Fire Support Elite Choice

[minigun762]

I'm going back and forth on what to fit into my army at higher point games. I want a dedicated fire support team but my Heavy choices are all taken up. I'm going back and forth about if Terminators would be better deepstriking in or if Chosen and infiltration is the way to go. Both squads would be about the same number of points, though the Terminators may get split into 2 smaller ones.

 

2 squads of 4 Terminators, 3 Combi-Weapons, Heavy Flamer = 280 points

Terminators = better saves, better HtH weapons, one shot weapons, deep striking

 

10 Chosen, 5 Plasmaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory = 265

Chosen = multi-shot weapons, infiltration

 

The Terminators are going to have to be played more aggressively, deep striking in close and hoping to hit them hard on that first turn while the Chosen will be placed in mid-field normally and snipe things from cover.

 

So thoughts/feelings/concerns/ideas?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I always run a 5 man 5 combi plas IoCG powerfist terminator squad. Based off that, i highly recommend the terminators. 4 man works, but i find 5 man will drop some serious pain when it lands and then live to kill some stuff in CC.

[Moress]

Howdy Minigun762,

 

I actually came across these very same questions you did (Funny how we always run across similar things lol). Me, personally I would go with the termies. Personally I think unless you intend to go tank hunting with chosen, termies do a much better job of killing infantry, they also are much durable, and they soak up TONS of enemy fire.

 

One of the other reasons I like to run termies, especially in higher point games is because I like to run a unit of Berzerkers in a Land Raider. With a entry of Terminators I can include it as a dedicated transport, thus freeing up a HS slot for something else.

[minigun762]

Its funny that I've gotten two votes for Terminators, because I find myself leaning more towards the Chosen. Simply because they seem like a better midfield camper, sniping guys out at 24" as the rest of my team moves up in their Rhinos.

The Terminators seem like they should be used more aggressively, taking the fight to the enemy which is a different role than fire support.

 

Of course its hard not to like a Terminator with a Combi-Weapon when he's only 2 points more than a Chosen and Plasmagun...

[soshuro_tenchi]

I think as a fire support team, the chosen could perform better than termis. Termis are better as close range and benefit from their armor to survive ennemy fire, they are also a better close combat unit and can threaten the ennmy much more than shooting chosens. If you plan to keep a squad a bit back and lay down suppressive fire while your other units take position, chosens might be your choice, if you prefer to get a squad that can support other elements of your army with a more aggressive stance, termis might be better at it.

 

For myself i prefer termis over chosens, for their resilience and all-around utility, and of course some very nice models that stand out of other power armored minis. And as you mentionned, the differential in cost between a termi with a combi-weapon and a chosen with plasmagun isn't that much.

 

Deployment could be your decisive factor. Infiltration let you be where you want to be, but reserve and deep strike allows you to choose your front and add additionnal threat and suport where you need it to be (with icon of chaos, you won't even scatter so it's even more precise).

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

I use terminators for fire support and I shamelessly abuse the ability to take a non-slot land raider in 2000+ point games.

 

Unless I have gobs of points left lying around, though, I use 3 stock with heavy flamer, if I have a few points left over, I might upgrade to combi-plasma.

 

These 3 terminators tend to drop behind juicy squads that I have trouble getting to like dark reapers or lootas. With the heavy flamer, even MEq's have to worry, and once they assault that devastator/loota/whatever squad, I can run their Raider (full of 'zerks, of course) up the middle to disgorge hot death in a variety of exciting flavors.

[JamesI]

I use 2 3 man teams of terminators, with combi-plasma and a heavy flamer. They work great cleaning up messes the rest of my force gets into.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It is true that Chosen make better "mid field" support than terminators. However, they still don't do a very good job of it. While their actual killing power is just fine, their power vs points cost ratio is not very efficient. Chosen are better at mid fielding than terminators, but they still arn't all that good for it, especially when you consider choices that other armies have like sternguard. Noise marines are also better mid fielders vs infantry and hordes. So, i still recommend the terminators. Forget mid fielders and take advantage of the huge amount of close range, point efficient firepower we can take.

