tactics with Fleet or do I hace a choice? For Vulkan, does ability give ally armies his ability or do the troops need to have Combat Tactics?

 

 

Orbital Bombardment:

 

Does a Chapter Master need Line of Sight or can they be inside a vehicle with no Fire Points and still call down the strike? The rules state the Chapter Master uses this in the shooting phase and that they can not have moved.

 

 

Define 'Army':

 

There seems to be a lot of issues whether wargear and special abilities will work with allies.

 

 

Locator Beacons, Teleport Homers, Chaos Runes(?):

 

Can your opponents army use them? For Chaos, I believe it simply says 'terminators' may use it. RAW vs. RAI.

 

 

Fire Points measuring distance:

 

When a model inside a vehicle is fireing out a Fire Point, where do you measure the distance? From the Fire Point itself, or from the hull of the vehicle?

 

 

Land Raiders

 

is there a set place to put the sponsons ... must they be both be, front or back; can one be at the front, one at the back;can both on the same side?

 

 

(Please, don't start discussing these. This was just to show that there are a lot of issues. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss any of the points)

(Please, don't start discussing these. This was just to show that there are a lot of issues. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss any of the points)

[Isiah]

Some nice ideas there jubei124. A 'grey areas' thread indeed, it would save a lot of repitition for sure and if properly handled would be a great OR resource.

 

The monthly/quarterly submission idea has some merit too. What happened in the DA forum was that we had a list of queries posted in a stickied thread, which was evidently read by someone at GW and then resulted in an 'unofficial' series of answers from JJ. Ths happened twice, and some of those queries found their way into the official GW releases. So yes, this things aren't a complete waste of time even if sometimes you feel like you're just banging your head against a brick wall.

 

Cheers

I

[SeattleDV8]

Eldritch Storm scatter

Is it treated as a Blast weapon or is the blast template placed without scatter.

[jubei124]

Sort of a checklist you can cut-and-paste and print out.

 

That is what I was thinking at the time when I first posted this topic but after seeing your list Steelmage99 it made me think that if this thread were to happen it would really be nice to seperate them into army sections. That way the different rule/questions would be in their own army section.

 

I think it would help streamline this thread and users could just copy the different sections for the army in question print them out and use them for the different types of armies that persons gaming group consist of or what you'll be facing at your local store/club. For instance in the group I play with no one fields a Tau army so anything Tau related would kinda be pointless to me. I'm sure that other user would come across similar situations.

 

Some nice ideas there jubei124.

 

Thanks Isiah, this old dog still has a few new tricks left in him.

 

The monthly/quarterly submission idea has some merit too. What happened in the DA forum was that we had a list of queries posted in a stickied thread, which was evidently read by someone at GW and then resulted in an 'unofficial' series of answers from JJ. Ths happened twice, and some of those queries found their way into the official GW releases. So yes, this things aren't a complete waste of time even if sometimes you feel like you're just banging your head against a brick wall.

 

Yeah I remember that thread, It really helped out a friend of mine who plays DA. And I'll be honest it is where I got the idea from.

 

I guess the DA have done some good for the Imperium(this topic I mean), though I am still a little miffed about the whole Ophidium Gulf incident(BT player here). I guess I'll put out the white flag for now but once it comes out about what happened the WAR is on. ;)

 

And I'd like to thank everyone who is helping this thread become a reality.(maybe it is still in the warp)

 

Also like Steelmage99 mentioned in his post if you do see some rule/question in this thread that you would like to comment on please post a new topic for it. I would really like to keep this thread argument free.

[SeattleDV8]

Ahem.... What Ophidium Gulf incident? ......(looks away) They were fine the last time we saw them ......Really, cough.

[jubei124]

After a quick look through my BT codex here's a couple.

 

Land Raider Crusader

Do the Black Templar's LRC get the assault vehicle special rule

 

Holy Orb Of Antioch

Since codex trumps rulebook do you roll to hit as the wargear entry states or does it follow the rules for blast templates

[Praeger]

Ok guys - Im going to start a new stickied post.

 

Now, this post will NOT be able to be edited by anyone other then a MOD.

 

My greatest concern is this - if we sticky a post it will eventually become pages upon pages of bickering (iv seen this happen many times before when this was tried)

 

So what will happen will be this - I will start the new post.

 

Each army and rulebook will have its own post dedicated to it.

 

Each will be editable ONLY by a moderator.

 

A moderator will insert into that section of the post the question, a breif summary of why its a question/problem, a quick reason for and against, and the end answer.

 

This will normally be inserted by one of us mods AFTER a topic seams to have been well and truly argued and general consensus has arrived (IE - a specific thread on power fists vs skimmers come up, after 2 pages the majority of people have good reasons to say its answer A and although there might be one or two people still arguing answer B we will post in the question thread the question and the answer A)

 

I have to admit im not too sure how this will work out, and would like people to keep posting in THIS thread for any ideas and sugestions.

 

Also please note that you are NOT to argue with us MODS when we post an answer in this topic - no making posts saying "Praeger is a fool for saying its answer A" or anything similar - if you wish to discuss the answer, open a new thread as normal and post some good RULES reasons as to why what we have posted is wrong.

 

Oh, and one last thing - the answer posted will be a RULES answer. We might in certain cases post a note about how most people actually agree to play, but the main answer will be a rules answer:

 

eg - orbital bombardment vs void shields

 

Answer - within 12" by the rules says no shields

 

House Rule - most people although agreeing with the actual RAW rulling agree that they would not play like this and so it is sugested to discuss this before a match and agree that even though within 12" the shot itself is coming from km's away so it makes sense for the shields to work.

 

 

 

Hows that all sound?

 

Right now im just going to start this off as a draft - so any sugestions, changes, queries etc will be more then welcome!!

