Chaos Legion's Fleet Size

[minigun762]

Does anyone have any hard numbers on the size/composition of the different Legion's fleets?

You see references to a vessel here or there, but I have a hard time seeing if a single warship is a huge prize or merely one of many tools.

Dark Disciple makes references to 7 Battleship classed warships I believe, yet its not clear if that is all of the fleet, the bulk of it or just a handful.

 

Also, were any of the original Traitor Legions particularly adept at space combat? Either ship to ship or boarding actions?

[Redbaron997]

Well in the DD book, the 7 Battleships were the ships of the line of the fleet. I think that was a section of a segmuntum fleet and thus very large. Every battle ship would have escorts.

 

Think of a US carrier group. You got the Carrier, then usually about 1-2 Crusiers, about 2-4 destroyers, some marine landing ships if they are attached, 2-4 supply ships, and 0-2 attack submarines all working in concert with each other.

 

If you have or can look at the EOT campaign book, it lists all the major vessels that were known to take place in the campaign.

[Phosis]

Also, were any of the original Traitor Legions particularly adept at space combat? Either ship to ship or boarding actions?

 

During the Great Crusade, the Thousand Sons, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves were noted for their excellent maneuvering abilities in space. They came out on top due to a number of factors, some of which include teleportation, bow ramming, boarding and haul, and bottom-up ordinance, in no particular order.

 

Usually, most of those legions came from cultures who had a sea-faring background in their homeworlds' early years.. For example, Egyptians were skilled seafarers (only close to their country, though), Romans for the Ultramarines, and the sea-hardy Norse for the Space Pups. This goes to show how GW likes to create armies that we can relate to, if we have a certain love for a culture or fighting style.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Since you are HH-era traitors, you will have access to ships of the line that nowadays would be restricted to the Imperial Navy. 'Modern' loyalist Chapters are restricted to specialist planetary assault craft, only escorts and below are allowed to be pure gunboats. As Traitor Legions you ignore that restriction.

[minigun762]

Some good points everyone. They would have access to a much wider variety of ships than the Loyalists as was mentioned, not to mention the ability to steal any kind of Imperial/Loyalist ship from the current time.

I know that for current Imperial fleets, having a dozen capital ships is considered quite a large fleet in any one area, so if a Legion had two or three times that amount, that would be easily considered a very real naval threat.

[Phosis]

Psh.

 

You're face is a real naval threat.

 

Okay maybe that wasn't so good- I'll keep trying.

 

I love the BFG Imperial cruisers, and I have a little red possessed ship with Heresy-era Thousand Sons colors, just for fun.. As if it got lost while fleeing the battle on Terra, and now it's just floating around causing chaos within my little Tzeentch fleet. I have that ship, a flagship, and two little cruisers. I think that's good enough to transport two or three 'tabletop battle' size forces, and would only be a fraction of everything a "Legion" could muster (if in fact someone could unify all the warbands in one spot).

 

Unification: Without that, noone will be able to record chaos fleet sizes

[Grand Master Tyrak]

minigun762 Posted Today, 03:46 AM

Some good points everyone. They would have access to a much wider variety of ships than the Loyalists as was mentioned, not to mention the ability to steal any kind of Imperial/Loyalist ship from the current time.

I know that for current Imperial fleets, having a dozen capital ships is considered quite a large fleet in any one area, so if a Legion had two or three times that amount, that would be easily considered a very real naval threat.

 

Two to three dozen capital ships? Your are looking at full Black Crusade size there. Sector fleets can only field between five and ten capital ships. Any higher and you are looking at Segmentum Warfleet levels.

[minigun762]

minigun762 Posted Today, 03:46 AM

Some good points everyone. They would have access to a much wider variety of ships than the Loyalists as was mentioned, not to mention the ability to steal any kind of Imperial/Loyalist ship from the current time.

I know that for current Imperial fleets, having a dozen capital ships is considered quite a large fleet in any one area, so if a Legion had two or three times that amount, that would be easily considered a very real naval threat.

 

Two to three dozen capital ships? Your are looking at full Black Crusade size there. Sector fleets can only field between five and ten capital ships. Any higher and you are looking at Segmentum Warfleet levels.

 

Really that small?

 

I'm thinking back to the Dark Disciple book and they're discussing the Imperial Fleet over the doomed plaent and I thought it was atleast a dozen ships of Cruiser size or larger and that was just over 1 system. Naturally they aren't only in that system, but I supposed I didn't think that was all the ships in a huge radius.

[Redbaron997]

A dozen CRUISER size (and there was probably a few Battleships there)

 

A cruiser is only about 1/2 to 2/3 the tonnage and firepower of a Battleships. Also dont forget that in the DD book that was part of a Segmentum Warfleet, not a sector fleet or anything, it was a segmuntim wide effort of evacuation and fighting the Tyrannids.

 

To give some comparison i believe a SM battle barge is about the size of a large size Crusier(though they are way overequipped on guns to almost battleship levels) A battlebarge has on average the size and equipment to host 3 Full companies including armored and logistic support, not counting its crew (a few thousand at least).

 

So i dont think you are putting enough weight on non Battleship class ships. Crusiers are very powerful as well, and are often the flagships of smaller fleets. Destroyers are bristling with guns and torpedoes are as compartevly very vast. There are also Carriers that arent considered Battleships that can carry literally hundreds of fighter and bomber spacecraft. Then you still have light ships such as Frigates that while smaller and not as deadly, usually come at you in waves of 3 to 5. So even though a fleet may only have say 5 Battleships, it would probably have around 20-30 smaller ships of varying tonnage.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Yes, Capital Ships refers to Grand Cruisers and Battleships only. Cruisers, the more common ships of the line, range from Battlecruisers to Light Cruisers. The final section is Escorts.