[Roultox]

If your willing to dish out the points...

 

Go with 3+ terminators with a reaper, and a transport Land Raider utilising a havoc launcher. 350 total for a Reaper, 2 TLLC, 1 TLHB, and a Havoc Launcher. (Some people pay 150+140 for a 10 man lascannon havoc unit)

 

If not, and you want cheaper - non vehicular support, I would go 10 man chosen with 4 plasgun and a missile launcher for 260 points.

 

A deep striking Terminator unit would be more like 3 to 5 sized with some combi-meltas and maybe a reaper, but most likely a heavy flamer is best. Combi-Plasma is you ache for the high AP shots. If you go for the TL-Bolters they use, your better off with scoring troop support units like sonic blaster noise marines or the like.

[minigun762]

Sounds like it should be Terminators. I can't argue with that logic, as I've told other people it seems Chaos is best played aggressively and short ranged.

Terminators, deep striking on Icons mostly, make for a perfect compliment for that playstyle.

 

I'll probably go with my all-comer standard configuration of 4 Terminators, 3 Combi-Meltas, Heavy Flamer and Power Fist for 150 points.

[mightygoose]

do remember though chaos terminators have a stigma attached, opponents tend to remember codex 3.5 and pour unecessarily high volumes of fire into termi units....

[Roultox]

Thats when you toss an icon, tzeentch or nurgle on the termi unit and make it bigger if you want them to stay in the game and take punishment at an oppertune time to get in for a kill. We at least have that option, poor loyalists...

[minigun762]

We at least have that option, poor loyalists...

 

True, though to be devil's advocate, their shooty Terminators are much more shooty and their assault Terminators are much more assaulty.

We get by by being cheap and flexible.

[eyescrossed]

And we can also have half assault, half shooty termy squads.

[minigun762]

And we can also have half assault, half shooty termy squads.

 

Thats what I was trying to say, you just said it better.

Our best bet is to go with cheaper, hybrid builds.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

And we can also have half assault, half shooty termy squads.

 

Thats what I was trying to say, you just said it better.

Our best bet is to go with cheaper, hybrid builds.

 

Exactly. Power Weapons + combi plasma on the charge is better than lightning claws on the charge. Moreso, combi weapon squads can often make their point cost back just from shooting on the deepstrike, let alone whatever cc damage they do if they survive to see the next turn (which they usually do).

[Roultox]

May as well tag the typical termi units depending on the role preferred.

 

Teleporters

Rounded: Heavy Flamer, Power Fist, Combi Meltas

Vehicle: Chain Fist, Combi Meltas or Combi Plasma (side/rear)

Troop: Heavy Flamer, Bolters, a few Combi-Flamers

 

Walking

Rounded: Combi Plasma, Reaper

Vehicle: Smaller unit todding a reaper

Troop: Reaper, Bolters

 

Best icon for deep strike, Tzeentch and Nurgle, best icon for transport is khorne or slaanesh, best icon for walking is tzeentch, undivided if you use larger units and dislike running. Best support for a walking HQ thats not a monsterC. Typical use is with a bulk of marines to deter other melee harassment and bolster a normal marine's capability. Weak efficiency against heavy weapons if you dont use many vehicles to spread the love.

 

Plenty to have missed, but just a basis. Bored...

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Best icon for deep strike, Tzeentch and Nurgle, best icon for transport is khorne or slaanesh, best icon for walking is tzeentch, undivided if you use larger units and dislike running

 

Nurgle is never worth using except for fluff reasons. Tzeentch should only be used on larger squads. Unless you are transported, you should be running undivided if anything. Units below 5 men probably don't need an icon.

