Dilgar Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Hi, A year back I started playing Wood Elves, been having a blast (both with my enemies and with the game ;) ) Now my friends tricked me into starting 40k (They told me I´m getting some DH for my birthday, since they knew I liked em and nobody plays em). Some of you may find my username familiar, I use the same at Asrai and while playing DoW :P . I´m From Finland, 23 years of age and studying political science at Helsinki University. Enough about useless information. So this is as far as I´ve come: I know my friends, those I usually play with and there army choice. They are Chaos marines, Necron, Tau and Eldar. They plan on playing 1k games to starters, they know a bit about the rules since they´ve been interested in 40k way longer then me but they haven´t bought alot of troops yet. We just ordered for ~340€ from Mealstorm :) . The Chaos will have something like this: 8 CSM 10CSM 2x Oblitoraters Rhino Lord with PA 8 Khorne berserks +maybe something else The necron: Monolith (yeah I know will be trouble) 3 Destroyers 2 lords with some orb ~20 Warriors +maybe something else Tau will have: 30 FW Devilfish 3 Crysis suits 8-12 kroots +commander? No idea what the eldar has, haven´t talked with him about it =) So I will get 5 Terminator Grey Knights + Brother Captain, a Dreadnought and a Inqvisitor + retinue(maybe that Cortex guy but he can be played as a no-special character, right? I bought the codex, and two squads of 5 regular GKs. So I got 5 TGK+BC, 10GK(two with incinerators as they come so in the box), a Dreadnought and the inqvisitor with retinue. I calculated very roughly that it would make an 750pts army. Am I right? Do I even stand a chance with this build at 750points? (no power gaming amongst my group, if not agreed upon first ;) Then some more questions: Can I use a regular GK as those purgation squads? Is it really that bad a idea to use smaller GK squads then 8? (been lurking around here) Isn´t it a pure DH army if I use maybe a vindicare assasin/death cult ass/inqvisitor lord? What more do I need? - I know I don´t have AV but I do not want to use a LR, it just doesn´t appeal to me at all, the hole model, bah. I do want another Dreadnought, since I don´t wanna leave that one guy alone :P - Is another squad of GK,one TGK squad and a dreadnought what I need more to get a solid 1k army with maybe some chance of change? - I would want another squad of GK and TGK + dreadnought, do u guys have a "market" around here where one could get some cheap? What are those PAGK? Regular GK? Purgation GK? - Which models are used for them? Thanks for reading through my messy posting and answering my questions, over and out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159580-new-to-40k-and-dh/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Firstly, welcome to the ranks of the Emperor's Finest! :D I strongly recommend you have a look through the Online Resources for WH/DH Players and DH Gotcha FAQ to get you up to speed on rules quirks with this army and a nice collection of information about how a pure or mostly pure GK army plays. (Silent Requiem's way of the water warrior is truly amazing, but it's huge. An excellent but brief condensation of SR's principles can be found in so you wanna play pure Grey Knights. These and other resources are all in that "Online Resources" topic pinned at the top of this forum.) Speaking of "rules quirks", your first order of business is to sit down with your friends and decide what to do about the RAW issues brought up in the "Gotcha FAQ". The army is entirely playable, but the codex is quite old and GW has not adequately errata'd or FAQ'd it for 5th edition play. Thus you will need to agree with your opponents how you wish to deal with these issues. I.e., * Play the army entirely RAW (for good, bad, and ugly) * Selectively house-rule "updates" to some of the outdated rules (e.g., just fix teleport homers and assault cannons to work as the modern versions in other codexes do but leave everything else RAW) * House-rule everything to be entirely updated to "modern" rules (e.g., on top of TP homers, assault cannons, force weapons, etc., replace the entry for GK Land Raider Crusaders to be exactly the same as the current Space Marines codex) There is no right or wrong way to go about this process, no right or wrong answers, it just has to be done. It is the one annoying thing about playing with the DH, but with a single circle of regular friends/opponents, the good news is you only have to do this homework once. :) Regarding your purchases, you're well on your way to getting a solid force! Normally, we don't use more than a single GK Hero to lead 1000 pt GK armies, saving the rest of our terminators for larger games. GKTs are awesome, but you need a good solid core of Troops GKs to actually win most games, as only Troops GKs can claim objectives. I field between 20 and 24 at 1000 pts, and that's too big an investment to leave much room for GKTs, sadly. It is also difficult to get the most out of GKs toting incinerators unless they're taking a ride in a land raider. Otherwise, you've spent points to reduce your superman Grey Knight to nothing more than a wildly expensive, but otherwise bog-standard, Space Marine with a heavy flamer. This is not a good trade-off unless you have some means of earning interest on that investment. Walking up to an an enemy is almost never going to cut it. Land raiders are what is required. Don't worry about preferring dreadnoughts to land raiders. I share that preference, and I do just fine. It just means I rarely use incinerator GKs. I'd shoot for one dread in games less than 1000 pts, two at 1000 pts. To answer some of your specific questions... Can I use a regular GK as those purgation squads? Purgation squads are nothing but regular GKs with different rules for how much special weaponry can be bought in the squad. I wouldn't ever field a purgation squad in preference to either a dread or a land raider, however. Purgation squads are prohibitively expensive if used as intended (to max out psycannons or incinerators), or exceedingly weak and useless if fielded at minimum squad size. I promise you, you will never have a reason to prefer a purgation squad over a Troops