An Ethical Question on deception

[MechSpacewulf]

The set up, game night at the basement bunker at my place... I arrange the terrain on the table, set up my army

[ http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=159898 ] from a list I made up to fight Daemons a couple of days ago on the table ready to deploy off to the side and get the call that the Daemon guy is not coming when my other buddy shows up with a Chaos Army ( He has 20+ years experience and has every army in the 40K Universe, I have been taught by him when I got hooked 8 months ago ) Chaos guy pulls out a paper and starts putting his army together, meanwhile my army is all set up and in full view ( am I a newbie or what ) granted I only have 19 figures and 3 drop pods with a Ven Dread total in a 920 point game and he went with all troops or so I thought, I asked him if that was all he got for 920 points ( I counted 21 models and thouth these guys were maxed out and was wondering what nasty powers they had ) and he said yes and we rolled a ANNIHILATION game with DoW deployment and of course I lost and he made me go first, He did NOT choose to deploy any models and did NOT choose any reserves so I put my HQ with 4 BodyGuard out and dropped two pods around them and had to waite for my final pod in reserve. I did not move my HQ which was dead center with modest cover and good LOS to make sure to limit his options. I told him I was done and he asked me if I was going to move my HQ and I did ( another dumb ass newbie move by me because I was happy with where they were and I was thinking he was doing some coaching because he had taught me and I fell for it )move them forward out of cover towards cover but not in it. HERE COMES CHAOS 15 CM's= 2 sqds came in on my right from the table edge and his HQ with 6 came in on the left and then SUPRISE! He pulled a vindicator out of a box and placed it dead center (coming in from his table edge) heading towards and in range of my one DP with GH's and my HQ...

 

Has anyone used this tactic before? Does it work often?

 

Lesson 1: My army will always be under wraps literally, picked out and ready to go but out of LOS from now on

 

Lesson 2: I will silence the questions and squaking of my opponents which I am apperently enflunced by... better to take responsibility for a crappy

move then to be cajoled into one by a pathetic Jedi mind trick

 

I put a positive spin on it... I like to think that I have become adept enough to pose a threat and warrant his use of this tactic and take it as a huge compliment

[yergerjo]

Sounds more like a jerk move. Not the sort of situation I would want in a friendly game. Just me though

[Blitzkrieg861]

Yeah that was kinda a mean thing to do to someone. Especially someone you took under your wing. If someone asks me what I have in my army, I'll tell them (unless its a magic weapon/item in a fantasy game because I don't have to then) I tell them this info because its sportsman-like. However, if I ask them something and they refuse me any information I request, that's the last time I'll tell them anything. I will even at this point refuse to show an army list until the game has been completed. I will be more than willing to have the list checked by an objective third party but they will not know until its my turn to deploy, and will never know for the rest of the times I ever play against them.

 

Honestly, doing the army switch like that is pretty cheap and dishonorable.

[JamesI]

Yeah that was kinda a mean thing to do to someone. Especially someone you took under your wing. If someone asks me what I have in my army, I'll tell them (unless its a magic weapon/item in a fantasy game because I don't have to then) I tell them this info because its sportsman-like. However, if I ask them something and they refuse me any information I request, that's the last time I'll tell them anything. I will even at this point refuse to show an army list until the game has been completed. I will be more than willing to have the list checked by an objective third party but they will not know until its my turn to deploy, and will never know for the rest of the times I ever play against them.

 

Honestly, doing the army switch like that is pretty cheap and dishonorable.

Completely agree.

 

I've played enough people where they'll ask questions about my stuff and refuse to answer similiar questions back. But most players are reasonable.

 

Swapping out the army like that was wrong. Makes it look like he decided what to use after you deployed.

[Ming]

Yeah, I've played a couple of people like this -

 

MISLEAD THEM.

 

Put a horde force out in the open on parade...after he picks a list, bring out the real guys...

 

I always show up at my LGS ready to play with preconstructed lists. Many times I see guys start picking their list once they know we'll be playing - many know what I typically use.

 

SURPRISES MATTER.

[Captain Malachi]

Woah, how did he just stick a vindi on the board like that? What rule lets him do that?!

[chapter master 454]

That I call is a the mans private part move. While army switching is a cheap tactic I do enjoy some surprises (except those that are like 'ohz I'z gotz melta bombz soz I'z blowz upz youz raiderz, lolz' which is the biggest dick-move ever. Now while disclosing lists is sportsmanship we gotta remember those who play not for fun but to win who then take any and all cheesey options (instead of giggle lists as I call them) which ticks me off. One guy I know says he has imperial guard but really has even ravenwing or eldar which is another big dick-move (ether though I carry two lists, 'luckily I keep a shpare'). My advice is telling him to jog on, I'd never play someone like that again, aka 'play to win instead of fun'

[brgerkng]

SUPRISE! He pulled a vindicator out of a box and placed it dead center heading towards and in range of my one DP with GH's and my HQ...

 

I agree with the popular sentiment. If I played against someone that did this I would definitely say something to them about it. In the group/store I play in people tend to set out their army on the side of the table (ie: outside the 4x6 feet on a 8 foot length of plywood), the only exception is if you have a lot of models as part of a horde list, or space is at a premium that night.