 

As for actual loadouts, the single most useful one is the combi plasma. It is effective against anything except av 14, and sucks for anyone getting hit by it. Most of all though, unlike other combi weapons it gets 2 shots. Flamers will only compete if shooting hordes, meltas if shooting armor or ICs. But plasma can handle MEQ and light armor, or even heavier armor if its in the rear.

[Roultox]

I disagree with nurgle icon:

Eviscerators/fists of str 3 or less before doubled now have to roll 3+, not 2+.

Banshees now must roll 6's, and are often taken as the singular unit to fight units like terminators/FNP units.

Saving 1 more out of 6 for each chance roll facing power weapons in the case of:

Characters

Mass fire of str 6 or less is affected

Any power weapon model with strength 6 or less is affected

 

Tzeentch icon is only "triggered" when something passes their armor. Nurgle icon is "triggered" when something strength 6 or less hits. Which is more numerous, and more importantly in the role of terminators, getting close or go home, makes which icon more overly valuable considering every possible situation? This is why the nurgle icon costs 10 points more then tzeentch's icon. The models that bypass nurgle's icon costs two times more.

 

Facing a power weapon, +1 to invulnerable save, or -1 to his to wound chance roll, its an equal trade. If you pack plenty of vehicles, his high end firepower will be stressed with either icon, if he packs plenty of low end firepower like sisters of battle would.

 

Although unless perhaps you face entire armies with rending and heavy hitting weapons, then the Tzeentch icon would outshine.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

What you say is mostly true, and your comparison of Icon of Nurgle and Icon of Tzeentch is accurate. However, the primary things that kill terminators are things like plasma, meltas, and power fists. Icon of Nurgle makes no difference to any of these. Terminators are already very strong against small arms fire. Making them stronger against it is of limited usefulness.

 

Also there is the matter of point cost. Icon of nurgle costs as much as 1 and 2/3rds more terminators. Unless you are in a raider, adding more terminators to the squad will increase its survivability more than either icon of nurgle or tzeentch, while also increasing the firepower. Even worse, due to the small size of terminator squads you run the risk of having to allocate wounds on your icon bearer, and both tzeentch and nurgle are a lot of points to load onto 1 model.

 

Lastly, there is the matter of morale. Terminators are not fearless. Squads of 5 or more are way too much of an investment to have run off the board. On those Icon of Chaos Glory is a must.

 

In summary, Taking Icon of Chaos Glory and a larger squad is going to be better than taking nurgle, and in most situations better than taking tzeentch. If you are in a raider, you are better off with IcoK or IcoS anyway. So the only reason to take them is fluff.

 

EDIT: Another reason not to take Icon of Nurgle is that if you are looking for a unit that can soak up tons of small arms fire plague marines do a better job than IcoN terminators anyhow.

[eyescrossed]

A reason I like Nurgle termies is the HOLY :) !!! factor from a T5, 2+/5++ unit.

I also them because my friends don't pack a ;) load of plasma weaponry, so they are instantly more survivable.

I do agree they cost way too much, though.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

A reason I like Nurgle termies is the HOLY :D !!! factor from a T5, 2+/5++ unit.

I also them because my friends don't pack a :P load of plasma weaponry, so they are instantly more survivable.

I do agree they cost way too much, though.

 

Again, using the points you spent on Icon of Nurgle to add another terminator or two to the squad will probably increase its overall durability by more.

[Roultox]

Yeah you have a point in there Drudge, but its all a matter of terminator use. Anyone close enough to get melta or rapid fire plasma should get the charge, and should be careful of where they place the unit and require backup as needed. Even if its havocs firing from across the table to help.

 

Plague Marines are a good help, but when termies arent on the field, people may tend to pick the next worse target, and they may not be the plague marines, they could be your heavy support behind those plague marines instead. Terminators offer a large threat level that demands attention.

 

As for icon to number ratio, running is a negative but for having the highest leadership in the game coupled with up to 10 terminators for 300 points total grand adding an icon the icon that gets triggered most is the most useful, and the more terminators for stat booster effects in comparison to points cost per model is most likely the strongest investment if such an investment is to be considered. Some prefer cheap, others prefer role or tactical uses, while others go all out and bolster the unit to its top capabilities.

