Roultox Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I have always been a servant of Tzeentch, I just avoided it until my inspiration tingled more than usual. The whole fate weaving thing, dice rolls, 50/50 chance of making or failing the majority of armor saves, 50/50 chance of glancing vehicles and hurting anything with FoT, deep strike random rolls topped with ranged firepower and speedy templates. It all sort of mixed together, after abandoning a project that seemed to have modelling and fluff issues. I simply deterred myself from doing my previous projet. Lest the changer of ways influenced me to his bidding unwittingly narrowed myself under his will. :wallbash: So then, I have a ton of gangly flamers of tzeentch without realizing they were as such. Marine torso's with skulls for heads and arms/back/legs like an octopus with wires instead of slimey tentacles. Bartering the idea, they used to be sonic todding noise marines, with some obliterators in the making, 3 defilers that stood too tall made the same way out of old chaos dreadnoughts. Ironicly their cannons are as tall as the "mawcannon" would be. Having a sorcerer made up, he seemed to look more like a herald then a sorcerer. THe marine thing is mutation, corrupt marines and the like. This army didn't seem to be that. More like daemons, after thinking about it. So, the long trod of collecting dust is finally over, and I'm left with the hard choice on what to make my models. The "Marines" they were can easily pass as flamers of tzeentch for the most part. The horrors, that I love dearly(mathahmmer-wise) makes for a wonderful troop choice to make up the old noise marine units I used to field. Having teleporting "defilers" with upgraded mawcannons can take the defiler role, as for the poor obliterators I have yet to find their use, perhaps as chaos spawns for the gift of chaos power I intend to use. I am left with a force that I didn't intend for apocalypse now, since I have nearly 47 flamers of tzeentch, which would hamper any force if used properly in apocalypse. I am just at a loss of balance for normal games. I intend to keep units small so they die quick when charged, so that I may shoot my opponent the turn after, abusing the fearless rule for extra wounds on my smaller unit suffered in melee combat. I am also at a loss if I should include more Soul Grinders and Heralds with a power for each of them or go with Daemon Princes(modify the obliterators) and romp around with a balanced force. I intend on having lots of Horrors with a Bolt of change in each unit. Nobody seems to agree with me that they are worthwhile, I like the odds of 6 gtting 9 hits, and an average of 1.5 dead marines or 6 dead T3/4+save models(kroot/guard/tau/eldar/lots of stuff). They could easily return their 102 points worth if used properly. Also given their BoC, rear armor and ap1 is fun. Bad scatters, ranged and run rule for bad deep strike results of 3-4 is easily made up for. Tzeentch feels a bit more consistant and can punch hard the turn they arrive and pack the same rough tactics I used with the previous force they used to be. All models are custom and seem to fit the part. Anyone who runs a tzeentch daemon force post their lists please? Im not sure if the daemon prince thing should be a true buffer for the turn 2 blues of deep strike, soaking firepower and the like. I will include the changeling, he's too fun to pass up. My rough list: Total:1490 Models: 48+2 SG 80(1)Herald: Bolt of change 80(1)Herald: Bolt of change 160(1)Soul Grinder: Phlegm Upgrade 160(1)Soul Grinder: Phlegm Upgrade 105(3)Flamers of Tzeentch: No upgrades 105(3)Flamers of Tzeentch: No upgrades 105(3)Flamers of Tzeentch: No upgrades 112(6)Horrors: Bolt of change 112(6)Horrors: Bolt of change 112(6)Horrors: Bolt of change 112(6)Horrors: Bolt of change 112(6)Horrors: Bolt of change 135(7)Horrors: Bolt of change, Changeling Extended to 2000 may add more of whatever seems to work best from the 1500 list. The Apocalypse list will include all 40+ flamers of tzeentch, in smaller 3-5 size units with no upgrades. Critique? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
==Me== Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Not a lot of mobility there. I'm no fan of the MSU Horrors, mostly because they're simply too easy to kill off with combat or shooting. Combine that with limited mobility and mech armies can simply stay at arm's reach and blow you away. I'd beef up a couple units of Horrors to around 10 or so. 3-4 of them should be fine. Then, some mobile units will help a lot. I like Heralds in chariots. Lots of wounds, 4+ armor, high T, combined with good shooting and speed. 2 or more of them with Bolt, We Are Legion, and Master of Sorcery can fly around nuking vehicles. Flamers with bolt wouldn't be too bad in this capacity either. Instead of using them as a suicide unit you can have a mobile reserve that can burninate, dish out the warpfire, or fire off a bolt. Grinders are fine in this sort of list, they provide some much needed combat ability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1874265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Definitely take Soul Grinders or DPs in the Tzeentch-pure list. Tzeentch shoots. Does it well. ==Me== is pretty on-target, though. ~3 8-10 horror units with Bolt, and go from there. Bring a couple heavy support choices that can shoot and assault, and chariot-heralds and flamers to taste. I have to admit I'm kicking around a similar thing for my own theoretical mono-Tzeentch force. The other option is to bring Fateweaver and take DPs as heavy support, and hope to get everyone close enough to Kairos to re-roll your saves, and then just shoot a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1874285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roultox Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Perhaps larger units could get lucky dishing out scores of wounds hitting vital models in other units and rendering them useless.. Hmm.. The "suicide" aspect is more for the Grinders to move, blast a pie plate and then charge for 5 attacks, wiping most units off the table in most cases, I like how