Plasma Guns Still Useful?

[minigun762]

In these day of cover saves galore and expensive weapons, does the Plasmagun still have a place on the battlefield?

I ask from the perspective of a Chaos Space Marine where we can take 2 special weapons but any and all thoughts are welcome.

 

Point wise, you can afford a Meltagun and Flamer for the price of 1 Plasmagun.

Meltaguns will take out medium-heavy armor much better than a Plasmagun while the Flamer handles horde and light infantry very well. Between the two you have the extremes covered. This leaves the middle ground for the Plasmagun, namely heavy infantry/light vehicles and MCs.

 

So my question is this, is a Plasmaguns ability to kill these targets worth the higher price? Or does the overlapping between Flamer/Meltagun sufficiently cover the role of the Plasmagun, rendering it rather obsolete?

[Redbaron997]

Well I think it still has a place, but im not to keen on it. The main reason for this is that I cant charge afterwards, which as Chaos marines, is bad.

 

Another reason is the overheat, the chance that I could kill myself, in addition to losing my ability to charge and costing 5 points more than a Melta gun, is to much.

 

I think its good still, and a unit with 2 PG and a Havoc Launcher Rhino is a great objective holder, but I usually play more aggresive. So I think if you like playing a more gun-line or defensive chaos army, where the 24 inch shots will come into play, they will have alot more milliage.

 

So do they have a place? Yes. Do I use them? No, x2 Meltas or x2 Flamers or one of each is how I roll.

[commander alexander]

I dont play chaos but i have a rough idea of the fighting style. as redbaron said, 2 meltaguns or 2 flamers is great but i think they are more of a unit/armerment i would use to sweep vehicles and infantry away from objectives, therefore i think plasmaguns would have a place holding objectives especially if a unit of termies or something tried to take it. hope this helps ;)

[Askari]

Plasma guns are great for holding objectives and most importantly killing MC's. Their rapid fire and longer range than the melta makes them much better suited for taking out monstrous creatures than meltas.

 

Of course, they shouldn't be the staple special weapon of CSM's anymore. Melta and flamer squads are a much better all around setup and are significantly cheaper. Of course Plasma's also have the advantage of having the exact same range and rate of fire as bolters so you don't waste as much combat power.

[Koremu]

It's great for killing MCs, Artificer armour and Terminators. It's also a very good light vehicle killer (arguably better than a meltagun agaisnt some targets, due to the second shot).

[soshuro_tenchi]

Plasma guns are still on my army lists and I don't think I will remove them anytime soon. They are the best special weapon to hold objectives and to use a CSM squad to his full efficiency. But of course the main reason is the metagame aroud here, most people play MEQ (SM, CSM , SoB and Necrons are the most played army).

 

Of course you could always tailor your squads to shoot then assault with flamer and melta, but sometimes you are better to stay on your position and shoot em to hell and plasma is the best weapon for that.

[Tigrinus]

I play loyalists, and have found that the best place for PGs is in a Command Squad, where an Apothecary's FNP rule allows you to reroll failed saves that come about because of Gets Hot! A Command Squad with 4 PGs in a Rhino or Razorback is a fearsome unit!

 

Oh, and you rebel scum! ^_^

[minigun762]

Sounds like people (Chaos) like to use the Meltaguns and Flamers in their more aggressive units and leave the Plasmaguns to the objective campers.

I believe the exact same thing, so its nice to have company! :D

 

a unit with 2 PG and a Havoc Launcher Rhino is a great objective holder

Agreed. Loyalists can do the same with a Plasmagun/Heavy weapon and cheap Razorback. Both make for a tough little unit to camp an objective while still providing support to the rest of the army.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Plasma guns are still very useful, but you have to carefully consider where to take them

 

Chaos: Terminators with combi-plasma and Obliterators already supply excellent AP2 fire support, so on the Troop squads I would recommend 2 x meltagun+combi-flamer on Champion. You don't often get to fire the flamer, and it's usually just prior to an assault, or if you're preparing to take the charge of weaker infantry and you prefer to rapid-fire first (Chaos Marines function very much like Assault Marines who traded jump packs for boltguns, so I consider them more of an assault unit then an objective-holder). Against enemy armour, you do need the 2nd shot to guarantee a hit, and it's also good for knocking another wound off MC's/another model out of heavy infantry squads.

 

Loyalists: Biker Command squads can use them to great effect (due to Relentless and spamming), regular Bikers as well. Tactical squads get good usage out of a squad plasma gun as well, if you don't take a squad meltagun (again, combi-flamer on Sergeant lessens need for squad flamer). Sternguard already have Hellfire for big beasties and Avenger for MeQ's, so for the 3-4 combi-weapons you can afford (after paying for the near-mandatory powerfist on the Sergeant), I prefer combi-meltas to cover their anti-tank weakness.

 

Cover saves do screw up plasma gun fire, so I would generally not take it for static 'objective campers'. In that situation, a plasma cannon or a lascannon is a better buy (meanwhile, for the Combat squad in the Rhino, you may get close enough to deny cover to the plasma shots). The closer the better; not only do you double your firepower at 12", you also have a greater chance of denying those ever-annoying cover saves.