 

Average roll of 7 failing LD test, rarity of losing a melee confrontation we'll assume its a ranged fire LD check. Average is 10 to 9, average roll of 2 dice is 7. Number of LD checks for a unit of 10 terminators made in one game on average should be about 3, 10/7/4/2 or around that. I dont see too much of a problem, if the losses could be lessened by using a defensive icon over a leadership icon for the go-getter bolster type player the losses could be up to 1 less terminator death, thus forcing more firepower to hammer them to force that leadership test in the first place.

 

Im a defensive icon type player, and I love the the icon of undivided/glory. Not just for its teleport homer/daemon telly device, cheap cost and reroll failed leadership tests. I can Abuse its fear factor of possibly having a daemon unit to come in, or another terminator unit, and even jump to psychological factors as smiling at the right time with a poker-face bluff. The reroll for LD checks works best for small units, while the more costly icons work better for the larger units for how I tend to use them, half the time I dont take an icon for the 3 termi suicide combi-melta+heavy flamer unit. (Usually kills their cost when they arrive or better)

 

Not trying to argue or dispute, just my opinions, I sound pretty arrogant don't I? :\

 

Edit: Typo galore.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

For me I would say Termies alway win over a unit of Chosen (my friend Ian won UKGT heat 3 inspired by my IW will agree :D )

 

Just for me I pick Termies over chosen for the follow reason

- Give them Combi Plasma, fair enough it a one per game weapon. But I alway deep strike my Termies near by a Icon

- 2+ armour save

- We can assault after was rapided fire

- Power Weapons

- I have two 4 Termiy unit that 140pts (as said all arm with Combi Plasma)

- I found them a great counter attack unit, while my Rhino units might be held up for a little bit, can alway have Termies assault the turn after they deep strike :P

 

I tend to not take Icon with my Termies as I do exspect them to be killed (though it rarely happen :D ) & well it Iron Warriors, on top that I rather spend the pts from the Mark Icon on other cool thing. Only Icon I have are Undivided on my 10 man squads mounted in Rhinos.

As said it is Iron Warriors & just the pts cost onto them.

 

Chosen

- Fair enough if army with Plasma guns & can fire as much as you like (unlike a Combi Plasma)

- There a bit more pts than a unit of Termies if you want the set up right

- Not really got that much of a Close Combat punch, to set them up as such is more point spent on them.

- Sure they get Flank... but rememeber it is random. While Termies can deep Strike where you want (as said with Icon alway take some).

 

During my gaming club tournament Rapid Fire vs Tau, I found my Termies have done better than my unit of Chosen (modeled as Fallen Angels). Chosen just die to easy, while Termies took a lot of shot & only loss one in the amount time a unit chosen where wipe out.

 

Also here note from my tournament report on why I built my Iron Warriors list the way it is

 

Also as said why I pick stuff I did (already said in GT topic but just let people see it here as well).

 

Iron Warriors 5th Grand Company

 

HQ

Warsmith Abhorred Riddick (Daemon Prince), Wings - 130

- The Daemon Prince is just a really cool model first & formost. Background wise with the model being my warsmith it a big bit as well as said vs Blood Angels. Also unit wise a Daemon Prince... though can not get some great upgread's as they use to in 3.5 days, they are more survible since they can no longer be killed by S10 Weapons, also there cheaper to be honsty.

In my Army the Daemon Prince one & only role is of course close combat & he the rock hard combat unit in my army with a might WS7 will pretty much slap anything he fight with a might S6 following.

I not went for any marks because where IW's & I want to stick to the background. While Psychic powers, to be honsty though Lash is good I just find it over rated & rather have more gun's while other power... again IW & my Warsmith background wise has never been a psychicer.

