How organised are the Black Legion?

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

According to the June 2003 issue of White Dwarf it was Salernia,a Tech-Marine in the service of the Luna Wolves, specialized in the design of Dreadnoughts, who was responsible for adapting the technology into the Defilers, at the behest of Abaddon.

 

 

Cheers!

[Magnus Thane]

Thanks for the info!

[mightygoose]

According to the June 2003 issue of White Dwarf it was Salernia,a Tech-Marine in the service of the Luna Wolves, specialized in the design of Dreadnoughts, who was responsible for adapting the technology into the Defilers, at the behest of Abaddon.

 

 

Cheers!

 

so does that mean defilers were invented when the luna wolves were still the lunar wolves, like before abaddon took command, because he renamed them black legion as his first action, but if he instructed them too.... damn inconsistencies.... Im betting after.... ie black legion days.... nice tip.... june 2003 is that UK & what issue is it?

[TheDarkApostle]

Regarding my earlier posts I think I might have been mixing up the fluff for the Defiler and the Soulgrinder.

 

TDA

[Jiri the Corrupted]

According to the June 2003 issue of White Dwarf it was Salernia,a Tech-Marine in the service of the Luna Wolves, specialized in the design of Dreadnoughts, who was responsible for adapting the technology into the Defilers, at the behest of Abaddon.

 

 

Cheers!

 

so does that mean defilers were invented when the luna wolves were still the lunar wolves, like before abaddon took command, because he renamed them black legion as his first action, but if he instructed them too.... damn inconsistencies.... Im betting after.... ie black legion days.... nice tip.... june 2003 is that UK & what issue is it?

The article in UK WD 282 was about the Defiler and contained some fluff about the Inq taking one apart to see where it came from. Apparently they found a mark that was matched to one from databanks as belonging to a Tech Marine that served with the Luna Wolves before the Heresy. But these are Imperial Records and would thus contain info about Imperial troops, not to mention they've got to be ancient too and they're not accurate on the disposition of Heresy-era Traitor Marines. The article also states that Salernia is the Despoilers "most favoured artificer" but it doesn't say he was the only one working on it.

Further complicating things is that the article clearly states that the Defiler was made from parts "from all manner of ages of the Imperium. Some portions of its body were dated from the dawn of the Imperium itself.". It is safe to say that the work of a Luna Wolves, and possible Black Legion, Tech Marine specialised in the construction of Dreadnoughts is incorperated in the Defiler. This doesn't mean Salernia made it himself though. An old dread could have been taken apart so that its parts could be used for a Defiler. Besides the Defiler was first fielded in the Assault on Bloden Keep in 357.M41 a long time after the Heresy.

 

TDA's assumption that the Dark Mechanicum builds Defilers could be quite right as they the leading experts in the field of Daemon Engines. It would make sense that they were at least consulted during the development of the Defiler.

 

Fun Fact: several loyalist Space Marines are sacrificed during the possession of the Defiler. It appears only a fresh Progenoid gland will draw forth a sufficiently vicious Daemon for Defiler-inhabitment! Isn't that a thought to warm the heart?

[Lay]

The unit entry in the CSM Codex states that the Dark Mechanicus is involved in the construction of Defilers.

[mightygoose]

Salernia Blah Luna Wolves Blah

 

Blah Which Issue Blah

The article in UK WD 282 was about the Defiler and contained some fluff about the Inq taking one apart to see where it came from. Apparently they found a mark that was matched to one from databanks as belonging to a Tech Marine that served with the Luna Wolves before the Heresy. But these are Imperial Records and would thus contain info about Imperial troops, not to mention they've got to be ancient too and they're not accurate on the disposition of Heresy-era Traitor Marines. The article also states that Salernia is the Despoilers "most favoured artificer" but it doesn't say he was the only one working on it.

Further complicating things is that the article clearly states that the Defiler was made from parts "from all manner of ages of the Imperium. Some portions of its body were dated from the dawn of the Imperium itself.". It is safe to say that the work of a Luna Wolves, and possible Black Legion, Tech Marine specialised in the construction of Dreadnoughts is incorperated in the Defiler. This doesn't mean Salernia made it himself though. An old dread could have been taken apart so that its parts could be used for a Defiler. Besides the Defiler was first fielded in the Assault on Bloden Keep in 357.M41 a long time after the Heresy.

 

TDA's assumption that the Dark Mechanicum builds Defilers could be quite right as they the leading experts in the field of Daemon Engines. It would make sense that they were at least consulted during the development of the Defiler.

 

Fun Fact: several loyalist Space Marines are sacrificed during the possession of the Defiler. It appears only a fresh Progenoid gland will draw forth a sufficiently vicious Daemon for Defiler-inhabitment! Isn't that a thought to warm the heart?

 

 

aah i have that issue, i had forgotten that article, my theory on the old parts is that maybe the daemonic possession leaves a taint on the metal, making elements appear the age of the daemon, hence a newbuild defiler with an ancient daemon would show up as millenia old under testing even if only possessed a few weeks prior.... sounds chaosy to me. thoughts?

