How organised are the Black Legion?

[nlead]

Hi all,

 

I have been working on my Chaos force for some time now and have about 10k currently consisting of Death Guard, World Eaters and Black Legion.

 

My original idea for this was to create 3 independant armies (3.5K each) which could be combined to be used as a Black Crusade force for mega apoc games.

 

I now want to expand my Black Legion beyond this point limit (3.5K). My idea was to create the entire Black Legion 1st company (loads of termis and vets!! Mmmm!).

 

I just wanted you guys to confirm that the Black Legion still follow a legion stucture and not gone into factions like others. I have not read any of the Chaos related books which are out there except for the Horus Heresy stuff so i dont have much info on how the BL would function now. Any info you guys could give me regarding BL fluff and organisation details would be a great help! Also what books should i be reading to gain this info myself??

 

I obviously wont be building this to full Legion company strength (1000 marines) but to Chapter company strength (100 marines). This would represent the losses the BL have had over the millenia and save me time, paint and money!!!!

 

Thanks in advance guys! ;)

 

Nlead

[Ashur]

They do keep their organisation and even recruit from other legions.

[Magnus Thane]

Well though the BL has a lot of roaming warbands, fluff indicates that Abaddon can call upon full Compagnies of the Black Legion whenever he desires. Medusa V indicates this.

Furthermore the leading figures of the BL can still impose discipline, order and organisation.

Also their numbers have risen greatly since their fall from grace.

It looks like you have 'real' Black Legionnaries and on top of that Cult Troops and the likes that went over.

But organisation and the like is certainly still present.

[Sception]

Note: the following is primarily my understandings and interpretations. They have been informed by GW fluff, but are not GW fluff in and of themselves.

 

First of all, did the Legions segregate their terminators and vets into a 'first company' to begin with? Were they seperated into companies at all? Remember that modern loyalist marine organization, in its entirety, is a product of a Codex structure designed in large part to put checks and balances on the military power of space marines, and the Primarchs which led them. During the legions era, that codex didn't exist, and everything about Legion organization was designed to maximize the military power of space marines without balance or limit. Legions didn't consist of 1,000 marines, but 10,000 or more. They weren't split into strict groups of 100 with predefined tactical roles, they were divided and organized as their Primarchs saw fit. So you can't really look at loyalist marine organization and make any assumptions about what Marine Legion organization was like.

 

 

Next, the Heresy happened 10,000 years before the current 40k setting. To make a real world comparison, that's about 2,000 years longer then Recorded History as we know it. The traitor Legions have spent this entire time at war. War with each other, war with the demonic legions, war with the Imperium, War with every alien species near the eye. Most of the original chaos legionairs are dead. Those that survive are powerful veterans, if not lords or daemon princes in their own right. The foot-slogging troopers of the chaos legions consist of more recent traitor marines, mutant hordes, feral chaos warriors, traitor guard, and newly uplifted chaos marines (made either through Bile's methods or from geneseed stolen from loyalist marines) created from feral warriors.

 

The organization of the Traitor Legions, all of them, has been warped by the forces of chaos that rule their lives. Chaos Marines vie for personal Glory. Glory is only achieved through victory, victory only through power. With more glory comes more power. Success attracts followers who want to share in the glory, while failure earns a death from many sources. This is all inherent in the system of rewards the chaos gods offer. Immortality for Glory, death and spawndom for anything less.

 

 

This inherently creates a pyramid structure, where independant warband leaders attatch themselves to powerful warlords, earn a few victories, are granted more powers, attract more followers, and earn greater victories, eventually rising to become warlords in their own right.

 

The modern Legions are not so much regimented, highly structured military organizations as they are the biggest, most powerful warbands, following the biggest, most powerful warlords, with a large number of lesser warlords of similar disposition sworn to their banners. Depending on the Legion in question, most of those Warlords are ancient warriors who were parts of the original Legions, but that isn't always the case. Some of the Legions may have more then one 'head', if the Legion has been split and reforged multiple times. For instance, there is some debate regarding how closely tied Typhus is to Mortarion. Typhus is very active around the Eye, and has been for some time, while Mortarion seem content to lord over his daemon world, and engage in unknowable daemonic politics. Is Typhus Mortarion's arm outside the eye, or does Typhus, and the lords sworn to him, represent a splitting of the Death Guard legion, a movement of the more active elements away from Mortarion's more sedentary rule?