Also I want to prove it in games as well

 

See the mortal version of Warsmith Abhorred Riddick here back in my 2001-2002 army for my first tournament Conflict Scotland

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=151373&hl=

 

Elites

Squad 7: Tormentia,

4x Termies arm with Power Weapon & combi Plasma - 140

 

Squad 8: Proeliator

4x Termies arm with Power Weapon & Combi Plasma - 140

 

- Well apart from the Daemon Prince, when I pick armies I like my unit to have a min of two roles in the army, as you will see most it shooting as well as dealing great in combat (depend what there against of course). With the Termies was another "I like the models & cool conversion". Also with Combi Plasma there great & cheap. On a unit of Termies who will ALWAY Deep Strike useing the Icon's best thing to ever have Icon Glory (if your going for God mark for normal Marines better just getting the cult unit them self), pick out small elite units/Monster or tanks (since I only have 4x Oblit & my Chaos Marines are usely in combat 95% of the time). The turn after Deep Striken, ether counter attack what ever my 10 man Chaos squad hold up, or go after small elite units with (if there still full strength of course) 12 Power Weapon attacks.

Also have a nice 2+ save alway great.

 

Troops

Squad 1: Iupatus Proeliator

9 Chaos Space Marines, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Icon of Glory

Champ, Power Weapon - 215

Rhino, Extra armour - 50

 

Squad 2: Be Graphicus

9 Chaos Space Marines, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter, Icon of Glory

Champ, Power Weapon - 215

Rhino, Extra armour - 50

 

Squad 3: Apocalypse

9 Chaos Space Marines, Melta Gun, Heavy Bolter, Icon of Glory

Champ, Power Weapon - 215

Rhino, Extra armour - 50

 

- 5th Ed as well all know is about troops. I found my three unit to do alright, did try adding a 5 man squad but took away so much needed punch in theforce & was going to try a unit Bezerker for this event but again it just took away part that where really needed.

In general as said I like my unit for a few role. Nothing more nicer (IMO) than seeing a squad of 10 Chaos just boltering a squad to death. Heavy Bolter there to make use of the Rhino Hatch in the even I face Hordes or when holding a object, also plastic devastators HB just look cool on chaos marines.

Rhino's, again with the release of 5th Ed tanks have became a little better (though I still not a fan of the defence weapon being S4 now :) ) they keep my troop safe (well unless there blow up of course) & mean when I reach the enemies line I can pretty puch punch grab them by the nose & punch there teeth in with mass bolter, follow by 10 marine charging in as don't underestamate (sp) normal close combat attacks.

But yes Rhinos are also there for blocking true line of sight as well in the event stuff dose not go to plan or when I am holding the object as last thing you want is your unit wipe out.

 

I did not go for any cult unit (though as said above I have Bezerker painted up). Just again it Iron Warriors, sure I can use count as & there fearless... but just again want to prove that basic Chaos Marines do great as well.

 

Heavy Support:

Squad 5: Excessus Fillius

2 Oblits - 150

 

Squad 4: Oburo

1 Oblit - 75

 

Squad 6: Hydra Infensus

1 Oblit - 75

 

- Obliterators... it Iron Warriors, it why I started them. My friend who use to work for GW that the time back when Chaos Marine just came out for 3rd Ed made a really cool Thasound Son force with Obliterators for support. The conversion where really great & so I copy his idea but with my own changies of course.

Index Astarties came out & I just really like the Iron Warriors background (since it was a bit more detail), I like the new art work & the image it give of Iron Warriors, seen about they where allow more Obliterators (back when they use to be rubbish game wise).

Anyway.... Obliterators role is to alway set up hiden behind the Rhino until my first turn, there my only long range fire power in the army with the aim to deal with tanks & small elite units. There cheaper than Havocs, most all they can move & fire which it a lot better with the Dawn of War set up. Also with a nice power fist there able to handly it out in close combat. I will alway have Obliterators in my army.

