Land Raider

[Ragnars Claw]

Who do people think of land raiders in 5th?

 

In particular in a 1750pt Space Wolf list?

 

I'm tempted to take one but they are a lot of points and to me they still just scream 'kill me'. They can't really hide and there are loads of weapons that can make a mockery of their armour. However some people i speak to really rate them. Why are they so much better in 5th all of a sudden? I just can't see it...

[LPetersson]

I never played 4th so I don't know if they got boosted somehow...

 

I would recommend getting one or two so you can use them when you feel like it.

 

Yes, it will draw an awful lot of fire, but it means that the rest of you're army isn't being shot at.

If you're playing against someone with lot's of tanks, the two TLLCs on the standard LR are lovely. If you're playing Horder armies or someone that like coversaves, the Flamestorm Cannons on the LRR are pretty sweet.

 

Incidentally, I don't see anything wrong with bringing what ever you feel like bringing regardless of the points you're playing for.

Wanna bring 3 LRs at 1750pts? Go for it..

 

I like my land raiders and use them fairly often...

[dragon950]

The only weapons that can make a mockery of a land raider are the necrons guass weapons, the eldar lance weapon, and melta-guns at half range. But since ap1 guns no longer pierce armor, thats the change that they made to armor in 5th, your troops are pretty safe in a land raider. Even str 10 ap1 guns need to roll a 5 to penentrate or a 6 if they glanced to do any real damage. If your really worried give it smoke launchers or put it behind stuff.

[Wena]

I always use at least one Land Raider in a 1750 list. In a 6 month league I am currently part of the first 1250 points are static the whole time and in that 1250 points includes a Land Raider as a dedicated transport for my Wolf Priest and WG Bodyguard in TDA.

 

I sometimes add a LRC to the other 500 points to transport Ragnar and his crew depending on the list I will be facing during the next round. (Of course I skipped the second raider last week as I played Eldar - I'm scared of Bright Lances).

 

The advantages of having a dedicated HQ Land Raider transport are tremendous. In Dawn of War battles you now have two troop selections and a Land Raider with HQ and Termies in it at the start as opposed to most other armies with just an HQ. Stick it right in the middle of the board and assult 18" first turn, also "searchlights" anyone?. In objective battles you have a mobile fortress that contests an objective or even better, throw a small squad inside and now you own the objective. I loved them in 4th edition and now in 5th I like them even more. Machine Spirit is soooo much better now!

 

Note: In the battle against the Eldar the Land Raider never got scratched...

 

I could keep going but will stop B)

 

Wena

[G. A. K.]

The advantages of having a dedicated HQ Land Raider transport are tremendous. In Dawn of War battles you now have two troop selections and a Land Raider with HQ and Termies in it at the start as opposed to most other armies with just an HQ.

I don't believe that is a legal move for DOW. Just like a transport takes up a troop deployment, the raider would count as a seperate HQ choice in terms of deploying only one HQ and two troops.

 

But on to the question of why they are so much better in 5th ed. It is simple... now with the rules for assaulting vehicles, all attacks are on the rear armor of tanks, orks and thier klaws, nids and the rends, they all go against the weak rear AV 10. Except on the old raider who has AV 14 all around!! And the new glancing rules help too because it is a lot harder to be destroyed with a -2 to your roll.

As far as I can tell those are the only bonuses because as you said it is really had to get the 51% obscured cover save now with them being so tall and long :P . And with the new machine spirit rules; you can still shoot one gun even if you go 12", making it had to use smoke instead.

 

G

[Wena]

It is legal in DOW because it is a dedicated transport to the HQ and his retinue. Also don't forget, if you have less than 50% cover you change your cover save from 4+ to 5+ regardless of how much cover there is. Plus the other reasons you have mentioned... hurray for Wolfy Raiders...

[Denkal]

The advantages of having a dedicated HQ Land Raider transport are tremendous. In Dawn of War battles you now have two troop selections and a Land Raider with HQ and Termies in it at the start as opposed to most other armies with just an HQ.