 

Likewise, Several powerful Thousand Sons sorerer lords, and the sorcerers who served under them, were banished following the Rubrik of Ahriman. Do these sorcerer's act independantly? Do they still serve Ahriman in secret? Do they all, Ahriman included, still serve Magnus? Do they even know? Still, there is no question that they, along with Magnus' more loyal servants on the Planet of Sorcerers, are all still members of the 'Thousand Sons' Legion, even if that name can't exactly be put to a single organizational body.

 

 

 

The Black Legion represent a special case, even amongst the rest. Abaddon didn't just re-name the Sons of Horus, he forged an entirely new legion from its remains. While the core of the Black Legion - Abaddon, his personal terminator bodyguard, and the most trusted warlords within his council, are all generally original Sons of Horus, many of the soldiers that march under Black Legion colors, and indeed many of the Legion's warlords, are not. The Black Legion has absorbed warbands that have broken off of other Legions that shattered at one point or another (Emperor's Children and World Eaters come immediately to mind). They are the most active legion in creating and recruiting new chaos marines. They have almost assuredly absorbed some of the banished Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons (though whether they are truely loyal to the Despoiler or are simply spies seeking to influence his movements are questions perhaps only Tzeentch knows the answer to). Members of all the original chaos legions have marched under the Black Legion's flag, whether temporarily, as allies in one of the Despoiler's Black Crusade, or more permanently, as warbands adopted into the fold.

 

 

Legion 'Companies', if they can be called that, consist of whatever military forces an individual warlord can martial through their own personal power, influence, and intimidation. They are all, as such, highly individualized. Further, where the other Legion Heads generally require their warlords to share a similar outlook, philosophy, and prefered style of warfare, the Black Legion accepts all kinds, and encourages its warlords to follow their inclinations towards a diverse range of specialties. Abaddon doesn't care how his warlords achieve victory, so long as they do, and having a range of warlords with a variety of specialized forces gives the Warlord a wide selection of tools to choose from when deciding how to pursue his goals.

 

At any given time there are Black Legion companies, or warbands, deadicated to each of the Chaos Gods, as well as companies dedicated to none or all or any of them in combination. There are Black Legion warlords who favor heavy artillery, mechanized infantry, or static firepower. Warlords who focus on fleet combat and Warlords who like to have their boots on the ground. In general, the Black Legion favors close range firefights and melee combat, uses daemons as expendible shock troops, fights in short sharp pushes that alternate shocking assaults and periods of consolidation, and uses teleportation assaults to target and remove enemy command elements. The Legion generally favors this style of combat because it is the style favored by their Warmaster, and because it can be devastatingly effective given the amount of resources available to the largest Chaos Legion. However, it is in no way a codified structure that Black Legion warlords are required or even expected to follow.

 

 

Altogether, the Black Legion 'first company' would not be a rigid set of exactly 100 terminators and veterans. Rather, it would be the personal warband of Abaddon the Despoiler. In practice, it would fit the following characteristics:

 

A) It would be large. Very large.

 

B) It would be Led by Abaddon the Despoiler, and would likely include other lesser lords as captains.

 

C) It would have a very large number of terminators, of varrying equipment, that would generally deep strike along with their lord to take out enemy commanders.

 

D) It would employ daemons as expendible shock troops, and Possessed as somewhat less expendible shock troops.

 

E) It would have large number of basic chaos marines, all with well equipped champions.

 

F) It would feature a number of defilers, which were developed for the Black Legion and specifically fit the Despoiler's prefered campaign style (short, brutal assaults to capture ground, followed by periods of consolidation and heavy bombardment).

 

G) It would include whatever Cult Units the Warlord fealt appropriate, likely the retinues of favored leutennants dedicated to a particular God.

 

 

 

Look in the Apocalypse Reloaded book for a formation which, while really quite terrible in actual gameplay, does give even more background to the Defiler's personal army and the roles of his most trusted Warlords.

[nlead]

Thanks all,

 

This info helps me alot.

 

Speacial thanks to malisteen. :P Wow thats a lot of info, much appreciated! I agree with many of your ideas on what a Black Legion 1st company might look like, elite, natsy and HUGE!! I'm glad you had similar ideas on this. I've been chucking some ideas around in my head as to how the 1st Legion would look today and from your veiws (hopefully influenced by many chaos related fluff you've read) i've not been to far out. I really need some fluff to read on this!!! I'm hungry for info!

