Stealth Rule - Camo Cloaks vs Sgt Telion?

[Marlow]

Salutations Readers,

 

Sgt Telion starts with the Stealth Rule which says "All of the unit’s cover saves are improved by +1" and there is no limitation listed on all the models in a unit having to have the rule for it to be effective. So does the whole Scout scout benifit while Telion is alive or is it badly written and they need Camo Cloaks?

[Steelmage99]

If the text doesn't stipulate any conditions, such as "While he remains in play", then no conditions exists.

[nighthawks]

a lot of people disagree on this one, though RAW seems to go as Steelmage says, there are reasonable objections to that interpretation.

 

see This Thread for the most recent discussion about it.

[Steelmage99]

By RAW it is as stated earlier.

 

By RAI it is......I have no idea. Unlike others I dont pretend to be able to mindread.

 

By Fluff. Once trained to be more stealthy, you don't lose the ability just because your training officer dies. Its not like Telion carries a branch with a lot of leaves around with him making the Scouts more stealthy. :D

 

IMO anyway.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not wanting to derail the linked threat (which is about having to purchase a Camo Cloak for Telion), I thought i'd ask this here.

 

Assuming you allow Telions Stealth rule to apply to the whole squad (and don't buy them Cloaks), what happens if you then Combat Squad Telions Scout Squad?

 

Do the 5 Scouts no longer with Telion not count as being in his Squad? Do they lose his Stealth?

[Oldenhaller]

Similar question to those units with other special characters granting them USR's or otherwise. In my mind yes, the character is part of the unit, grants the ability and then they combat swquad when they hit the table. As the character is assigned to the unit which then splits all the way up to when they hit the table they have the rule

 

~O

[Morticon]

Not wanting to derail the linked threat (which is about having to purchase a Camo Cloak for Telion), I thought i'd ask this here.

 

Assuming you allow Telions Stealth rule to apply to the whole squad (and don't buy them Cloaks), what happens if you then Combat Squad Telions Scout Squad?

 

Do the 5 Scouts no longer with Telion not count as being in his Squad? Do they lose his Stealth?

 

Definitely the would! Nothing to imply they have it as the member giving it is no longer there.

[Ideaus]

i belive they gave telion stealth so that he could go with the unit of scouts with a cloak an not stop them from benifiting from stealth, an because he isa named chaaracter he has no option to buy one. IMO

[greatcrusade08]

in my mind the confusion comes with how you define 'unit', in most cases rules cater for units as a whole, when a special 'upgrade' character (which are few and far between) has a special rule, then generally i treat everything like a guide book for dummies..

 

Normally a rule says "the character grants this ability to the squad" or something equally as telling, but the stealth rule doesnt say that, it speaks to a unit with the rule... since Telion has the rule and the unit doesnt, and there is no mention of an upgrade character granting the unit the bonus (we have rules for IC's not upgrade charcters) then its safe to assume its for his benefit alone..

 

So he doesnt get the benefit unless he is the last member of the squad left standing, which makes sense from a practicle point of view as someone suggested earlier, his abilites wouldnt hide ten other noobs any better... however would he find himself alone he would revert to Rambo.

 

GC08

[Souchan]

i belive they gave telion stealth so that he could go with the unit of scouts with a cloak an not stop them from benifiting from stealth, an because he isa named chaaracter he has no option to buy one. IMO

 

Cloaks make specific mention of squad and models in it, ruleswise he would get it.

 

I myself just play him as having his own cloak already and all that happens is he doesn't pay the 3 points when calculating squad cloaks. To me it seems the simplest and fairest way of doing it, needless to say, when I field Telion I discuss it with my opponent before hand.

[nighthawks]

this is certainly a topic for ye olde grey areas sticky. BTW souchan I like you're take on it. :)

[DevianID]

Im in the camp as steelmage i guess.

 

RAW, if the 'stealth' special rule is present in a unit (and it is with telion) then the stealth rule says the 'unit' gets +1 to their cover save.

 

If you combat squad, then ½ the squad has telion, and the other ½ doesnt. Combat squads are treated as seperate units, so in one combat squad the 'stealth' special rule is found, and in the other squad the 'stealth' special rule is not found.

 

RAI, perhaps they ment that the 'model' gets +1 cover save instead of the 'unit' gets +1 cover save... or maybe they want it exactly as it is. That I dont know.

