Gate of infinity while falling back?

[Sharik]

The rules state that psykers can't use shooting powers while falling back, but states nothing about movement powers.

[SeattleDV8]

Hmm... Do you have a page # for the no psychic shooting while falling back?

There is no rectriction for shooting (besides the normal movement ones).

[gonzo]

I wouldnt think so since falling back isn't in the movement phase, but after combat. Please correct me if im wrong though I think this is correct.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I wouldnt think so since falling back isn't in the movement phase, but after combat. Please correct me if im wrong though I think this is correct.

Actualy you fall back untill you regroup, marines can just regroup real easy due to ATSKNF, so I actualy done see why you coldnt use gate while falling back, but I would think that you would have to gate toward you nearest table edge.

[Legatus]

Hm, Falling Back is a compulsory action, and running while falling back has to be towards the table edge as well. Teleporting would not only take you (I assume) further away from the table edge, it will also preven the unit from doing a fall back move. Now, what do you think GW's answer would be?

But if you want a written rule about it, take a look at the "Trapped!" rule. It explains that if a unit cannot perform a full fall back move because it's path is blocked, then it is destroyed. A teleporting unit does not have it's "path blocked", but the deep strike manouver prevents them from moving any further, so they cannot perform a fall back move at all, which they are required to do.

 

Basically, the cold hard rule about units not being able to fall back is this:

 

If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed.

 

A unit that teleports cannot perform a full fall back move at all.

[gonzo]

Thanks for the rule clarification Legatus. Also frosty has a point; why teleport to the nearest edge? Its almost a given that you will scatter right off the table.

[Oldenhaller]

I dunno legatus, just to play at advocate (as as you've put it i would play it)

 

In the "Fall Back" section it states that units normally fall back 2D6". While this is generally going to be refering to bikes etc etc etc moving 3D6 if the unit has allready been moved in the movement phase by deepstrike, this is the entirety of it's movement. As this is not the "normal" 2D6 it is then exempt from moving further.

 

My question would then be would deep striking anywhere else on the board other than within the 180 degrees of the unit's fron t arc constitute a "double back".

 

~O

[nighthawks]

Oldenhaller has valid point - using gate to fall back to a safe regrouping area while still obeying all of the rules regarding movement direction, etc... doesn't seem illegal by fallback! rules, if using the power is legal by psychic rules then it would appear to be kosher.

[Legatus]

And I see nothing that would permit any other kind of movement as a substitution for the defined "fall back move". Bikes could not decide to turbo boost 24" towards their table edge, they would have to make a 3D6 fall back move. A unit could not enter a vehicle and have it drive 12+" backwards instead of making their fall back move (Scouts in a Land Speeder Storm coud retreat much further that way). A unit has to perform the defined "fall back move" according to the rules given.

[Oldenhaller]

In order;

 

- GoI happens at the begining of the movement phase prior to compulsory movement. The unit returns to the using deepstrikestrike rules.

 

- During the compulsory movement phase the unit is required to flee 2D6" in lieu of their normal movement. As they have no normal movement due to deepstrike which prevents them from moving in the movement phase they do not move the 2D6" (or any other) flee move.

 

- The unit would only be destroyed if, as part of their fallback move they have to double back on themselves to complete that move. As the unit is not making a standard fallback move they cannot be destroyed in this way and thus the deepstrike can be anywhere on the board.

 

The examples you've givenb are of regular movement which happens in the movement phase. The GoI happens prior to compulsory movement and therefore cannot be stopped by making a fallback move instead. Unless in this instance we state that they can fallback instead of the deepstrike stating they cannot?

 

~O

[Legatus]

- The unit would only be destroyed if, as part of their fallback move they have to double back on themselves to complete that move. As the unit is not making a standard fallback move they cannot be destroyed in this way and thus the deepstrike can be anywhere on the board.

The way I read it, the unit is destroyed if it cannot perform a full fall back move. A unit that was just placed as deep strike cannot perform a fall back move at all. The unit is therefor destroyed.

[Oldenhaller]

I can see why - "If a unit cannot perform a fallback move in any direction without doubling back it is destroyed."

 

It comes down to if it's destroyed by not being able to complete the move "If a unit cannot perform a fallback move in any direction " or if it is a doubling back part of that move which causes it.

 

The unit cannot perform a fallback without doubling back as it can't performa fallback move. However as it's not making a fallback move there's no chance of it having to double back and thus it cannot be destroyed.