 

anyway maybe this Salernia guy came up with the idea and suggested it to the dark mechanicus????

[TheDarkApostle]

aah i have that issue, i had forgotten that article, my theory on the old parts is that maybe the daemonic possession leaves a taint on the metal, making elements appear the age of the daemon, hence a newbuild defiler with an ancient daemon would show up as millenia old under testing even if only possessed a few weeks prior.... sounds chaosy to me. thoughts?

 

anyway maybe this Salernia guy came up with the idea and suggested it to the dark mechanicus????

I have a feeling this Salernia guy simply was there to make sure they were actually working as intended. As well as possibly acting as the Warmasters eyes and ears around the DM to snap up and possible information they could make use of. Doesn't sound too far fetched to me.

 

But yeah, regarding Daemons it is a well known fact that the Daemon who has possessed something do tend to warp it to fit it's own preferences.

 

TDA

[mightygoose]

Oh Yeah Blah, Warping Blah Blah Salernia Blah

I have a feeling this Salernia guy simply was there to make sure they were actually working as intended. As well as possibly acting as the Warmasters eyes and ears around the DM to snap up and possible information they could make use of. Doesn't sound too far fetched to me.

 

But yeah, regarding Daemons it is a well known fact that the Daemon who has possessed something do tend to warp it to fit it's own preferences.

 

TDA

 

fantastic a concensus has been reached it seems, quick Dark Apostle, to the fluffmobile....

[nlead]

aah i have that issue, i had forgotten that article, my theory on the old parts is that maybe the daemonic possession leaves a taint on the metal, making elements appear the age of the daemon, hence a newbuild defiler with an ancient daemon would show up as millenia old under testing even if only possessed a few weeks prior.... sounds chaosy to me. thoughts?

 

anyway maybe this Salernia guy came up with the idea and suggested it to the dark mechanicus????

I have a feeling this Salernia guy simply was there to make sure they were actually working as intended. As well as possibly acting as the Warmasters eyes and ears around the DM to snap up and possible information they could make use of. Doesn't sound too far fetched to me.

 

But yeah, regarding Daemons it is a well known fact that the Daemon who has possessed something do tend to warp it to fit it's own preferences.

 

TDA

 

Ok, Im back. Apologies that was a really busy week :) ! So, do we all agree that the Dark Mech build the Defiler under the supervision of Salernia of the Black Legion? Seems to make a great deal of sense to me.

 

What do people think about the idea i put forward regarding warbands and legions only getting defilers gifted from Abby? Or can anyone just put in an order with the Dark Mech for one? To me it seems if they where commisioned by\for the Black Legion then they would get some say on who got them. Opinions?

 

Ok, next question as i'm sat at my modelling desk surrounded by termi bitz :) . Abby would most surely have an honor guard who go with him at all times. How large do you see this unit being and how would they be armed? Any modelling ideas for this unit?

 

Thanks all,

 

nlead

[Sception]

Are we talking about a unit large enough to feel appropriate escorting Abby to a regular game of 40k, or a unit overblown enough to feel appropriate escorting Abby to a game of apocalypse?

 

If the former, I'd take at least six, with a handful of efficient upgrades and multiple champions.

 

If the latter, the minimum you'll want is 10 chaos terminators with multiple champions and an icon (probably tzeentch for the inv. save). You might consider instead a formation of multiple terminator squads deep striking together, and just attatch abby to the biggest of them.

 

My own Abby usually only sees play in APO games, and hangs out with the following:

 

10 Chaos Terminators, including:

- Aspiring Champion with pair claws

- Aspiring Champion with chain fist and combi melta

- Icon Bearer with icon of Tzeentch and combi melta

- 2x Reaper Autocannon

- 2x Combi Plasma & Power Fist

- 3x Combi Plasma

 

Sometimes the unit is also joined by:

- Chaos Lord in terminator armor with twin lightning Claws

- Chaos Sorcerer in terminator armor with Gift of Chaos

 

 

I've been considering adding either a couple more attached ICs to fit the 'Lords of the Black Crusade' formation or a couple wing units of 5 terminators each (possible attaching the other ICs to them) to fit the 'Annihilation Force' formation. My group tends not to play 'all reserve' apocalypse forces, so the Conclave isn't as necessary as it would be against, say, all flank march eldar, or all drop pod marines.

[nlead]

Thanks Malisteen,

 

This unit should be able to be fielded in normal 40k games of 2000pts plus, either as a bodyguard unit for Abaddon or my Lord. I was actually think of using 4 Termi Champs so when i add either Abby or my lord it makes a unit of 5. I cant really see Abby having a personal bodyguard in numbers greater than 4 or 5. Do you guys think this unit is large enough? Malisteen suggested 6 but that wont go in a LR. Sugegstions?

 

I have already started converting a Lysander model which i have had unopened in the blister for ages. So far he's been de-Fisted and lightning clawed up! Now, i have also ordered a Space Marine Termi Captin, a Termi Chaplin and the Forgeworld Cullen. My plan is that i can convert these models to be Chaos Termi Champs which should make for a really individual and smart looking unit which stands out for my other termi squads. I plan on leaving the Captin and Cullen with PWs but giving the Chaplin Model either a PF or a CF. I think this load out should be able to cope with most enemy HQ units, which would be there role. Also it fits in a Land Raider and isnt overly expensive. 180pts without Abby or the Lord.