 

What I do know is that, (my feelings about Telion teaching the squad how to be stealthy without buying cloaks aside,) I loathe the concept of being forced to pay 3 points for a cloak on telion. Paying 3 points on telion, who cant be modified in any way as a unique character, falls into the 'breaks a rule' category for me, thus I am more willing to accept that his squad benefits from stealth rather than being forced to add even 3 points to Telion.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Well if you take the interpratation that The whole unit benifits from telion "stealth" rule (which is a legitimate interpritation), however that means when Telion dies the squad loses stealth, because they dont have the stealth rule, they are just getting its benifit through Telion.

 

By fluff its not a case of Telion carrying around some extra sticks or the scouts forgeting how to hide, its a case of when the scout hides poorly Telion says "no, hide there instead." The scouts are learning, they dont already know. If someones car broke, and they handed me tools, I would not be able to fix it, if they handed me tools and started telling me what to do, I could (woo, I can fallow instructions). If they got shot through the face half way, I would no longer be able to finish fixing the car.

 

Now if you dont take the interpritation that the whole unit benifits from stealth, then just Telion does, but he WILL have that benifit, no only counts after the squad dies junk. Saves are rolled seperately for each set of independed wargear/stats so the rest of the scouts will role their cover save (lets say they got a 3+) and then Telion will roll his at 2+, I mean thats pretty much why wound allocation works the way it does.

[brakkar]

As someone mentioned, We aren't used to dealing with upgrade special characters, i play a scout sgt that counts as telion pretty much whenever i play scouts unless it's very low points. I go with he confers it to the squad as he's teaching them to do it, however i also discuss it with my opponent to ensure he's good with it and if he raises a problem with it i'll tweak my list and squeeze out points for cloaks for squad.

[Grey Mage]

So he doesnt get the benefit unless he is the last member of the squad left standing, which makes sense from a practicle point of view as someone suggested earlier, his abilites wouldnt hide ten other noobs any better... however would he find himself alone he would revert to Rambo.

 

GC08

Even if he doesnt grant it to the squad it would still be useful for making his own cover saves for- no reason to penalize the old guy unfairly.

[greatcrusade08]

Even if he doesnt grant it to the squad it would still be useful for making his own cover saves for- no reason to penalize the old guy unfairly.

yeah thats pretty reasonable i guess, i wouldnt have a problem with this...

 

GC08

[Ideaus]

as written in teh Little BRB on page 3 under units, "a unit consist of a number of models, but can also be a single model, very large or powerfull model, ...., ....... or a lone hero. in the rules that follow all of these things are refferred to as units. so telion under the stealth rule would be the only on to benefit. Since there is no option for him to have a camo cloak he cannot be made to buy one only the scout in his unit have to buy one if they to would like to beifit from stealth. but the whole unit benefits from his acute senses special rule.

[brakkar]

He also cannot be used as an IC, only as an upgrade character. Since he can only be taken as an upgrade character, anything he comes with benefits the squad. If he was available as an individual character, then i would agree that it only benefits him. But such is not the case, he can only be taken as an upgrade, so therefore the stealth should apply to the whole squad. If you take cloaks you have to take them for the entire squad, so would it be for stealth.

 

It would be pointless to give him this rule if it didn't apply, they could have just simply made his profile reflect that he has a cloak if that was all they meant.

 

But of course anything not spelled out is open to interpretation, and as such you can't know what the original author meant.

[greatcrusade08]

Since he can only be taken as an upgrade character, anything he comes with benefits the squad.

 

Do you have a quotable rule for this???

 

If not its complete suppostion... A + B = zwertiby.... not gunna get ya far in a game with rules im afraid ;)

 

Ideaus had it about right with his quoted rule!

 

GC08

[brakkar]

Well Codex says scout squad can replace it's sgt with telion. Therefore he's an upgrade character only.

 

As far as the unit being individual model or squad, stealth rule states that the Unit's cover saves are improved, not the unit's cover save is improved. This implies more than one model.

 

So as an example of logic for it. What happens if i take telion and don't want cloaks with my scouts? Foolish i know, who doesn't want a better cover save, but now i have a sgt with a +1 cover save compared to the rest of the unit. It is difficult to compare how a rule reads to how another one reads, simply because if you follow the same logic, one could argue that he would lose his steath but has no option for a cloak as per how few other rules read.