[eyescrossed]

I play loyalists, and have found that the best place for PGs is in a Command Squad, where an Apothecary's FNP rule allows you to reroll failed saves that come about because of Gets Hot! A Command Squad with 4 PGs in a Rhino or Razorback is a fearsome unit!

 

Oh, and you rebel scum! :(

I do the same thing, but with Plague Marines.

I love FNP...

[eyescrossed]

Double friggin' post.

[Kelanen]

I play loyalists, and have found that the best place for PGs is in a Command Squad, where an Apothecary's FNP rule allows you to reroll failed saves that come about because of Gets Hot! A Command Squad with 4 PGs in a Rhino or Razorback is a fearsome unit!

 

Oh, and you rebel scum! :D

I do the same thing, but with Plague Marines.

I love FNP...

 

Uhh.. you realise you can't FNP Plasma?

[minigun762]

I play loyalists, and have found that the best place for PGs is in a Command Squad, where an Apothecary's FNP rule allows you to reroll failed saves that come about because of Gets Hot! A Command Squad with 4 PGs in a Rhino or Razorback is a fearsome unit!

 

Oh, and you rebel scum! :D

I do the same thing, but with Plague Marines.

I love FNP...

 

Uhh.. you realise you can't FNP Plasma?

 

Not the plasma shot, but the "Gets Hot" save you can, because it allows for an armor save.

In essence it means that a 3+ armor save + FnP = 2+ armor save (or failing 17% of the time only)

[Kelanen]

I do the same thing, but with Plague Marines.

I love FNP...

 

Uhh.. you realise you can't FNP Plasma?

 

Not the plasma shot, but the "Gets Hot" save you can, because it allows for an armor save.

In essence it means that a 3+ armor save + FnP = 2+ armor save (or failing 17% of the time only)

 

Yes - I am talking about the Get's Hot saves.

 

I believe this is wrong - I've certainly seen it ruled otherwise elsewhere online, and ruled that way in GW shops too (which admittedly doesn't mean a lot).

 

...cannot be used against wounds from weapons that

inflict instant death (by having a high enough Strength

or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an

eternal warrior). Neither can it be used against wounds

from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any

other wound against which no armour save can ever be

taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close

combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils

of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc).

 

Yes, you get a save vs Gets Hot, but it doesn't change the fact that Plasma still falls under the above categorisation which obviates FNP.

 

If you want to pull the text apart, it always applies to AP1/2, etc and wounds which give no armour save - not because they give no armour save. The fact you are getting an armour save in this instance doesn't change the fact that it's still an AP2 weapon, which FNP specifically doesn't protect against.

[Kelanen]

Note that FNP got it's text changed in 5th Ed to include the AP1/2 clause. It worked in 4th.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

@ Kelanen: I don't think you understand how 'Gets Hot!' works;

 

'Get's Hot: ....For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound (normal saves apply)...'

 

pg. 31, BRB

 

It's that simple. When firing any weapon (plasma, Avenger rounds etc) with the 'Gets Hot' rule, rolling a '1' to hit will cause the firing model to take a wound. It doesn't matter what AP value the weapon has (you're not resolving a shot on the model from an enemy weapon), you just take the wound then roll to save like normal.

 

FNP cannot be taken against AP2/1 weapons, this is true.

However, 'Gets Hot!' clearly just auto-wounds, it has no AP value assigned to it. Thus, if you're allowed your normal armour save, you can use FNP against any wounds suffered from 'Gets Hot' results.

[eyescrossed]

Yes, you can use FNP against Gets Hot! wounds.

[Brother Swift]

i really think that the only reason anything plasma is still useful for anything is because you get a template after your blast and also the low AP could punch a nice hole in a tank or skimmer or walker. But other than that i really like sticking with my meltas and lascannons and RL's

[eyescrossed]

B) Only plasma cannons have blast.

[minigun762]

The one thing that stops me from replacing Plasmaguns entirely is there is no real better ranged weapon against most MCs. Able to wound on 3's most of the time and punch through all their armor saves. Most importantly, it gets 2 shots up close and with enough of them, you can take out a Carnifex/Greater Daemon/Wraithlord in one round of killing.

 

Other than the Power Fist, what else handles MCs so well? Meltaguns do well, usually wounding on 2's but you have half the range and half the shots.

[Maddog176]

Umm inless i am mistaken, doesn't a plasma gun usually wound on a 2+. Espically against MEQ where it will allways wound on a 2+. The only things it can't wound on a 2+ would be anything with t6 or more i think.

[eyescrossed]

He was referring to shooting them at Monstous Creatures.

[minigun762]

He was referring to shooting them at Monstous Creatures.

 

yeah exactly, most MCs are T6 so thats a 3+. Even the worst case scenario, a Wraithlord is a 5+ and with 2 shots, thats about a 50/50 chance to wound.