 

As far as Imperial fleets go, it seems to be about 1 Capital Ship per every 5-8 Cruisers, and 1 Cruiser per every 1-2 Squadron of Escorts (Squadrons are between 3 and 6 ships).

 

A standard Sector Battlefleet will be lucky to have more than one Capital Ship, more than a few will have a Battlecruiser or Heavy Cruiser as their flagship, especially the Reserve Fleets. The Cruiser classes are the Imperial Navy's main strength. For more information have a browse through these, the BFG background and fleet lists.

[Dark Bjoern]

Fluffwise there is no fixed size for a fleet. And as far as i can remember we have only for the actual UM fleet a concrete list of their fleet. In DD the first Acolyte has only one ship. And 13 Battle ships in orbit around Sirarus. In IA2: SM and Forces of the Inquisition there´re some examples for SM fleets from different campaigns.

Blood Angels, 3rd Armageddon War:

1 Strike Cruiser

2 Gladius Escorts

 

Ultramarines, Joran IV Retaliation Force:

2 Strike Cruisers

3 Gladius Escorts

 

Warmongers, Jakal II Interception Force

1 Battle Barge

3 Gladius Escorts

1 Nova Escort

 

Doom Eagles, 13th Black Crusade

1 Battle Barge

3 Strike Cruisers

3 Hunter Escorts

4 Gladius Escorts

1 Nova Escort

 

Some sample fleets and only SM. But i think it´s the same for any other fleet, be it SM, CSM or Imperial Navy. The size depends on the mission (expected resistance, the enemy.....). It´s an uncommon event that a sector fleet is completly deployed on a single point. And it´s even more rare that the Secmentum Fleet will gather in a single campaign. I think most active fleets are commanded by a ship of cruiser size. In Sonsof Fenris the Chaos fleet is led by a Styx heavy cruiser for example, larger battle ships are rare.

[minigun762]

Yes, Capital Ships refers to Grand Cruisers and Battleships only. Cruisers, the more common ships of the line, range from Battlecruisers to Light Cruisers. The final section is Escorts.

 

Ahh I was lumping all sorts of Cruisers into the Capital ship catergory and everything smaller was an Escort.

 

 

A dozen CRUISER size (and there was probably a few Battleships there)

 

Sounds like I was off by about a factor of 10 or so. :lol:

 

So a Sector fleet would have 0-1 Capital ships, 1-4 Cruisers probably and 5-10 escorts while a Segmentum fleet would have 2-5 Capital ships, 5-10 Cruisers and 20-50 escorts (just ballpark numbers really).

 

And a Chaos Legion fleet could range from 1-2 ships total to larger than a Segmentum fleet (if it was the whole Legion or multiple Legions)

[Grand Master Tyrak]

So a Sector fleet would have 0-1 Capital ships, 1-4 Cruisers probably and 5-10 escorts while a Segmentum fleet would have 2-5 Capital ships, 5-10 Cruisers and 20-50 escorts (just ballpark numbers really).

 

Depends on where you are in the galaxy. An out of the way sector in the Ultima Segmentum will probably have almost all the battleships as part of the Segmentum Fleet, and the Sector Fleets would be commanded by a Bettlecruiser, or a Grand Cruiser if you are lucky.

However, with the Bastion Fleets around Cadia you are likely to have anywhere between 5 and 10 Capital Ships per Sector Fleet.

 

The ratio of Cruisers to Capital Ships is probably closer to 1 Capital Ships for every 15-20 Cruisers. If you have more Capital Ships than normal, then you will have proportionally more Cruisers too. The Cruisers really are the mainstay of the Navy.

[mightygoose]

i'm sure that the legions would have had enough cruisers to transport them in their entirety during the great crusade no?

 

estimating 60-70% total casualties through the heresy and 12 grand companies of Iron Warriors prior to it, that leaves the IW with give or take 31 cruiser equivalents, (battlebarge = cruiser with more guns?)

 

so 17 cruisers, but as the grand companies operated independantly in the crusade surely these fleets would have a higher proportion of capital ships, as many as one per grand company?

 

that would put it at

 

as many as 4 capital ships

 

as many as 13 cruisers

 

as many as 20 escort ships

 

but thats for an entire legion,

 

however we know that some legions have built new ships....

 

and added marines to their ranks over the last 10k years

 

now without following protocol on ratio's you would think they might build heavier ships more often....

 

so current IW total fleet strength

 

as many as 5 Imperial navy capital ships

 

as many as 3 Battle barges (or equivalent)

 

as many as 16 Cruisers/ Strike Cruisers (or equivalent)

 

as many as 40 Escorts

 

however that is for the entire legion, and it may not all be in full working order, let alone organised into a single fleet.

 

i mean for my grand company fluff, i always said, one capital, one battle barge, 3 cruisers, 6 escorts, i know this isn't legal but it is probably quite fluffy...

[Grand Master Tyrak]

(battlebarge = cruiser with more guns?)

 

What era? The Great Crusade-era Battlebarges would have been the equivalent of Grand Cruisers, with the more famous ones reaching Battleship levels. The post-Codex Battlebarges were toned down to specialise in planetary assault rather than naval combat, and so are equivalent to Heavy Cruisers or Battlecruisers. Post-Codex Strike Cruisers are equivalent to Dauntless Class Light Cruisers.

 

Besides, for a Heresy-era Legion, like as not you wouldn't bother with Battlebarges and just take a real Battleship as your flagship. The Astartes fleets have yet to be toned down and the Imperial Navy has yet to be separated from Legion command.