 

If anyone has anymore info or comments on any of the previous posts please keep it coming. I want this thread to become a haven for Chaos Legion structure info(not necessarily just the Black Legion). There doesnt seem to be much info about regarding the current structure of the Legions. Why is that?? We hear loads about the warbands but thats small time. We need legions!! So please share all your knowledge on this and lets try and get a grip on how the mighty legions function today.

 

Also please advise on any books i can read relating to the Chaos Legions and how they might function.

 

Thanks again,

 

nlead

[mightygoose]

heh i have been contemplating the very same thing in my own thread, being an IW player i always imagined our legion to be the among the most organised legions, if not the most united... there is evidence to suggest that our primarch still runs the show and that we can organise forces for single engagements that are larger than entire chapters of space marines... (storm of Iron)....

 

at the end of the day, even the chaos gods understand the need for communications and logistics...

[nlead]

heh i have been contemplating the very same thing in my own thread, being an IW player i always imagined our legion to be the among the most organised legions, if not the most united... there is evidence to suggest that our primarch still runs the show and that we can organise forces for single engagements that are larger than entire chapters of space marines... (storm of Iron)....

 

at the end of the day, even the chaos gods understand the need for communications and logistics...

 

 

Hi mightygoose,

 

I went into your thread just after posting my last update and realised you where after a similar thing. Maybe we should join forces, i feel a crusade coming on!! :P

 

I'm glad to find i'm not alone in wanting to know more about the legions and how they function today.

 

I get a bit sick of Chaos being soley portrayed as un-organised, crazed warbands. :P And as you have said i'm sure the Chaos Gods themselves have enough brains to realise they are not going to get anywhere without a bit of organisation in thier forces! There are still primarchs out there such as Mortarian, Pertuabo, Angron and Magnus leading thier legions. Why would these not keep Legion structure and instill disipline? Are we to belive that these primarchs just lost intrest in thier legions afer the Heresy just let disipline slip and allowed the legion to split into crazy warbands? I dont think so! I see no reason why they would in effect surrender the power of thier legion for no real reason without being challenged. And who would dare challenege their primarch (or abaddon for that matter)?

 

What i can fully support is that the legions wont just look like a huge chapter following codex rules. I'm sure each company will look entirly different from what we know a current loyalist company looks like. Which is why i was wondering about the make up of the Black Legion 1st before i continue with the project. I now belive it would probably just consist of the units that Abbadon favored. Not simply resticted to vets and termis. I'm now think the BL 1st would probably be very CC\Assualt orientated as from what i have read seems to be the way abaddon likes to fight.

 

nlead

[Sception]

If any Legion maintains something approaching their pre-heresy organization, it's the Iron Warriors. I don't remember any particular fluff regarding internal splits, or serious rivals for the Primarch's rule, or the like. A couple battles between rival lords, but not much else.

 

They are still divided into 'Grand Companies', as per their primarch's wishes.

 

 

Even so, I suspect they still basically follow the Warlord model. The lords reward successful warriors with sub-command positions, and Peturabo rewards successful sub-commander's with commands of their own. That internal wars have broken out between commander's shows that it isn't quite so regimented as one might think, and such internal rivalries serve to 'weed out the week' in the Iron Warriors, just as they do in other more or less intact Legions. And I doubt the Grand Companies are all identically organized and equipped. Even if Peturabo does have some of the best daemonic foundries, they aren't known for producing the most consistent set of equipment, certainly not the consistancy required to maintain dozens of identically armed and opperating Grand Companies. More likely the Warlords are responsible at least in part for the organization and equipment of their forces.

 

Of course, we're well over the line into speculation on my part.

[Sception]

I get a bit sick of Chaos being soley portrayed as un-organised, crazed warbands. :)

 

Who said anything about unorganized or crazed? A warband structure can be quite organized - everyone knows who their boss is. The trooper's boss is the champion, the champion's boss is the leutennant, the leutennant's boss is the warlord, and the warlord's boss is the Legion lord. Individual Warlords are responsible for procuring arms and troops- they need to be. They don't have an Imperium to supply them. Putting that responsibility on the Warlords is the most efficient way to do it, and it will inevitably result in forces tailored to the preferences of their individual commander. Not only that, but more successful warlords will inevitably end up with more and better equipment and more and better troops, until such time as their host grows too large for them to manage and splits (or until their warlord dies, or until their warlord ascends to daemonhood and abandons them in favor of immortal politics and campaigns, or so on).