 

In general when I was making my Iron Warriors, I am not a fan of stastic armies as I find them boring to use. For me my style of warfare has been Mobilty & I like to play aggressive with my armies alway have them in your face grab you by the nose & punch you teeth in (not really toward people, just mean this as the style of my gaming) as again I hate hideing the whole games & then just grab the Object last min with out doing anything to the oppent army, just not in me.

As you seen in my Iron Warriors force everthing can move & shoot you up, following with a mass assault with a might 30 Chaos Space Marines, 8 Termies, a Daemon Prince with Obliterators slow getting there giveing covering fire.

As you see from my photos & from other report my Iron Warriors rarely stay still.

 

I may not be the world greatiest gamer (though I do put up a hard battle & done alright in this yearr tournament sence with 5th & 4th place :D ), but ever oppent I fight have said my games have been challegeing & if they win then it been pretty hard work. With 5th Ed I really have found it add onto this & really dose make you think a lot more, as after the tournament (listed below) everone I talk to all feel there mind just going on shut down after the event which is good as you want to feel challenge in games, you never want a easy game.

The main thing is after each game, you learnt from them & I feel from 5th Ed I really am learning a lot more which is great as it alway give you though for the brain & nothing worst than learning nothing from a game.

As GT 2006 show, when I went to my old local GW the gamer there where not the best, I would learn nothing new, got to GT 2006 & make so many mistake & was worst GT for me in term of games. But 2007 to now I am learning new things which is important & alway good for both myself & my oppent making the game more challegeing.

 

When I pick a army as said I make sure there able to do a min of two role as I am not much of a fan (apart from Daemon Prince) of taken units that are limited to one role.

I pick my army as long as it by the codex/rules, like wise I am more than happy to fight any army that it by the codex/rule book as ever army offer a challenge & come down to the player useing them as well it only if the oppent a git I would not fight them.

 

I have not found any weakness in my army, just come down to ether being out object, out played, etc... I dout I will change my army as said above I try a 5 man squad by dropping 2x Termies & a Heavy Bolter Marine but just did not feel right & those two Extra Termies & Heavy Bolter really did make the change/help I needed while play testing. While Bezerker I try them out... I will keep them for 1750pts but in 1500pts as said I want unit that can handly a min of two role's & just Icon's really work well in the event I need to keep one unit back to hold a home Object.

 

As said 5th Ed really has became less predictable.

 

Hope this make sence :D

 

I have alway enjoy useing my Termies in the list, keeping them nice & cheap (if that can be said for a unit of Termies ;) ) as said my friend Iain went from a unit of Chosen gear out with Plasma Guns to Termies, he went for a 5 man unit with all Combi Plasma & 1 Power Fist. He never regreated dropping his chosen. He found the Termies a lot better during the UK Grand Tournament heat 3 & understood why I took them over chosen. While same time he had so much pts left over from the Chosen to Termies he mange to fit a bit more punch to his army.

 

On that note with Chaos I feel best way is to play them aggresive & Termies are a great support.

 

But that just my view, end of the day it how these unit work in your army & what your overall plan is. Best thing to do is to try out both units & see what once you like best. As it all about making your army work together & to support each other.

As the saying gose, "united we stand, devided we fall". Just for me it is alway going to be Termies over chosen because they fit into my gaming style & over all plan, supporting my Rhinos units. Also as said I just like the model... dose get a bit boring IMO when you got a shed load of power armour (30 will do me in my IW :D ) so Termies add a nice break up.

 

IP

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Yeah you have a point in there Drudge, but its all a matter of terminator use. Anyone close enough to get melta or rapid fire plasma should get the charge, and should be careful of where they place the unit and require backup as needed. Even if its havocs firing from across the table to help.

 

What you say here is true in general, but is also a bit of a logical fallacy. You might get the charge on anyone rapid firing, but just as easily you might not. In fact it is much more unlikely that you still won't get to them. For example, if they are 10-12 inches away but you have to move through terrain to get to them then on average you won't. Or they could want you to charge them, knowing that they'll win since they cut your numbers down. Or it could be enough plasma to wipe the terminator squad completely. Or, my favorite, you get rapid fired by one unit and charged by another.

