Fire Support Elite Choice

[Roultox]

Considering all the possible situations terminators can get in I try to focus on their good points and enhance that if I can.

 

Plague Terminator requires: (cra... I lost my mathhammer wordpad document, lol, redoing the math...) 1 wound needs: 6 wounds to save / 12 heavy bolter hits (or) 18 bolter shots hit (or) 36 lasgun shots hit... BS 3 is 50% chance, BS4 is 66% chance, roughly add 1/3rd of the shots that hit (18 heavy bolter shots for BS4) and so on. Feel no pain reduces the armor save of 3+ down 50% at 1.5+ save technicly (terminator is 2.0+). Point for point plague marines are better, lacking the INV save and what have the enemy that also negates feel no pain. Both the same toughness, terminator comes with extra gear and an Inv save in comparison, average power weapon weilding model is 28+ points or a lucky possessed power weapon roll.

 

In contrast the main use of terminators is close combat. The prime failure of the Nurgle icon is Rending, power fists/hammers etc that push strength beyond 6 that ignore armor saves, and for poisoned power weapons that always wound on a fixed number (2+ or 4+). The rarity of such weapons among units that are tacticly sound against terminators are either weak to being shot at, have a high cost to wound ratio, comes in piecemeal and possibly easy to deal with the right combination force (shooty unit helping from afar).

 

Genestealers; Special HQ's; Harlequins; Slaanesh Daemon units; Terminators and their archetypes totting strength doublers. All such units can be dealth with one decisive (yet partially lucky) blow from an equal points cost chaos terminator unit set up with the typical face-all combi weapons and/or upgrades. Typiclly Heavy Flamer, Combi-Meltas or Combi-Plasmas, or just pure bolters and go for more terminators. Deep strike allows first strikes, and tactical maneuvering can be descisive in its own way, given the player is prepared to support his costly terminator unit.

 

In most other situations, strength 6 or less being within a 18" average distance with one or several units the Icon of Nurgle will prove useful. I say people get what they pay for sometimes, I say its true with the icon of nurgle. We certainly have different takes dont we? There was a few cases where I got nothing but 4's on inv saves, and other times where an eldar player rolled nothing but 5's and below trying to wound my nurgle terminators. There is a luck factor, the nurgle icon counts on the opponents rolls.

 

In mathammer, the lower the food chain you go with ranged weapons, the more thats required to take out a target, I like to try and cut the rolls as much as possible before the final roll to remove a model, the invulnerable save. The Nurgle icon enhances the 2+ save and the 5+ inv save against str6 or less. THe tzeentch icon enhances the 5_ to 4+ inv save, against only the weapons that punch through the armor. So its either pay an extra 10 points to enhane both saves against 50% of the weapon strengths used against the models, or prepare for a smaller category of AP2 and AP1 ranged weapons and str7+ power weapons and/or rending.

 

Its a hard choice once its a little dissected!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Its a hard choice once its a little dissected!

 

Certainly! I might try nurgle terminators one of these days, but there's plenty of other problems associated with taking 10 man squads >_<

[minigun762]

Its funny because while Drudge and Roultox both have very good points, my first impression is that neither Icon is needed.

Against small arms, Terminators are already 2+ and T4, thats hardly useless and against Power/AP2 weapons you still have a 5++ save.

 

Terminators come stock with some decent protection, especially for a 1 wound model.

If I didn't always run Undivided, I'd say the best Icon would be Slaanesh. Just 5 points more than Chaos Glory, you've now turned all those free Power Weapons into I5. Now you're hitting before other Marines and at the same time as Banshees and some HQ units. Hitting first/same time is a good way to protect yourself in close combat, but really its the price that sells me.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Its funny because while Drudge and Roultox both have very good points, my first impression is that neither Icon is needed.

Against small arms, Terminators are already 2+ and T4, thats hardly useless and against Power/AP2 weapons you still have a 5++ save.

 

Terminators come stock with some decent protection, especially for a 1 wound model.

If I didn't always run Undivided, I'd say the best Icon would be Slaanesh. Just 5 points more than Chaos Glory, you've now turned all those free Power Weapons into I5. Now you're hitting before other Marines and at the same time as Banshees and some HQ units. Hitting first/same time is a good way to protect yourself in close combat, but really its the price that sells me.

 

Slaanesh is my first choice for landraider squads.

[Roultox]

Ah yeah the transport icon, khorne or slaanesh? New discussion!

 

I vote Khorne, slaanesh is limited in terms of field of use (just initiative 4 and 5, you cant follow fleeing units), while extra attacks, meanwhile khorne icon costs the same for other units, indeed you get extra 'power weapons' basicly to swing at them, relying on terminator durability for any losses the icon would readily make up for in comparison to the slaanesh icon.