 

It simply seems to be a structure inherent in the circumstances of the Chaos Legions. But it's only disorganized and crazed if these warlords spend all their time fighting each other instead of outside enemies. And they do seem to spend a lot of time doing that, but they also get together for big, united assaults, and most warlords within the eye to swear themselves and their forces to one legion or another.

 

And as you have said i'm sure the Chaos Gods themselves have enough brains to realise they are not going to get anywhere without a bit of organisation in thier forces! There are still primarchs out there such as Mortarian, Pertuabo, Angron and Magnus leading thier legions. Why would these not keep Legion structure and instill disipline? Are we to belive that these primarchs just lost intrest in thier legions afer the Heresy just let disipline slip and allowed the legion to split into crazy warbands? I dont think so! I see no reason why they would in effect surrender the power of thier legion for no real reason without being challenged. And who would dare challenege their primarch (or abaddon for that matter)?

 

The chaos gods are infinite, inhuman, and unknowable. They hate the Imperium. They hate each other. They hate the physical realm. I doubt they care much for the finer details of the organization of their mortal servants. The remaining Daemon Primarchs, with the possible exception of Petuabo, don't seem to be that concerned with organizing and leading their Legions against the imperium. Angron seems to have abandoned his mortal followers in favor of daemonic hosts. Mortarion and Magnus seem content to concern themselves with the running of their daemon worlds, and there is an open question as to whether the most active elements of their legions, specifically the forces who follow Typhus or Ahriman, directly answer to them.

 

Of the Legions, only the Black Legion seems concerned with aggressive expansion, and the other more active legions (Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion in particular), seem more concerned with the spread of cults and other destabilizing efforts then on military actions of a Legion scale.

 

And even before the Heresy, Legion organization was whatever a given Primarch wanted it to be. While they may have originally possessed a predetermined organization, they were under constant expansion, with no maximum limit, and when their primarchs were discovered any preset organization template went right out the window.

 

What i can fully support is that the legions wont just look like a huge chapter following codex rules. I'm sure each company will look entirly different from what we know a current loyalist company looks like. Which is why i was wondering about the make up of the Black Legion 1st before i continue with the project. I now belive it would probably just consist of the units that Abbadon favored. Not simply resticted to vets and termis. I'm now think the BL 1st would probably be very CC\Assualt orientated as from what i have read seems to be the way abaddon likes to fight.

 

Not only will each company look entirely different from a loyalist company, it will also look quite different from other chaos companies. Remember that the Legions don't have a codex telling them how to organize, an Inquisition enforcing that organization, or a system of forge worlds supplying them all with exactly the same equipment, and making sure that all of that equipment stays exactly up to date.

 

As for the Despoiler's warhost, you're basically right. I'm not sure of the particulars of the Black Legion company naming scheme. They probably still use the term 'grand companies'. I'm not sure if Abaddon rules the first directly, or if his personal host is called by another name. Whatever host he does directly rule would follow his general preferences though:

 

-Focus on assault and close range, with some long range support.

 

-Largely undivided, but with cult units appropriate to a given mission.

 

-Deep Striking terminators as a 'speartip' to take out the enemy command structure, sowing confusion before the main assault hits (Abaddon particularly favors this tactic, and has a particularly large and vicious force of terminators with which to practice it - think max sized unit of terminators with ceveral champions and maybe even some additional attatched characters)

 

-Summoned Daemons as expendible shock troops

 

-Use of possessed- general Legion preference

 

-Use of sorcerers- they manage and oversee the legion's possessed

 

-Use of Defilers- commissioned especially by the Despoiler, they support his prefered combat style)

 

-Use of Basic Chaos Space Marines- the legion is the most active in terms of recruitment and creation of new chaos marines.

[Magnus Thane]

Chaos bar certain types of 'subfactions' will inevitably be organised.

 

Are mercenary compagnies desorganised? Doubtful.

Heck the past of human history has shown that veteran pillagers, mercenary groups etc in a lot of timeframes were among the most disciplined and hierarchic groups on the field.

 

The same goes for Chaos.

 

BUT...

 

The WAY the Legions, Legion Warbands and Warbands are organised can heavily change to personal preference.

If anything Chaos seems quite adaptable compared to the more rigid but consistent Space Marine Chapters.