 

Plague Marines are a good help, but when termies arent on the field, people may tend to pick the next worse target, and they may not be the plague marines, they could be your heavy support behind those plague marines instead. Terminators offer a large threat level that demands attention.

 

Was this in response to my plague marine comment? What i meant is that the point of nurgle terminators is that they are almost immune to small arms, but plague marines are actually harder to kill with small arms as 3+ save and FNP > 2+ save. Also they are scoring, and 10 man squads suffer less from taking a few plasma shots than 5 mans. So if you want something hard to kill with small arms, plagues are better.

 

As for icon to number ratio, running is a negative but for having the highest leadership in the game coupled with up to 10 terminators for 300 points total grand adding an icon the icon that gets triggered most is the most useful, and the more terminators for stat booster effects in comparison to points cost per model is most likely the strongest investment if such an investment is to be considered. Some prefer cheap, others prefer role or tactical uses, while others go all out and bolster the unit to its top capabilities.

 

I disagree. The Icon that keeps the squad alive and fighting for the longest is the most useful. It is true that Icons are the most beneficial on larger squads, but that doesn't mean Icon of Nurgle is better than Chaos Glory in larger squads. I would argue that it is actually worse because then you lose more points worth of guys if you fail morale. You are right that preference is a factor, but i would say that most are going to prefer the option that performs the best.

 

Average roll of 7 failing LD test, rarity of losing a melee confrontation we'll assume its a ranged fire LD check. Average is 10 to 9, average roll of 2 dice is 7. Number of LD checks for a unit of 10 terminators made in one game on average should be about 3, 10/7/4/2 or around that. I dont see too much of a problem, if the losses could be lessened by using a defensive icon over a leadership icon for the go-getter bolster type player the losses could be up to 1 less terminator death, thus forcing more firepower to hammer them to force that leadership test in the first place.

 

This is true. But if you are running a 10 man terminator squad, unless you are playing apoc then if you lose that terminator squad you've pretty much lost the game. No matter what you do, without Fearless or ATSKNF we just plain lose a game now and then to crappy leadership roles. Even if you only take 1 LD check a game with that 10 man terminator squad you are going to automatically lose about 1 in 6 games. Is that acceptable to you? It certainly isn't to me.

 

And yes, a 10 man terminator squad is unlikely to lose in CC. But as has been mentioned in this thread, there are plenty of units that will just destroy them there. If i were to play against a 10 man termy squad i'd shoot some ap2 weapons at it to drop its numbers by a couple them jump my two daemon princes into it and watch it run off the board. If they have Chaos Glory i'll probably still kill it, but it'll probably mean they get another round of attacks off first.

 

The reroll for LD checks works best for small units, while the more costly icons work better for the larger units for how I tend to use them, half the time I dont take an icon for the 3 termi suicide combi-melta+heavy flamer unit. (Usually kills their cost when they arrive or better)

 

As i said before, i disagree with this. Icons are less needed on smaller squads because they cannot take as large a minus to their leadership. If you've got a 3 man terminator squad and it loses 66% of the squad, thats only 2 guys and its only a -2, for 8 leadership. If you are a 10 man squad and you lose 66% of the squad thats a -6 or -7 which you'll probably fail. Also smaller squads are likely to just get completely wiped and not live to a leadership test if they arn't winning. So i never bother with Icon of Chaos glory on squads below 5. I don't think the stat boosting icons are any different though. On smaller squads it just inflates their cost more, and adds less to the unit. So, its really just a matter of all Icons being better on larger units.

 

Not trying to argue or dispute, just my opinions, I sound pretty arrogant don't I? :\

 

Nah you sound fine. I'm not trying to argue either, but i am disputing :blink: You are entitled to your opinions, but i think there is a mathematically proveable "best" option here.