[crazyguy832]

Considering all the possible situations terminators can get in I try to focus on their good points and enhance that if I can.

 

Plague Terminator requires: (cra... I lost my mathhammer wordpad document, lol, redoing the math...) 1 wound needs: 6 wounds to save / 12 heavy bolter hits (or) 18 bolter shots hit (or) 36 lasgun shots hit... BS 3 is 50% chance, BS4 is 66% chance, roughly add 1/3rd of the shots that hit (18 heavy bolter shots for BS4) and so on. Feel no pain reduces the armor save of 3+ down 50% at 1.5+ save technicly (terminator is 2.0+). Point for point plague marines are better, lacking the INV save and what have the enemy that also negates feel no pain. Both the same toughness, terminator comes with extra gear and an Inv save in comparison, average power weapon weilding model is 28+ points or a lucky possessed power weapon roll.

While I mostly agree with what you said, your math is wrong.

 

A 3+ save saves 4/6 times (on a 3, 4, 5, or 6). 50% of the fails (1 or 2) will be negated.

 

1/2 of 2/6 is 1/6.

 

Against weapons that don't ignore the FNP, a PM and a Nurgle termie are 100% equal.

[minigun762]

Ah yeah the transport icon, khorne or slaanesh? New discussion!

 

I vote Khorne, slaanesh is limited in terms of field of use (just initiative 4 and 5, you cant follow fleeing units), while extra attacks, meanwhile khorne icon costs the same for other units, indeed you get extra 'power weapons' basicly to swing at them, relying on terminator durability for any losses the icon would readily make up for in comparison to the slaanesh icon.

 

Khorne is more useful more often, as Slaanesh only has an impact against I4/I5 units.

The drawback for me is that Khorne is the only normally priced Icons, its twice as much as Slaanesh, so its just a point thing.

[Roultox]

crazyguy832

-Thats why I had a wordpad document with the math, I cant focus when it comes to math and no calculator. :whistling:

 

 

I can see one use for the slaanesh icon. Everyone loves a hero, the big HQ to swoop in and kill all the enemies. Well the big problem with them is that a single instant death wound removes them. Most of those are initiative 5, and cost a buttload, and I mean 130-ish points for 3 wounds, adding in terminator armor it would boast to 140-150 points for most marine players. Thinking of terminators as the "hero divided among bodies", can pump 9 attacks with just 3 models and a icon of slaanesh at 105 points.

 

All 3 wounds are "eternal warrior", terminator armor, but loses attacks and momentum when they start dying off, the good thing is that they are a 9 attack "daemon weapon" at 3 models on the charge. Though blast weapons that end up hitting 2+ do more damage, and no independant character status... Drawbacks to it, but hey... 3 elite "HQs" and 2 real HQs, its starting to feel like a holiday. The fun part is that you can pack 10 termies per elite, counting as 3.3 "HQs" per elite. Poking at the idea, having 32 I5 power weapon models would piss off a marine player pretty badly. Add in some Thousand sons and then watch him fume.

 

That sounds fun actually.... Tons of "I hit you first" stuff that ignore saves. 2 Tzeentch lords with daemon weapons to spit death, 30 termies with combi-plasma and icons of slaanesh, and 30 thousand sons or so, adding in three more force weapons to the mix. .. .. Ok, before my wallet screams at me I'll just stop. :P

[minigun762]

Thats not a horrible idea at all, though my gut instinct tells me to bulk it up to 4 guys.

3 Combi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Icon of Slaanesh = 155 points, pretty cheap for an HQ unit and dead killy, even at range.

[Dràyhèn]

Four-man teams do everything at medium efficiency. I prefer three- or five-man teams, as those are more specialised, and their roles are clear. Units of three are supposed to ds and wreck some vehicle, or to melt some monster etc (one trick pony), while units of five are mostly coming near the icons and are supposed to pose a serious threat which can't be ignored. Four just don't make it, they die a little bit easier than five, and only have a slight edge to three. Five have enough firepower to bring down almost anything, four can't be trusted to finish the job, and three are just for disabling or wounding their target.

[Roultox]

I usually set aside 100 points, and fill anything else in the termies could muster after I made up the rest of the army. Having filler left when you got 3 (or more) termies to equip feels more like your mincing every point for its worth.

[minigun762]

I find it funny that instead of being the glamorous part of the army, we tend to treat Terminators as an independant, semi-scout force that operates beyond the scope of the main force.

 

Kinda like modern day special forces. They go blow up the bridge or take out the tower so the rank and file can make it up that hill/beach/city.