 

Factions like the Black Legion, Iron Warriors and Wordbearers have been stated implictly (even explicitly?) as being quite organised. With good hierarchy, their own compagnies etc. Granted the size of these compagnies will vary but in practice Space Marine Compagnies will vary a lot too in size. When one looks at the mighty Roman Legions, veteran legions were more often than not heavily undermanned due to campaigning.

 

Putting a Legion next to a Chapter is also quite silly and a bad idea. After all they are far larger, active etc.

The fact warbands/units/etc will be sent of, are added in etc means the operational status varies.

 

Most likely a Legion usually has leading figures which impose certain doctrines which become widespread. Under them are forces gathered which in turn are divided into small sections. Depending on the need, forces will be gathered and sent of.

On top of that Legions probably have only 'semi-affiliated' or 'allied' factions.

 

And than there are the more piratical/barbaric orientated minifactions. The typical warbands of your own design. Which can be as organised or desorganised as one wishes.

 

 

As usual Malisteen is quite correct in his assessements. Though of course one can argue details. Just because a lot of fluff is nonexistant/open to debate.

 

BL seems highly likely to have a lot of Defilers (made originally under the influence of good old Abby), Possessed (BL knows how to possess and deposses making it most handy), lots of basic Black Legionnaries.

Terminators are probably strongly present due to the BL and especially Abby's favoured tactic of cutting of the head with a deepstrike.

BL also knows how to lobotomize and hence make Berserkers. They're nr2 next to the World Eater (and derivates) in producing them.

 

Daemons of all kinds will be plenty. Due to Abby's position as Chosen of Chaos and he has access to some very good Sorcerors.

 

Cult Troop wise some may fall to a particular God and stray groups frequently defect to him. Both entire warbands and smaller units. Chaos and loyalist (though FAR less of course) alike may end up in his ranks.

 

Obliterators are certainly present too, due to them going where technology and rewards are plenty. Given Abby's power and influence, it is only normal he'll draw in quite a lot of Obliterator Cult members.

 

Basically BL excells in nothing but has access to pretty much everything. Frequently this comes down to people just slamming together stuff to make a very tough list which is theoretically fluffy.

Frankly i prefer a Black Legion player who makes a warband where the Lord actualyl focusses on some aspects. As the leaders in the BL will undoubtably have a past, specialties, preferences etc.

 

My force for instance is growing more and more towards Chaos Terminators and mechanized (all mounted in Rhino's) CSM's, supported by diverse vehicles. I plan to add 1 or 2 Defilers due to fluffyness.

 

Basically specialize. But try to somewhat hint at the BL colorscheme even on Cult Troops if you want some uniformity.

Say your Lord is an expert in Close Range? Well finetune his CSM's and/or give him berserkers?

Perhaps his lieutenant is a former Thousand Sons Sorceror who has allied with Abbadon out of ambition? Add in a squad or 2 of Thousand Sons (with matching Rhinos)

Focus your force on 2 themes or 3. It adds flavor to it all.

[Roultox]

Well, Abbadon commissioned the Defiler, an abundance of those for apocalypse is certainly a plus either way you take it.

 

You can pack some Nurgle Baneblades (Forgot its name) and Khorne Brass Scorpions as a bonus to those defilers as well, if you want a full compliment of big things to walk in front of your marines.

 

If this was in the apocalypse section you could get better feedback on the expantion.

[nlead]

Thanks to malisteen and magnus thane. Theres some great info there from you both!!

 

I will defo be including some berserkers and possibly some noise marines and rubic marines. I was hoping to try and keep the Black Legion as unmarked and khorne units to fit with the close combat theme but after reading your posts i am now considering mixing in other cult units.

 

Magnus thane - all my units, be they berserkers noise marines or unmarked will be painted in full base Black Legion colours. I just prefer the overall look of an army painted using on common colour scheme with slight variations here and there. I may do the odd model with a single shoulder pad of there original legion and i may put an extra splash of colour on my noise marines(slanesh will like that!).

 

Would a marine who has defected from his original legion to the Black Legion not paint his armour to match the BL anyway? Why would he continue to wear the full colours of his old legion??

 

Maybe i was a bit hasty in saying chaos was un-organised and crazy. This opinion may have been influenced by the new codex and my lack of fluff knowledge. But this is what i was after proof that Chaos are NOT just crazy un-organised thugs!

 

Roultox- Have no fear there will be defilers a-plenty CC and ranged. But brass Scorpians, i hadnt even thought of that! Now where did i see that tutorial.............

 

thanks all and please keep it coming!