[jubei124]

I have to agree with everything in your post Praeger. Especially the part about ONLY mods being able to edit it as I think this would be crucial to making this thing work.

 

I am curious about your thoughts on adding a link to the topic in question. So that we can find it without having to do a search or look through the pages of this forum. That way we know why this was added to the thread and if someone wanted to post something about that topic.

 

I understand this could lead to some dead topics being raised but I really would prefer a necro post than a new topic on something that was already added to this "gray area" thread. Another idea would be to close posts that were added to this thread. That way we wouldn't have to worry about necro posts being brought up and if someone really had something to add to the thread in question they could just PM a mod.

 

no making posts saying "Praeger is a fool for saying its answer A" or anything similar

 

Thanks for the laugh. :rolleyes:

[chaplain_quint]

I think I did not see the Meltabomb vs monolith discussion. Or is this one allready sorted out?

[rat of vengence]

Good plan Praeger. That would be a good way of presenting the points without the repitition and fuss.

 

Should be useful, and if GW actually looks at it and answers a few of the stickier (pun intended) ones, all to the good.

 

RoV

[Steelmage99]

I would much rather think of such a list as an overview of "grey areas" as originally proposed.

Many of these issue have been discussed to death on several different forums, so although some people think they have it figured out, it can easily be defined as a "grey area".

 

I think the mission of this (sub)forum should be to provide a list of things to sort out with your opponent (that GW can be inspired by, if they fell like it), rather than attempt to comprehensively provide answers to all the issues. Such a piece of work is a massive undertaking and ,as such a compilation would be solidly in the realm of "houserules", one might just look at the INAT FAQ. No need to do the work twice. :D

One might not agree with all the conclusions presented in the INAT FAQ, but respect must be given for all the hard work that has gone into it.

[Isiah]

Excellent plan Praeger. Seems like a great vehicle to get some issues shifted and sifted as it were :P.

 

Steelmage99 I know what you are saying – perhaps we'll just get things rolling and see how it evolves. But I agree the INAT is already out there (good or bad). I think the idea here is to cover things not in the INAT – or maybe come up with different resolutions if those are seen as outright wrong. And hopefully get some answers from any passing GW bod :D, maybe.

 

Cheers

I

[Seahawk]

I like the plan. That's actually exactly what I did with my club's forum and so far everyone likes it.

 

A couple issues on the list above don't need to be there as they are either spelled out or FAQed, but that's just me :D.

 

Oh hey, while we're at it, can Praeger or others completely in the know with rules check out the list I've compiled to be sure it's all correct? I know some are simply rulings to keep the game flowing, but some second opinions would be nice. Go here to read. No conjecture or whatever please, I only want hard rules.

[jubei124]

To Praeger,Isiah,or Nighthawks is there any way to change the name this To The Mods thread to something like Rules Question and Answers, Stickied Thread Discussion or something else that could provide more comments and suggestions on how to make the stickied Rules Q&A thread work. If not possible would it be alright if I edit something at the Top of my OP to basically say something like that, since this is going foward and no longer a request.

 

Cheers

[Isiah]

Go ahead jubei124, we'll come up with something snappy based on your edited intro :tu:.

 

[edit]

OK I've renamed it for you :(.

[/edit]

 

Cheers

I

[jubei124]

Thanks Isiah, I added a little edit to the top of my original post also to try to clear up any confusion anyone might have if it's their first vist to the thread. If any Mod sees any problem with this edit please feel free to change it or ask me and I'll change it to something more appropriate.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Heres a fun little grey area

 

Specific beats general, codex trumps BRB, so the question is, does Telions Eye of Vengence trump the tyrant guards "Sheild Wall" ability. Same question to the Vindicares similar ability.

[Praeger]

Specific beats general, codex trumps BRB, so the question is, does Telions Eye of Vengence trump the tyrant guards "Sheild Wall" ability. Same question to the Vindicares similar ability.

 

Start a topic and ask away - seriously, please do as iv got no idea on this one!!!

 

Oh - since my net at home is VERRRYYYYY slow and I have no net at work (typing this quickly from my girl-friends PC) I have not yet added in anything other then the general outline in the stickied post.

 

Please dont take this as me ignoring this issue or anything - I just cant do it yet :)

[jubei124]

To Praeger, Isiah, and Nighthawks I was wondering if I created a list of the different grey areas like I originally proposed would you Mods sticky it here or not. I really think it would be a great tool for our members.

 

I was thinking of starting a post in the Amicus Aedes forum asking for help finding different Grey Area rules. I would then check to see if each grey area rule I recieved was clearly answered in the OR forum and if not then create a new post for it. If it was determined to be a grey area rule I would then just add it to a wordpad document where I would compile all these decided GA rules so it wouldn't clutter any of the forums up then. When I had each section compiled I would add it to my post in the Amicus Aedes for review or in the OR forum if you think it would be better. Once I had all the different codices and supliments then I would post it In the OR forum to get stickied. Does this sound OK to you guys. I know it will be a pretty big project, but like I said before I really think it would be a great tool for our members.

 

I am not sure If this type of post would normally be allowed in the Amicus Aedes froum since its a general marine discussion forum. So if you guys were to say yes would you please explain to the Mods there what it is I am doing so the post wouldn't get moved/closed once I got to the non power armored armys and the filthy xenos ones.

 

The reason I would like to post there is just the fact it gets the most traffic(I think) and I am pretty sure almost every member visits it like once a week at least if not once a day so I'd be able to get this project completed faster.

 

Anyways talk it over between yourselves and let me know what you decide.

 

Cheers!

[Isiah]

Nice offer so yes we'll chat it through :tu:. Sounds like a lot of work though....