Is there any reason to NOT take a Daemon Prince?

[eyescrossed]

Cale, by 3+/2+ he means 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound :lol:

[Roultox]

165/ Chaos Lord: Daemon Weapon, Jump Pack, Mark of Tzeentch

 

-Two tries with a 1 in 6 failure and recieve a wound, separate rolls for shooting and melee, when compared to the khorne daemon weapon. Range of 24" allows you to be tactical with a Independant Character, on top of mobility. Chances of failing is one turn, you have three wounds to buffer 6 turns of shooting. The only lord that can start the daemon weapon pain from turn 1. Plus that nifty 4+ inv save, cant forget that...

 

155/ Same as above except with the mark of slaanesh

 

-Initiative 6 character hunter, with 9 attacks you will wound with one against a carnifex and remove carnifexes outside synapse range.

(9 attacks, 6 hits, 1 wound, dead carny)

 

Those are the two high end tactical lords that bypass daemon princes, and a sorcerer with the mark of slaanesh can do the same but your not looking for a psyker, and the sorcerer may hit less. (Warptime+JPack+MoS sorcerer is 150 points) - Smaller risk to perils of the warp however. I prefer the lord for troop munching ability in one stroke.

 

Oher then that I feel lords are for the fun of it, or fluff. Daemon Princes are a bit rough especially when WS3 units face it in melee and must hit it on a 5+, worse off if they're str3 too and need 6's to wound, facing a 3+ save...

 

155:Prince with Warptime and Wings

Can hurty 5 attacks, hitting and wounding a plenty.

VS a carnifex or other toughness 6 monster:

5 attacks, 4.4 hits, 3.3 wounds, landing you quite ahead of the mark. Though if its one of those with 8 attacks your gonna miss about 2.6 wounds after 5+ save.

(MoS lord can do it better outside synapse range honestly)

 

Prince: Shoot me I got a bullseye painted on me, I cant take as much firepower as a unit of marines equal to my cost.

Lord: If you shoot me I messed up because Im indepenedent, I can do the same things the prince can but I cant his as hard, but I can hit 2x as much or more!

Sorcerer: Im like the lord but I cant hit so much, my powers makes me do things the other two cant, pick me pick me!

 

Prince is a firepower soaker, lord is a scalpel, sorcerer is a slightly different scalpel. I take a prince when I dont want my defiler shot to death on the first turn. :whistling:

[mightygoose]

i always saw daemon princes as still aspiring... not fully ascended to the next plane.... so fluff wise i have a lord leading the army while the DP is 2nd in command but spends most of the time pursuing his personal goal of ascension, IE the DP cannot be relied on to make the right tactical decision if his own agenda is in conflict... either way, that's my take....

[davidren2401]

Your prince need not be a prince in the strictest sense. My warsmith got his hands on some necron technology (one Veil of Darkness, one Phylactery and a nice slab of Monolith hull that he fashioned into a suit of living metal), combine this with a hefty dose of sorcerus magic and bam! A daemon prince that got his wings, Eternal Warrior and his stats respectively without ever relying on the Gods. Very IW.

[Askari]

Is here any reason not to take 2 daemon princes with lash?

 

Yeah, if you don't want to, if you feel it goes against the fluff or you just don't like Daemon princes. I run Lords with daemon weapons because i don't like having my characters not in a unit. I usually just throw them in a unit of raptors with a powerfist champ. Havok squads with 2 meltas and two flamers plus a powerfist champ in rhino are also good bodyguards.

 

I like the idea of the quest to become a daemon prince. One you become one you just become unit with almost no options that can only be used for one thing and has very little character.

 

If you want to take one take one. If you don't then don't.

[Cale]

Two Dps with Lash are generally good, but situationally pretty lousy. Against a mechanized Eldar list, for instance, you'll feel pretty silly for having shelled out for two lashes. There are plenty of situations, really, where the second lash prince, or prince in general, isn't really worth it.

[CelestialSon]

Here's my reason: i can win without them.