 

nlead

[mightygoose]

sidetracking slightly.... nlead + other you are more than welcome to join in the IW organisational quest in my thread, but as a slight note... my take on warband organisation in the IW was the following, warbands are allowed to operate independently but when the Grand Company calls they assemble along with new recruits and reserves to complete the organisation before embarking on a major offensive, the grand companies are obviously all different in size and composition, the 14th is particularly large due to the geneseed left lying around on medrengard... i plan to write up a list for the 13th (the other post heresy GC(in my fluff anyway)) and when i get my replacement copy of storm of iron i will attempt to write up the Grand Company on hydra cordatus... my take on that is it was a 3 company GC with much larger individual companies, whereas the 14th is made up from more numerous smaller elements....

 

as to the BL we can assume they have more grand companies than any other legion, perhaps in the order of 40-50 GC of 500-1500 marine size.... Black legion rarely seem to operate in warband (40-400) formations, so i would assume that the majority have been inducted into various grand companies...

 

as to the forges of Medrengard, all the large artillery pieces made there i envisage as one off pieces, hence they all have names... although some of the baneblade sized equivalents may be made in multiples...

 

an interesting thought is where are defilers made, do the IW do them on commission, having the best facilities for it, or do the BL have their own small scale forge operations...???

[Magnus Thane]

Thanks to malisteen and magnus thane. Theres some great info there from you both!!

 

I will defo be including some berserkers and possibly some noise marines and rubic marines. I was hoping to try and keep the Black Legion as unmarked and khorne units to fit with the close combat theme but after reading your posts i am now considering mixing in other cult units.

 

Magnus thane - all my units, be they berserkers noise marines or unmarked will be painted in full base Black Legion colours. I just prefer the overall look of an army painted using on common colour scheme with slight variations here and there. I may do the odd model with a single shoulder pad of there original legion and i may put an extra splash of colour on my noise marines(slanesh will like that!).

 

Would a marine who has defected from his original legion to the Black Legion not paint his armour to match the BL anyway? Why would he continue to wear the full colours of his old legion??

 

Maybe i was a bit hasty in saying chaos was un-organised and crazy. This opinion may have been influenced by the new codex and my lack of fluff knowledge. But this is what i was after proof that Chaos are NOT just crazy un-organised thugs!

 

Roultox- Have no fear there will be defilers a-plenty CC and ranged. But brass Scorpians, i hadnt even thought of that! Now where did i see that tutorial.............

 

thanks all and please keep it coming!

 

nlead

 

 

Well paintingwise, there are a few methods:

1) Allied -> pure Legion or Warband colors (Say World Eaters, Iron Warriorsn The Purged,...)

2) Some have a combo. Say Berserkers with parts or the majority red but their insignia and some bits in BL colors.

3) Fully modified.

 

For Cult Troops i usually prefer nr2 as in some pics as it makes them better distinguishable by the opponent and yourself.

But minimally give them a BL emblem with a black and gold shoulderpad. In any case you seem to have the right approach.

Make sure you have a good core of basic BL CSM's. Somehow i always feel they add to underlining them being BL's.

 

For Apocalypse games you can field some more Cult units definitely.

Thousand Sons are quite cool with a BL Colorscheme edge, i saw some of those in the codex (or online?)

I don't have Berserkers but they are among the most likely Cult troops around in the BL legion and they're very good, i'm sure.

In Apocalypse, a trio of Defilers must be a sight to see!

 

Mightygoose is quite correct.

 

As for Abby, he is usually depicted as supporting a major operation he approves of by sending one or more Compagnies or asking them for major projects.

Don't forget that although the BL have had and have worlds, they are very fleet orientated.

I presume that is still the case though it is hard to determine who has what in WH40K.

[nlead]

sidetracking slightly.... nlead + other you are more than welcome to join in the IW organisational quest in my thread, but as a slight note... my take on warband organisation in the IW was the following, warbands are allowed to operate independently but when the Grand Company calls they assemble along with new recruits and reserves to complete the organisation before embarking on a major offensive, the grand companies are obviously all different in size and composition, the 14th is particularly large due to the geneseed left lying around on medrengard... i plan to write up a list for the 13th (the other post heresy GC(in my fluff anyway)) and when i get my replacement copy of storm of iron i will attempt to write up the Grand Company on hydra cordatus... my take on that is it was a 3 company GC with much larger individual companies, whereas the 14th is made up from more numerous smaller elements....