 

hmmm

 

~O

[Legatus]

If a retreating unit was surrounded by enemy models on all sides, with no single inch to move, would that unit be destroyed because it could not fall back, or would it not be destroyed, because it is not doing any doubling back?

 

If a unit just was placed via deep strike, can it perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back?

[Oldenhaller]

Two similar situations there - lets see if we can refine them any more.

 

1 - If a unit is falling back in lieu of its norrmal movement and cannot fall back further without doubling back due to running onto something like a cul-de-sac of impassible terrain then would they be destroyed. As per the fallback rules yes as they'd have to double back.

 

2 - If a unit was placed via deepstrike and the models moved into dangerous terrain, lost 25% and failed a morale check would they fall back or be destroyed? The unit falls back as the fall back occurs outside the normal movement phase - the morale test is taken at the end of the movement phase.

 

So...there is no need for another unit to be about to force the destruction of a unit (could represent their morale failing entirely and the unit disbanding to the winds). However, there are exceptions to a unit not being able to move due to deep strike, it is only in a nomal movement phase where a unit would stop having its normal movement and use a fallback move instead. As the fallback move is in lieu of moving normally (which from a drop pod would be not moving atall) I'd say the unit then continues it's fallback from wherever it is.

 

~O

[Legatus]

2 - If a unit was placed via deepstrike and the models moved into dangerous terrain, lost 25% and failed a morale check would they fall back or be destroyed? The unit falls back as the fall back occurs outside the normal movement phase - the morale test is taken at the end of the movement phase.

That situation is different, because units allways make a fall back move immediately after having failed a morale test. This fall back move is not replacing their normal movement, but is automatically performed after failing the test, no matter what phase it is or what it was doing right before that. In subsequent turns, the unit will continue to fall back during the movement phase instead of moving normally.

 

However, there are exceptions to a unit not being able to move due to deep strike, it is only in a nomal movement phase where a unit would stop having its normal movement and use a fallback move instead. As the fallback move is in lieu of moving normally (which from a drop pod would be not moving atall) I'd say the unit then continues it's fallback from wherever it is.

I contest that, because that is not how the rules tell you to work out such a situation. A retreating unit has to make a fall back move during it's movement phase instead of moving normally. If the unit used a deep strike manouver (voluntarily at that, so the player might try something iffy on purpose) then it is not allowed to move any further, which is not "moving normally", so it cannot make the fall back move instead.

[Oldenhaller]

A retreating unit has to make a fall back move during it's movement phase instead of moving normally.

 

A fallback move replaces the normal move in the movement phase - anything prior to that therefore has no bearing on it deepstrike or no.

 

If the unit used a deep strike manouver...then it is not allowed to move any further, which is not "moving normally", so it cannot make the fall back move instead.

 

The only thing which can be affected would be their 'normal move'. If they've deepstruck then their normal move will be not to (as they are shaken from the deepstrike), but this will then be replaced by a 2/3D6" run. Either that or if they don't have a normal move which therefore can't be replaced.

 

At no point are they forced into doubling back as part of their fallback move which is the requisit for being destroyed.

 

~O

[Ming]

As I recall it -

 

If you have a SM unit falling back including the librarian -

 

At the start of you next turn ("pre-"movement phase) if you are more than 6-inches from an enemy unit, you rally, and the turn for that unit returns to normal (except may count as moved even if not needing to move that turn). You can then gate. Poof and you teleport the unit away, like towards the enemy deployment zone or rear.

 

If you cannot rally, you immediately do your compulsory 2D6 fall back, which counts as the movement for that unit. Since gate occurs at the start of movement, you miss the opportunity to gate, because the unit already moved.

 

Cheesy goodness of gate - if you are in CC at the start of your turn, IIRR, you can gate the unit out of CC and go somewhere else at the start of the movement phase, but of course you cannot charge back into CC. (there may be threads on this) There are some interesting things about that to evaluate and groundtruth, like gating 12 inches away and rapid firing back into the attacker. Of course gate has its risks.

[Legatus]

A fallback move replaces the normal move in the movement phase - anything prior to that therefore has no bearing on it deepstrike or no.

You cannot "replace" anyting that is not existant or available in the first place. Just like a Chaplain could not be equipped with Crozius, Bolt Pistol and Powerfist by chosing the default Boltbistol and then replacing the Boltgun he did not chose with a Powefist.

 

At no point are they forced into doubling back as part of their fallback move which is the requisit for being destroyed.

No, they are destroyed if they cannot perform a full fall back move without doubling back. If the unit can not make a fall back move at all, it could also not make a fall back move without faling back.