GK unit for any reason at all. Two incinerators in one unit are plenty, as are two psycannons in one unit. Without land raiders, you should almost always skip the incinerators, and unless you intend to build a firebase unit to hold objectives (a worthy goal, I hasten to add), you should also skip the psycannons. You can never go wrong by fielding GK units pure vanilla, no "upgrades". Take special weapons sparingly, or not at all. Is it really that bad a idea to use smaller GK squads then 8? (been lurking around here) Yes it is that bad an idea. You can get away with it much easier in small points games, but even then I wouldn't recommend it. You're always going to be outnumbered, your Troops are always going to be targeted (because those are the units that win games), so you need big units to maintain effectiveness despite inevitable losses. Grey Knights are not Space Marines! We don't have the luxury of throwing away any of our models or units! Sacrifice is not part of our tactical toolbox. Astartes players regularly toss away 5-man units/combat squads to set up other tactical benefits. We cannot afford to do that. Keep your units big. It's the only way this army works. Which means that you're going to want to boost your numbers by buying GK blister packs rather than box sets. Otherwise you're overloading on Justicars and incinerator GKs. You'll end up with far more than you will ever have need for. Isn´t it a pure DH army if I use maybe a vindicare assasin/death cult ass/inqvisitor lord? Yes, but "purity" shouldn't be a concern. Just play with the units you want! Although I would strongly recommend against both the Vindicare and Death Cult Assassins. The Vindicare is a cool model and concept but absolutely terrible in execution. You'll be lucky to kill a single model in an entire game with that guy. Total waste of points. Take a Callidus or Eversor instead. Even a Culexus can prove useful; at least much more so than a Vindicare. Death Cults give up Kill Points far too easily to be worth it. They're not as deadly in assaults as they were in previous editions of 40K, and they cost almost as much as a GKT. Given the option to field either a GKT or a DCA, you should always pick the GKT. For what it's worth, here's the 1000 pt list I've been running since this past December to excellent effect. [91 pts] BC, psycannon [226 pts] 6 GKs, 2x psycannon, targeter or 8 GKs, frags [200 pts] 7 GKs [200 pts] 7 GKs [145 pts] Dreadnought, TLLC, ML, extra armour [138 pts] Dreadnought, TLLC, DCCW, extra armour, smoke Total: 1000 pts If you really wanted to field your GKTs, you could drop one unit of GKs for 3-4 GKTs, perhaps with a psycannon, and (depending on how many GKTs you buy and whether you include a psycannon) still have points left over 1-2 additional GKs to pump up your remaining Troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159580-new-to-40k-and-dh/#findComment-1871073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilgar Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Thanks alot! I got confirmation on a few things I´ve been contemplating on and u answered my immidiate questions hurray! Teen points and a Parrot sticker to u, as we say here <_< The rules shouldn´t be a problem, my regular gaming group tend to improve and add rules when needed, we even made a CIV4 rule set for that incredibely crappy eagle games Civ which didn´t have even half the rules written. But I will make sure we writ em up all neet and tidy as I will surely play other folks too. Excellent news, I tend to play my Woodies with minimum sacrificial units, meaning not really mass army but elites all the way, so I´m used to tactics which involves keepin your units alive shooting/avoiding/ganging up on the other guys :P Also many thanks for the example list. Not gonno play an replica, but it gives me a good general picture on how to use and combine units. I´ve actually read through some of tactical advice including the water thingey, don´t remember much but it´s slowly sticking in. The other dreadnought will have to wait, u aint rich when your a student ^_^ Did u answer the question about a market around here? Thanks a million again! :wub: :o Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159580-new-to-40k-and-dh/#findComment-1871214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Although I would strongly recommend against both the Vindicare and Death Cult Assassins. The Vindicare is a cool model and concept but absolutely terrible in execution. You'll be lucky to kill a single model in an entire game with that guy. Total waste of points. I would disagree slightly with this. The Vindicare can be good, he's just very dependent on your dice rolls. If you are someone who can regularly and consistently roll good dice, then take him. If you have fluctuating or outright bad luck, then don't, since number6's assessment will apply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159580-new-to-40k-and-dh/#findComment-1871343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clishay Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Did u answer the question about a market around here? I don't think B&C has an online marketplace they're associated with. That being said, ebay seems to be the best place to find discounted figs (for me at least), or if your favorite local gaming store has a selection of used figs for sale you could check there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159580-new-to-40k-and-dh/#findComment-1871379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilgar Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Alright. It seems to be hard to get some used GK :D ...searched a few finnish forums and not alot has come up, ebay seems to have just what I don´t need B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159580-new-to-40k-and-dh/#findComment-1872402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartans Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Not sure if I can post this but if I can't sorry. warseer.com has a trading forum which I found handy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159580-new-to-40k-and-dh/#findComment-1872467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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