 

as to the BL we can assume they have more grand companies than any other legion, perhaps in the order of 40-50 GC of 500-1500 marine size.... Black legion rarely seem to operate in warband (40-400) formations, so i would assume that the majority have been inducted into various grand companies...

 

as to the forges of Medrengard, all the large artillery pieces made there i envisage as one off pieces, hence they all have names... although some of the baneblade sized equivalents may be made in multiples...

 

an interesting thought is where are defilers made, do the IW do them on commission, having the best facilities for it, or do the BL have their own small scale forge operations...???

 

 

Thanks mightygoose, I really like your take on how the warbands would function. It seems to make a lot of sense. Indvidual lords/luitenants take there warbands on missions of there own choosing but when the man at the top shouts they all come running back for the big fight.

 

I jump over to your thread and see what i can contribute. Your making me think about doing a squad of IW now!

 

You also raise a good question about where defilers are made. My take on this was that the BL created them in there own forges as they where commisioned by abby for the BL. I used to wonder weather the other legions could only get defilers as a prize from abby. For example the Death Guard help old Abby and the BL out in a paticually difficult mission. As a 'thankyou' (and because he feels sorry for the DG with all there rusting old vehicles) abby would gift them a defiler. Nice! I had never really thought they they could be being forged by other legions but i suppose having the IW do this would make sense due to there knowledge in this area and there abundance of forges.

 

 

Magnus thane - thanks for the painting advice. I will more than likely go with your second option. But with the majority of the colour on the model being BL.

 

I was already planning on at least 3 defilers and mightygoose got me thinking about brass scorpians which brings me to this............. :jaw:

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/brassscorp.htm

 

I will be getting at least 1 of these NEW FORGEWORLD BRASS SCORPIANS!!!! Have you guys seen these, its AMAZING!!

 

I think a couple of these along with a trio of defilers would be brilliant to see and would fit the BL perfectly! It seems as if Forgeworld knew i was starting this project. How i love Forgeworld, they may be pricey but dam they make some good looking models!

 

You also mention that you belive that the BL are mainly fleet based. How large would you envisage this fleet being? Would you have any info on ship names and classes which are assiosiated with the BL? Do you think that the majority of of the BLs fighting strength would reside on these ships when not fighting or on or would they just chill out on the daemon worlds?

 

nlead

[nuclear.anxiety]

Brilliant! I'm putting my BL together with the idea that the basic marine haven't witnessed the heresy- i have space marines and their bitz lying around the place, but my champions are all chaos.

 

While initially i might've thought it a touch cheeky to borrow cult troops from all over, i think having a few choice units lying in wait for those players that push a little to hard, and not to mention the painting variates etc etc could be interesting/fun.

 

And, in regards to unorganization- (potential) old school space marine training under the thumb of the Emperor, followed by 10,000years of perfecting the art of war may make it look unorganized, but they'd be so well versed- everything would be second nature.

[nuclear.anxiety]

Oh yeah- just saw the brass scorpions :jaw: :jaw: I want one now!

[Magnus Thane]

Yeah it looks great.

What rules does it use?

[mightygoose]

Iron Warriors Blah Blah defiler Blah

 

Thanks mightygoose, I really like your take on how the warbands would function. It seems to make a lot of sense. Indvidual lords/luitenants take there warbands on missions of there own choosing but when the man at the top shouts they all come running back for the big fight.

 

I jump over to your thread and see what i can contribute. Your making me think about doing a squad of IW now!

 

You also raise a good question about where defilers are made. My take on this was that the BL created them in there own forges as they where commisioned by abby for the BL. I used to wonder weather the other legions could only get defilers as a prize from abby. For example the Death Guard help old Abby and the BL out in a paticually difficult mission. As a 'thankyou' (and because he feels sorry for the DG with all there rusting old vehicles) abby would gift them a defiler. Nice! I had never really thought they they could be being forged by other legions but i suppose having the IW do this would make sense due to there knowledge in this area and there abundance of forges.

 

 

I use it to explain why some squads have apparently different themes, like some have an abundance of furs (cohort of the iron beast) and some have lots of eldar heads on spikes.... etc, also allows for your aspiring champions to have stories... that warband grand company idea is ultraflexible too. less organised legions, ie wolrd eaters, have warbands that form into loose temporary grand companies when necessary whereas more organised legions like BL WB and IW i envisage assigning specific warbands to set grand company structures, with a network of various traitors working as spies at remote space stations acting like a bulletin board for Chaos, a warband turns up and sees if it has any standing orders to rendevouz with the grand company and go to war, checking in whenever they can.... maybe the bulletin stations are all run by alpha legion agents lol....