grinders work in comparison the the more fragile defilers I used to use. Chariots and the Eternal Warrior rule are wonderful together, just one problem. If I need room to place them, it becomes a problem when laying down two big chariots, I see khorne/slaanesh chariots more suited for it I think, strength 3 power weapon attacks, even with the wounds dont seem to cut it for me. (banshees never had luck against me) I want to keep it a bit tight for deployment issues and deep strike. I've always but it close with my old 3 man terminator units. The flamers kept small, I can keep alive behind cover, and any bigger all wont be able to fire at the target with their flamers. In arrow formation, one and two on either side behind the main model, seems to get better hits that way. I feel its more of a shock troop value then a mainstay unit, given its lack of durability for their cost. I wont pay +20 points for a weapon with +1 ballistic skill in an already specialised unit without ample bodies to take hits for the weapon purchased, don't know why flamers have it other then hitting the rear of tanks which horrors could deep strike there easily. Given that some people may use mass firepower units, like having 4 heavy bolters, with just two horrors left in a unit to wipe makes it a waste of firepower. Slitting troops to score, I like how the old 3rd edition min/max worked, and 6 seems to be a good number for it. GW put it in there! So, for say a wraithlord gets a pair of wounds from 3 FoT nearby, then gets finished off by two or three bolts of change tries, or worse, have a pair of FoT units near a wraithguard unit no cover or regular saves on 4+'s. Those units bug me, makes me smile thinking about it. So, seems there are massed firepower in horrors, coupled with anti tank value in there, flamers for any target munching, a few obli-heralds, and defi-grinders. Nice firepower, I think I'll do it. The larger units may be harder to place, but horrors could use more bulking perhaps at the cost of a herald and a unit of flamers. Just for the good measure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1874309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Just a couple of quick things, 1) the others are right, big squads or no squads. 2) A tzeentch chariot is designed to be fast a shooty, don't give him soul devourer, no matter what you do he will not be good in CC, so make him good at range. I'll post more when I can be bothered to read your whole post ;) It's too early to read all that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1874394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Besides, if you want 'hard to place' in a deep strike, try Bloodcrushers with the 60mm base, or Soul Grinders and you'll get the REAL definition of hard to place. 6-10 horrors have a deep strike footprint roughly comparable to a 5-man Terminator unit. It's not that bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1875163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Tzeentch is fun! To echo others, big units and SGs/DPs. You've already got SGs, I see, so consolidate units together just for that extra punch. Also, in case you're wondering, *carefully looks around for Cpt Malachi* don't take the Lord of Change. Heralds are better for the cost. Oh, and I know this goes without saying, but don't DS near the enemy with Horrors. It's tempting, but don't. Let us know how it turns out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1876660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Horrors need to watch more for blast weapons. T3 means that frag missiles and grenade launchers make them cry like little kids, and run back to the warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1876776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Also, in case you're wondering, *carefully looks around for Cpt Malachi* don't take the Lord of Change. Heralds are better for the cost. Right, time to summon Asuxeb. (He's my LoC) Actually though, in all seriousness, it's a build specific thing. He goes well in mine but he might not in others, it's all situational, just don't discount him entirely. Heralds are only better at shooting, and since pure Tzeentch lacks any CC ability a big ol' greater daemon might not be a bad investment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1877175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I AM THE AWESOME Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Aaagh! No! My eyebrow! What's happening to my eyebrow?!? No, don't get me wrong, I'm kind of like him too, but for most purposes Heralds are better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1877693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor1313 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I'd bring Soul Grinders to shore up Tzeentchian CC, and if I'm going pure Tzeentch, I'd even think about a unit of 4-5 screamers. They zoom in front of something, hold it up for a turn, then die gruesomely and you avenge them. Failing that, they go eat a tank. In mono-Tzeentch..he is CC. I'll grant him that. More costly than a Tzeentch DP (160 gets you Mark, Bolt and Gaze) but more durable, with higher strength. Tzeentch DP gets more attacks at similar and better WS. Of course, he's the same price as a Soul Grinder with Phelgm, so... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1877777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
djkest Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I was just thinking about this the other day, but what about a demon prince with Mark of Tzeentch, Wings, Bolt of Change : 200 points. T5 and a 4++ save. Too bad bolt is so expensive for DPs, but he does have BS 5.... For a mono-tzeentch army, having 2 heralds on Chariots with We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery, and Bolt just seems too good to pass up for 20 points. Moving like jetbikes, 5 wounds each, you are really gonna give your enemy a hard time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/159773-tzeetch-balance/#findComment-1879393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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