 

Logically to me, if you take him as an upgrade character he would confer it, however if he was also capable of being taken as a ic then he wouldn't.

 

The problem here is that just about everyone is going to interpret it as they read it. Many different people are going to read it differently. So far i have never had anyone question when the unit has stealth as compared to just telion. I play with a scout sgt who counts as telion and being as he's training the scouts, this is part of the training. This is how i usually explain it and so far no problems. If your playing in a tournament then a judge can make a determination, for friendly play, both players should be able to come to agreement.

[Legatus]

So as an example of logic for it. What happens if i take telion and don't want cloaks with my scouts? Foolish i know, who doesn't want a better cover save, but now i have a sgt with a +1 cover save compared to the rest of the unit.

In what way would that be a problem? There are several occasions where characters within units (IC or not) have better saves than the rest of the unit.

 

I am not sure on the issue of Telion and his Stealth ability myself, but if it was only affecting himself, that would work out just fine in the game.

[greatcrusade08]

As far as the unit being individual model or squad, stealth rule states that the Unit's cover saves are improved, not the unit's cover save is improved. This implies more than one model.

 

In some cases this would be correct, remember the stealth rule isnt solely used by Telion but b y other units too.

 

as written in teh Little BRB on page 3 under units, "a unit consist of a number of models, but can also be a single model, very large or powerfull model, ...., ....... or a lone hero. in the rules that follow all of these things are refferred to as units

 

Telion is a single model, he has the rule his squad does not!

 

Of course some people believe differently, which is why these threads exist!

 

GC08

[Legatus]

If I may give an opinion on the description of "units" and the stealth rule. GW uses differend terms when they describe how models benefot from the universal special rules.

For some rules it says "units with this rule", for others the rules say "troops with this rule". For "counter attack" the rule refers to them both as "troops with this skill" and "units with this skill". So does it mean the same? Will all models that are currently part of a unit benefit from the +1 attack for "counter attack", or only the models that actually have that rule? Some rules describe that "models with this rule" are affected. THat is very specific. Or is it, since the rule for "night vision/acute senses" then declares that this rule actually affects every model in th eunit even if only the character has it. The "tank hunter" rule only explains that "they" get certain bonuses. Does that mean the whole unit, or just the models with this rule?

 

So to sum it up: Sometimes the rules refer to "units", "troops", "models" or "them" when it describes who benefits from the rule and how. Some rules where "units" or "troops" are mentiones they specifically explain that they do not work for all models if a model does not have this rule (like fearless). Some rules where "models" are mentioned then specifically describe that the rule also affects other members of the unit who temselves do not have this rule (like acute senses).

 

To me it looks very much like there is no real meaning or purpose behind the term that is used for any given universal special rule, and GW simply tried (as they often do with repeating similar rules) to loosen up the language and not repeat a similar statement 22 times in a row. Because of that, and also because there are several universal special rules where it specifically points out how it works if not all models in the unit have this special rule, I think that all the universal special rules statements are simply like "whoever has this rule is affected in such and such a way", and th elack of any further specification for the "stealth" rule means only those who actually have this rule benefit from it. Though in the case of the "probably too short) "stealth" rule, the chosen term for "whoever has this rule" was not the most convenient.

[SeattleDV8]

Telion is a single model, he has the rule his squad does not!

The problem with that logic is that Telion cannot be bought as a single model, he must be bought as an upgrade to a squad.

[DevianID]

I agree with your statements Legatus; you correctly point out that many special rules are fast and loose with terms such as 'model' and 'unit', but I just want to add one thing.

 

Namely, the rules for cover (not just the rules for stealth) are all about a benefit to the entire squad.

 

AKA, if you have 3 models in 4+ cover, and 2 models out of cover, the models out of cover still benefit from the 4+ cover. Wierd, I know, but once a unit is determined to have a cover save, the entire unit shares the same cover save.

 

Next, if you have 3 models in 4+ cover, 4 models in 3+ cover, and 3 models in the open, the entire unit benefits from a 3+ cover save. Again, wierd.

 

So with stealth, one reason why the designers maybe choose to use the word 'unit' is because cover saves are 'unit' dependant abilities, and the entire unit will have the same save--stealth just improves whatever the 'units' cover save is by +1.