[TheDarkApostle]

To answer some of the questions asked in here:

 

The Defiler, as far as I know was commissioned by Abbadon yes. The ones who were tasked with building it however was not the Black Legion Tech-marines. And not the Iron Warriors either. It was the Dark Mechanicus, those of the Adeptus Mechanicus that sided with Horus at the time of the Heresy and then followed the "Traitor Legions" into the Eye.

 

Regarding the most organized Legion I'd actually give it to the Word Bearers. True it's a close call between them and the Alpha Legion but I'll still give it to the Word Bearers. The reason? No rogue elements. (At least not until the new 'dex and whatever his-name-was and his Host split away.)

 

It's true that the Iron Warriors are highly organized, but I'll still rate them lower on the ladder because of rogue elements and some of the infighting we have heard of (mainly Storm of Iron). Alpha Legion is just, well I don't know to be honest. :lol:

 

The Brass Scorpion will mostly likely use normal Defiler Rules as far as I am aware, with the exception of the Blood Scorpion Apocalypse Formation which I believe exists, since that's what everyone has been using them as so far.

 

Now I can't remember if there was anything else I had planned to say or not. :blush:

 

TDA

[mightygoose]

To answer some of the questions asked in here:

 

The Defiler, as far as I know was commissioned by Abbadon yes. The ones who were tasked with building it however was not the Black Legion Tech-marines. And not the Iron Warriors either. It was the Dark Mechanicus, those of the Adeptus Mechanicus that sided with Horus at the time of the Heresy and then followed the "Traitor Legions" into the Eye.

 

Organisation Blah.

 

TDA

 

So do the Dark Mechanicum exist as a separate entity within the eye, like the Admech's on mars, do they have their own homeworld, with forges etc or are they dispersed among the traitor legion worlds...

 

edit, surely the only logical conclusion is that they exist on their own world, otherwise if they were distributed among the traitor legions some of the traitor tech marines would then assuredly make it to the battlefield....

[TheDarkApostle]

So do the Dark Mechanicum exist as a separate entity within the eye, like the Admech's on mars, do they have their own homeworld, with forges etc or are they dispersed among the traitor legion worlds...

 

edit, surely the only logical conclusion is that they exist on their own world, otherwise if they were distributed among the traitor legions some of the traitor tech marines would then assuredly make it to the battlefield....

They are their own entity and have ownership over a few daemonic Forgeworlds of their own. They work like Bile as in whoever pays them get their services.

 

If I've understood it correctly that is. :blush:

 

TDA

[mightygoose]

 

Dark Mechanicum Blah

They are their own entity and have ownership over a few daemonic Forgeworlds of their own. They work like Bile as in whoever pays them get their services.

 

If I've understood it correctly that is. :blush:

 

TDA

 

I'm curious what sources did you pull this from, i'd like to have a read myself for future note and in the best interests of accurate fluff..

[TheDarkApostle]

 

Dark Mechanicum Blah

They are their own entity and have ownership over a few daemonic Forgeworlds of their own. They work like Bile as in whoever pays them get their services.

 

If I've understood it correctly that is. :mellow:

 

TDA

 

I'm curious what sources did you pull this from, i'd like to have a read myself for future note and in the best interests of accurate fluff..

Afraid I can't remember exactly where I read it. I've tried my best to locate the source but so far there's nothing. :huh:

 

TDA

[nlead]

Yeah it looks great.

What rules does it use?

 

I think it would use the rules from the Apoc book. Pg173. But i'm sure forgeworld will release new rules for it in the next IA book.

 

 

To answer some of the questions asked in here:

 

The Defiler, as far as I know was commissioned by Abbadon yes. The ones who were tasked with building it however was not the Black Legion Tech-marines. And not the Iron Warriors either. It was the Dark Mechanicus, those of the Adeptus Mechanicus that sided with Horus at the time of the Heresy and then followed the "Traitor Legions" into the Eye.

 

Can anyone else confim that it is the Dark Mechanicus who are building the defiler?? If so do people belive that the Dark Mechanicus in question are affiliated with any legions or opperate as there own entity? And if they do they build the Defiler do they build it just for the Despoiler or is it first come first servered?

 

nlead