I don't believe that is a legal move for DOW. Just like a transport takes up a troop deployment, the raider would count as a seperate HQ choice in terms of deploying only one HQ and two troops.

 

Actually, you can buy a Land Raider as a transport option for Wolf Guard Bodyguard, and the IC they were purchased for. Thus, they're all one HQ Selection.

[Spacefrisian]

The advantages of having a dedicated HQ Land Raider transport are tremendous. In Dawn of War battles you now have two troop selections and a Land Raider with HQ and Termies in it at the start as opposed to most other armies with just an HQ.

I don't believe that is a legal move for DOW. Just like a transport takes up a troop deployment, the raider would count as a seperate HQ choice in terms of deploying only one HQ and two troops.

 

Actually, you can buy a Land Raider as a transport option for Wolf Guard Bodyguard, and the IC they were purchased for. Thus, they're all one HQ Selection.

 

But thats quite a chunk of points if you ask me.

 

Its best to keep him in reserve let it come on the table in reverse and get youre men within 2" of that ramp. Not to mention that youre opponent needs to roll to check range in DOW so they are still safe even if not yet in Landraider.

[Ragnars Claw]

Also don't forget, if you have less than 50% cover you change your cover save from 4+ to 5+ regardless of how much cover there is.

 

Really?

[Spacefrisian]

Also don't forget, if you have less than 50% cover you change your cover save from 4+ to 5+ regardless of how much cover there is.

 

Really?

 

I guess the guy has a special edition BRB.

[G. A. K.]

The advantages of having a dedicated HQ Land Raider transport are tremendous. In Dawn of War battles you now have two troop selections and a Land Raider with HQ and Termies in it at the start as opposed to most other armies with just an HQ.

I don't believe that is a legal move for DOW. Just like a transport takes up a troop deployment, the raider would count as a seperate HQ choice in terms of deploying only one HQ and two troops.

 

Actually, you can buy a Land Raider as a transport option for Wolf Guard Bodyguard, and the IC they were purchased for. Thus, they're all one HQ Selection.

 

I understand that they don't take up two HQ slots on the FOC but in the example for DOW they state that if you deploy a troop choice with thier dedicated transport, they count as both of your troop deployment choices for the mission (pg.93; lower right corner). Therefore, by the same logic, the HQ unit with it's dedicated transport would count as two HQ choices for the purposes of deployment. (However you could deploy just the raider without anyone in it and leave the retinue off table till later)

At my first 5th ed. tournament I was the only one who read that part and had to tell the judges :lol: .

 

And on the cover issue:

You only downgrade the save to a 5+ if there is a question of whether the vehicle is 49% vs. 50%, not anything less than 50% (pg. 62).

 

G

[Grey Mage]

They got tougher. You can no longer kill a landraider in one shot with a missile launcher.... as an example. There are in fact relatively few weapons that mock landraiders. IMHO they are:

 

Bright/Darklances. Who still have to hit and then only penetrate on a 5+

Railguns. Str 10 and upgradable BS is rough Ill admit.

Vindicators. Scatter doesnt matter as much vs a landraider.

 

On the other other hand however if they dont roll a complete kill you can usually ignore the shot. A landraider can always move and shoot even if crew stunned or crew shaken. Thus they can get out of range of enemy weaponry and return fire against there would-be killers.

 

Now if its the only peice of armor your planning to drop down.... then your probly SOL, even at 1750pts. Why? Because theyll have more AT fire than you can reasonably handle. But throw in a predator and a couple of rhinos, not to mention your venerable dreadnaught or drop-podding ironclad and they simply wont be able to concentrate enough firepower on it in one turn to kill it and deal with the rest of your forces.

 

Landraiders are quite good, atleast the normal and the crusader. Ive yet to use a redeemer and so cant say. They arent the be all end all, but they should have a place in any wolves force.