 

Chaos lord, mark of khorne, lightning claws, jugger. It's been fun so far

[minigun762]

Two Dps with Lash are generally good, but situationally pretty lousy. Against a mechanized Eldar list, for instance, you'll feel pretty silly for having shelled out for two lashes. There are plenty of situations, really, where the second lash prince, or prince in general, isn't really worth it.

 

Thats very true and probably one of the reasons that Lash isn't the insta-win that it could be, most people are running some sort of mechanized list which helps to mitigate its effects.

 

If you wanted to run 2 Daemon Princes and were just looking for effectiveness, I'd go with 2 Khorne DPs. 140 points a pop and dead killy. Not quite as deadly as a Warptime Daemon Prince, but cheaper and there is no worries about Psychic Hoods or Eldar Runes. You point them in the direction of something and they go smash it up in typical Khorne fashion.

[CelestialSon]

Well, no arguing that. CSMs usually get the job done in CC. Having a DP or a greater daemon to combine with a unit of CSMs or take on an additional unit on their own is very helpful. Honestly though, the only thing that makes the DP truly worth it is the eternal warrior. Otherwise, i think the sorc has it beat

[CelestialSon]

Well, no arguing that. CSMs usually get the job done in CC. Having a DP or a greater daemon to combine with a unit of CSMs or take on an additional unit on their own is very helpful. Honestly though, the only thing that makes the DP truly worth it is the eternal warrior. Otherwise, i think the sorc has it beat

[Penmarch']

Depends on situation.

I prefer two sorcerors or a sorcerer and a Lord combined witha unit when playing IW or Slaanesh.

Daemon Prince somehow strikes me more as Khorne or, at a pinch Nurgle. Just a sentiment though.

[djkest]

Nurgle DP is the way to go. Most attacks are STR 4, so instead of needing 5s to wound, you need 6s. It makes it 50% more resilient to str 4 attacks.

 

Nurgle, Wings, Warptime [175]

 

:D

[the jeske]

Most attacks are STR 4, so instead of needing 5s to wound, you need 6s.

I would like to play where you play.

[tangomegadeath]

On a kinda related fluff subject, do Word Bearers have DPs???

[minigun762]

On a kinda related fluff subject, do Word Bearers have DPs???

 

I'd say its mixed.

In the Dark Crusade PC game, your Word Bearer Dark Apostle has the chance to become a Daemon Prince, however in the Dark Disciple books, the Dark Apostles of the Legion are described as being human-equse.

 

I think it could go either way really, few Legions are closer in their devotion to Chaos then the Word Bearers and as such the gift of Daemonhood seems particularlly powerful for them, yet we don't have any hard and fast examples outside of the PC game showing any kind of Daemon Prince of the Word Bearers.

 

Personally, I see no problem with it.

[Brother Nihm]

On a kinda related fluff subject, do Word Bearers have DPs???

Lorgar is a Daemon Prince.

Jason Errington made up his own prince: here

There's also the aforementioned Eliphas the Inheritor, from the PC game.

[Spaakl Daakli]

I like my armies to feel more "realistic" and having 2 ancient and powerful demi-gods working hand in hand doesn't give me that feel. :)

 

I take your point, but if ever "2 ancient and powerful demi-gods" were to be "working hand in hand", they would have to be your Slaanashi boys! :)

 

Or girls!! ^_^

 

Or whatever!!! :) :)

 

I run a Lord + Sorceror in my Word Bearers. I'm a new player, and they simply haven't done enough to justify ascension to the ranks of the Eternal Ones (and they will have to do a heck of a lot to get there). Even though I'm looking at playing in a lot of tournaments, the story is far more important than any mere game, for me. B)

[chillin]

As to the OP

I'm sure it's already been said but the biggest reason not to take a DP is b/c it's a MC.

On a terrian hvy board it's not too bad, but on a board w/ less or small (in size) terrian, DP's can die pretty quick.

I started using an undivided lord w/ wings & D. weop. and he's worked pretty well for a while now.

1- he's gotta have wings/jumppack.

2- don't put him with a csm squad losing you that 2nd special weop. Put him in a LR w/ 8 brzrkrs or have him flying behind LR/rinos for cover.