 

Comments please then i can finalise this unit.

 

Cheers,

 

nlead

[Sception]

I usually deep strike abby, and thus want a unit big enough to take a couple wounds before assault, and equipped to have a significant short range shooty impact on the turn they arrive. In that kind of situation, six is probably the minimum I would run.

 

If you are driving him in a land raider, then of course you can't take more then four. Whether you make them all champions is another issue. 40 points is a lot to spend for 4 attacks, especially when you can get those same four attacks cheaper taking an icon of korne. Of course, if you're taking an icon and upgrading to champions that can still be tough... but then you're spending an aweful lot of points on very few guys.

 

Four champs with pair claws and an icon of slaanesh is, what, 220ish points? plus 220ish for the raider and 275ish for Abby and you're already looking at near 750 points, which is an aweful lot for a 2,000 point game, and the entire thing can be lost to a D template or (worse) vortex grenade in APO. If you lose the raider in either game you end up with a very slow, very vulnerable unit huffing it accross the board. If it does get through it can break the enemy's back, easily, but it's very much an 'all your eggs in one basket' kind of thing.

 

Six termies with the icon of Tzeentch, a heavy flamer, two combi meltaguns, three combi plasmaguns, and a single champ upgrade is 270ish points. Plus Abby is 550ish points, saving around 200 points compared to the 5 guys in a raider. This version has two more ablative wounds, all the models have a 4+ inv. save, they still have a significant melee impact, they arrive where you want them with enough firepower of a sufficient variety to put some serious hurt on whatever they land near, they don't have to hoof it accross the board, they're all but guaranteed at least one round of shooting (provided you spread enough icons out around your force), etc. Then again, they're less likely to hit melee unscathed, and a particularly mobile enemy can run away from them.

 

It's definitally a trade-off, but when you get down to it I normally prefer to deep strike terminators, rather then mount them in land raiders.

 

Of course, in regular games of 40k, I also prefer to avoid special characters, keep my terminators to minimum size, and have my army led by a more efficient/independant daemon prince. But that's just me.

[nlead]

I usually deep strike abby, and thus want a unit big enough to take a couple wounds before assault, and equipped to have a significant short range shooty impact on the turn they arrive. In that kind of situation, six is probably the minimum I would run.

 

If you are driving him in a land raider, then of course you can't take more then four. Whether you make them all champions is another issue. 40 points is a lot to spend for 4 attacks, especially when you can get those same four attacks cheaper taking an icon of korne. Of course, if you're taking an icon and upgrading to champions that can still be tough... but then you're spending an aweful lot of points on very few guys.

 

Apologies, i should have stated earlier that i always favor using LRs for Termi delivary. I like to know that my termis will get to where i need them to be. A LR gives me that. I've had problems with DS in the past with Termis not arriving where i want or never getting into the game at all. For such an expensive unit i want to know i will get to use them, plus i also get the fire support of the LR (which everyone overlooks) and can assualt in the same turn i arrive which removes the need for the extra 'wound' Termis.

 

I dont want to sound as if i'm dismissing what you've suggested, the advice is much appriciated! Its just i've tried it and it didnt work for me. Maybe if i had more icons.

 

Thanks for pointing out the MoK is cheaper than making them Champs. I cant beleive i didnt notice that! I'm now thinking of making them an uber unit and giving them the IoK too. That will make them 210pts for 4 Termis (LC,2PW,1PF) with 21 PW attacks on the charge without Abby or the Lord, 27+D6 attacks with Abby! I dont think this is too bad for a Terminator unit. I could drop the Champ status for smaller games which would make them 170pts.

 

I dont really mind this unit being to expensive as i probably wont field them that often as i have standard Termi squads too they'll be a bit of a treat :yes: .

 

Thanks,

 

nlead

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

In response to the topic :lol: -

 

The CSM codex describes the Black Legion as being a coalition built upon the remnants of the Sons of Horus legion. in my mind being described as a coalition means that it does not have the traditional legion structure, but is rather a coalition/group of Warbands under different leaders who have pledged allegience to the Despoiler.

 

These warbands go their own way the majority of the time, but during a Black Crusade or on any other occasion Abaddon needs them, they'll rally around him reforming a coalition. Thats how i see the Black Legion anyways ;)

[Brother Hadafix]

I can confirm that the BL still use Companies as a structure going from the 3.5ed C:CSM page 44. Also main from same page the BL fight using CC with long range back up tactically.

 

Cant find anything on the Dark Ad Mech other than a few lines in Dark Disciple near the end, and some in the Dark Apostle.

 

Hope some of this helps.

[Magnus Thane]

Medusa V fluff indicates Compagnies are still used.

Black Legion's core remaisn the Legion. Difference is they get masses of warbands to bulk out their troop potential.

In a way it has all a bit a 'feudal' or heterogenous edge but the spine of it all is the true Legion.

At least that's how i always envisioned it.