[Fellblades]

To go along with what Grey Mage said, it depends on what kind of army list you're running with. I use a very infantry heavy mech list w/rhinos so i find it hard to spare the points, but if you have a more balanced army that includes various types of armored stuff, like razorbacks and speeders, you can force the enemy to spread out their AT fire alot more.

[Wena]

I would argue against counting the Land Raider as seperate from the HQ unit.

 

It certainly is not it's own HQ unit (read page 67 - Dedicated Transports) for the ruling there. The example on page 93 says the troops transport counts as a second unit of troops but does not indicate that an HQ is unable to take it's dedicated tranport as part of it's unit. Also the Rule (not example) on pg. 93 says: "and up to one unit from his HQ selections" - I take that to mean the whole unit unless otherwise specifically indicated (again see pg. 67 for dedicated transports).

 

I am definately willing to discuss this more if anyone has any other information...

 

Wena

[Wena]

QUOTE (Ragnars Claw @ Feb 4 2009, 09:08 AM)

QUOTE

Also don't forget, if you have less than 50% cover you change your cover save from 4+ to 5+ regardless of how much cover there is.

 

 

"Really?"

/QUOTE

 

"I guess the guy has a special edition BRB."

 

/QUOTE

 

We have been playing that if the cover is less than 50% but still a large amount it falls under the ruling that it is less (keeps the fights down) - I would give someone more than 49% variance and would expect the same - its pretty easy to give a land raider 50% (+/-) cover with most of the terrain out there - that it what I meant above ... not that a single little guy or bush gives the 5+ - I could have written that better...

 

P.S. I need to learn how to add quotes better...

[GunnarRedsun]

along with all the other arguements for them, there is one that no one else has said. and that is that its an assault vehicle, which means you get to deploy 2 inches out, move 6, then charge. sounds fun? it gets better. a full unit of Blood Claws in a crusader is a disgusting thing to unload on someone, plus it keeps them safe much longer, because i don't know about y'all but they are ALWAYS the first units to get shot to crap in my army, so the thought of an armor 14 sheild for them is very nice. plus they increased its capacity to 16 models on the crusader, perfect size for a full unit of blood claws and wolf guard leash.

[Vassakov]

Well, I'm able to put 7 armoured units on the table in a 1500pts list. A Crusader packed to the gunnels with Blood Claws in a lynchpin of my list, and it's only let me down once (very, very lucky hit from an opponents Land Raider.) In other games, it's soaked up a 4 LC Dev Squads fire, Obliterators, Vindicators, Railguns, Battle Cannons and even a Warhound (alright, so the shot missed...)

[Grey Mage]

along with all the other arguements for them, there is one that no one else has said. and that is that its an assault vehicle, which means you get to deploy 2 inches out, move 6, then charge. sounds fun? it gets better. a full unit of Blood Claws in a crusader is a disgusting thing to unload on someone, plus it keeps them safe much longer, because i don't know about y'all but they are ALWAYS the first units to get shot to crap in my army, so the thought of an armor 14 sheild for them is very nice. plus they increased its capacity to 16 models on the crusader, perfect size for a full unit of blood claws and wolf guard leash.

It gets better than that, you can move 12, deploy 2, assault six. 250 pts for the old fashioned rhino rush.

[G. A. K.]

I would argue against counting the Land Raider as seperate from the HQ unit.

 

It certainly is not it's own HQ unit (read page 67 - Dedicated Transports) for the ruling there. The example on page 93 says the troops transport counts as a second unit of troops but does not indicate that an HQ is unable to take it's dedicated tranport as part of it's unit. Also the Rule (not example) on pg. 93 says: "and up to one unit from his HQ selections" - I take that to mean the whole unit unless otherwise specifically indicated (again see pg. 67 for dedicated transports).

 

I am definately willing to discuss this more if anyone has any other information...

 

Wena

I think we are argueing two different points. on pg 3 "the different elements of a unit have to stay together to remain an effective fighting force." this refers to squadrons and artillery batteries. unless you contend that you will remain in cohesion with the tank, it is a seperate unit. Which moves on its own and can contest objectives by itself.