3- thinking about where and when you put him in should keep him from getting insta-squished by PF most of the time. (I can't remember the last time my lord got killed by a PF, I think it's only happened once or twice)

[Rain]

Rain, you never hit on 2+ in combat, regardless of how high your weapon skill is. An Avatar (ws:10) attacking a Firewarrior (Ws:2) still hits on 3+.

 

Warp Time significantly increases the damage a Daemon Prince deals on average, taking him from an average of around three kills when charging to an average of almost five.

 

This depends on what you take a daemon prince for, and also remember that it's not just about how much extra gross killing power you get, but how cost efficient that power is relative to existing stats. Due to a daemon prince's already high WS and Str which is what the 3+/2+ was referring to, 3's to hit, 2's to wound against MEq infantry, sure each attack goes from roughly having a 56% chance to kill to an 85% chance, which seems nice but now consider that

 

A.) I use my prince mostly as a fire magnet anyway which necessitates low cost B.) he can hurt himself casting warp time, making him lose a wound which counteracts his job of absorbing punishment and C.) Although the usefulness of warp time is more pronounced when you have more attacks (irony as khorne marked cant be psykers) if your prince does not charge the difference is only 2.24 vs 3.4 marines dead. Kind of meh. My point is that the usefulness of warptime scales inversely with WS and Str and directly with amount of attacks, too bad princes have high WS and Str but not many attacks.

[minigun762]

Rain, you never hit on 2+ in combat, regardless of how high your weapon skill is. An Avatar (ws:10) attacking a Firewarrior (Ws:2) still hits on 3+.

 

Warp Time significantly increases the damage a Daemon Prince deals on average, taking him from an average of around three kills when charging to an average of almost five.

 

This depends on what you take a daemon prince for, and also remember that it's not just about how much extra gross killing power you get, but how cost efficient that power is relative to existing stats. Due to a daemon prince's already high WS and Str which is what the 3+/2+ was referring to, 3's to hit, 2's to wound against MEq infantry, sure each attack goes from roughly having a 56% chance to kill to an 85% chance, which seems nice but now consider that

 

A.) I use my prince mostly as a fire magnet anyway which necessitates low cost B.) he can hurt himself casting warp time, making him lose a wound which counteracts his job of absorbing punishment and C.) Although the usefulness of warp time is more pronounced when you have more attacks (irony as khorne marked cant be psykers) if your prince does not charge the difference is only 2.24 vs 3.4 marines dead. Kind of meh. My point is that the usefulness of warptime scales inversely with WS and Str and directly with amount of attacks, too bad princes have high WS and Str but not many attacks.

 

Its this logic that I use when I say that the Khornish Daemon Prince is under appreciated. No chance of being stopped by bad dice or the opponent's funky wargear and a naked DP is already crushing most units they go up against.

Its the same kinda issue with Daemon Weapon Lords vs dual Claws. Dual Claws are safer and more reliable, but have less overall killing potential.

In the big picture, they're all going to work out well for you.

[Aidoneus]

I always use 2 daemon princes, ever since the current codex came out. I'm not a powergamer by any stretch, but that's just what works for me. Also, I don't care all that much for fluff in-game. It's already sort of ridiculous that space marines can outnumber orks or 'nids and still lose, or that a named character can lead a 1000pt or less scouting party. I find it easier to consider fluff on the one hand, and game play as a separate matter entirely. But that's just me.

 

For my princes, I generally go with 1 of 3 varieties:

 

Mark of Khorne, Wings

Mark of Tzeentch, Wings

Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Lash of Submission

 

The naked Khorne DP is just a good, solid, basic DP. He has the extra attack, which is well worth the 10pts, and that's it (I consider wings mandatory). The naked Tzeentch DP is almost never considered, but I like him a lot. I get a 4+ inv save, which keeps him alive a lot longer against the weapons DPs especially fear (plasma, lascannons, powerfists, etc). I could give him a psychic power (or two), but I honestly don't think any of them (aside from Lash) are worth taking on a DP, so I just save myself the points. And lastly, of course, we all know the joys of the Lash prince.