Following only the DOW example for deployment of units it is therefore a second HQ unit and would not be allowed; due to the strict rule of only ever allowing the deployment of a maximum of one HQ and two troop units.

The dedicated transport section only states that it isn't a seperate slot on the FOC and only says the the transport may be selected with the unit but it doesn't say it becomes part of the unit.

I care not how you play, your house rules etc. However don't fail to see how the rules are written, or be surprised if you find an opponent who doesn't agree with your deployment as allowed by those rules.

 

G

[dragon950]

In the sw codex it says that blood claws can only have a rhino. Does that mean that blood claws can only ride in a rhino or that blood claws can only have a rhino as a dedicated transport?

 

Also my friend said that bright lances reduces that armor of any vehicle that has 12 or higher to 12.

[Grey Mage]

As a dedicated transport, RAW you cant use bloodclaw rhinos for any other units either.... they probly leave to much of a mess.

 

Yes, Brightlances do reduce armor over 12 to 12.... and they are str8, so they glance on a 4 and penetrate on a 5+, see?

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Blood Claws + Land Raider Crusader = PAIN! charge a mob of orks and see who laughs then.

[Wena]

I would argue against counting the Land Raider as seperate from the HQ unit.

 

It certainly is not it's own HQ unit (read page 67 - Dedicated Transports) for the ruling there. The example on page 93 says the troops transport counts as a second unit of troops but does not indicate that an HQ is unable to take it's dedicated tranport as part of it's unit. Also the Rule (not example) on pg. 93 says: "and up to one unit from his HQ selections" - I take that to mean the whole unit unless otherwise specifically indicated (again see pg. 67 for dedicated transports).

 

I am definately willing to discuss this more if anyone has any other information...

 

Wena

I think we are argueing two different points. on pg 3 "the different elements of a unit have to stay together to remain an effective fighting force." this refers to squadrons and artillery batteries. unless you contend that you will remain in cohesion with the tank, it is a seperate unit. Which moves on its own and can contest objectives by itself.

Following only the DOW example for deployment of units it is therefore a second HQ unit and would not be allowed; due to the strict rule of only ever allowing the deployment of a maximum of one HQ and two troop units.

The dedicated transport section only states that it isn't a seperate slot on the FOC and only says the the transport may be selected with the unit but it doesn't say it becomes part of the unit.

I care not how you play, your house rules etc. However don't fail to see how the rules are written, or be surprised if you find an opponent who doesn't agree with your deployment as allowed by those rules.

 

G

 

You are right... see pg. 87 Dedicated Transports. The dedicated transport counts as whatever Orgizational unit its is assigned to. Troops dedicated transport is a troop, elite dedicated transport is elite and therefore an HQ transport would count as an HQ. (It doesn't count towards the max units from that slot but does count as an individual unit).

 

I found this playing a game today looking to see if a immobolized dedicated transport can still contest objectives.

 

I feel bad - I have been cheatin folks and no one has ever called me on it (slaps hand)...

 

Wena

[G. A. K.]

@ Wena

 

I'm glad we've settled our little dispute. I never noticed that paragraph on transports before... interesting.

I wouldn't worry too much about the mistake though because thats all it was, a mistake, its only cheating if you know the rules say you can't, but you do it anyways because you don't get caught <_<

 

G

[LPetersson]

In the sw codex it says that blood claws can only have a rhino. Does that mean that blood claws can only ride in a rhino or that blood claws can only have a rhino as a dedicated transport?

 

Blood Claws can only choose a Rhino as a dedicated transport, but after the game starts they can commandeer any transport that they can fit into.

 

As a dedicated transport, RAW you cant use bloodclaw rhinos for any other units either.... they probly leave to much of a mess.

 

Acutally, RAW on page 67 quite clearly states that any unit can use another units dedicated transport as long as the models will fit. But the unit can not begin the game in another units dedicated transport.