 

In general if there is anything as a part of my list I think my opponent will be confused about I try to inform them about it. If they have any questions I will answer them honestly. This includes letting them look at the codex or my list if need be. For the most part I would also expect this from anyone else and I rarely run into problems with the group I mainly play with.

 

The one problem I've had with someone I played was when I went to another store to play. They guy I played was using demons. Since I had little to no experience or knowledge of them I asked him if I could look through the codex so I wouldn't have to bug him about everything. His initial reply was resistant, claiming I should know the army books. After I asked again he did let me look, but he still gave me a little bit of a hard time about it. By most accounts this guy is a bit "shady", so take it how you will.

 

I put a positive spin on it... I like to think that I have become adept enough to pose a threat and warrant his use of this tactic and take it as a huge compliment

 

I wouldn't try to put a positive spin on it. If someone did it to me I would take it as a insult. If someone wants to pull a trick on you its not because they think they need it to win, but that they think they can pull something on you.

[Reinholt]

This problem is easily solved.

 

I always insist on seeing my opponent's army list before we play, and give them a copy of mine. Why? Because when you can catch errors in lists (which do happen) before you start play and make sure neither player is doing something illegal, then you are much less likely to have some kind of issue over it during the game. It also lets me scope out his units before the game to find out if I see anything I know have some rules we're going to want to discuss before the game starts (again to avoid issues).

 

And, of course, it prevents ninja moves and cheating. I want to beat people fair and square, and vice versa. I have a tendency of being very hard to cheat or lie to, and this is not accidental.

[tedwin183]

As for his deployment...that is a very typical strategy even if you DO know his entire list. DoW is such a crappy deployment, IMO. EVERYONE who wins the toss seems to defer and choose to put nothing on the table at first. Just be really mindful of how you place your things in DoW because MOST people play it that way. Just deploy far back to negate that cheap move it's round of unanswered shooting.

[Ethrion]

If it was just a 'friendly' game then that was a bit of a cheap thing to do.

Personally I think I am quite lucky with the group of people I game with at my local store. Generally we try not to gear lists to deal with specific enemies, we might have a few different list variations but that's about it. If we are against new players, up against a new list or someone is proxying a few units then we tend to give a quick run down of what we both have just to keep things friendly and fair.

I can't speak for everyone I play against but for me I tend to try and not be pedantic and nit pick during my battles either. For example, if someone is moving their vehicle and a teeny tiny part of it slightly touches a forest or swamp etc I won't shout up for a difficult terrain test. Equally, the one thing I don't like is people being very liberal with their movement/measuring one moment, and then super exact and picky the next.

Mostly though, because it is just a friendly game we try and give good advice and remind people if they have forgotten an important thing.

With all that said however, being open with your lists beforehand is just a 'serving suggestion'. Equally you can quite legitimately hide all your units prior to battle, refuse to tell your opponent what is in each vehicle etc and therefore make it quite a suprise. It is entirely up to you but I'm not a big fan of this style of play, afterall it is just a game and we are meant to be having fun. :lol:

[Frosty the Pyro]

Correct me if I am wrong but arent you required by the BRB to declare what units are outflanking, and which are coming in from reserve normaly (also deepstriking) before the first turn even begins?

[MechSpacewulf]

Karma will get you...we finished the game last night (DoW Deployment and Annihilation) and my HQ with their mastercrafted assault cannons took out the Vindicator by knocking out its cannon ( rending rules! )... I wiped out a Squad of CM's and then took out his Khorne Beserkers by charging them with GH's that had 3 PW's and that was the game... I had 2 kill points and he had 1 ( he tried to blow up a drop pod to tie but failed in turn 6 ) Clear victory. He was really PO'd about all the power weapons in the GH unit but the leader had one and 2 of the GH's were upgraded so I showed him the codex because I have nothing to hide;) The key to my victory was maneuvering away from his beserkers and forcing him to get in range of my pods missile... of the 3 pods 2 had their weapon destroyed and the one took out 3 of 10 beserkers before I shot and charged them so it was well worth it in the end.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Good man, I'm glad you were able to beat him on a level playing field. Too bad you couldn't have spanked him after his jerk move too. Oh well, I think you've probably shown him whats what. I'd be weary of playing with that person in the future though. Maybe you should do everyone a favor and punch him in the gut and steal his army case. I just so happen to have space on my shelf for a new army :o

[MechSpacewulf]

Almost forgot...when he was trying to go for the tie and assault my drop pod and use his melta bombs, he measured to the door and I pointed out that he had to get to the hull which the door was not part of (RAW Pg. 56 of the rulebook VEHICLES & MEASURING DISTANCES ) which meant he was still 4 inches to short to assault and he was going to have to take a couple of pot shots with a plasma gun ( one shot overheated and the other missed ) he began to ague when I went for the rulebook and he quickly conceded the point ( remember that this guy has over 20 years experience and has and plays EVERY army and when he plays IG or DE is impossible to beat ) so I am once again flattered that he would attempt to breeze through the move and even made me pull out my SW dex a couple of times to verify my squads integrity... nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.

 

Side Note: the guy is fun to play against and makes me a better player and more aware of every move I make... he now lets me makes mistakes and then we discuss the move e.g when I had the chance to move my guys into to cover and instead spread them out to better my chances against the vindi... well 3 of 8 survived and I learned another lesson so I look at it as some beardy crap which he will be harassed for at our next big game and will never do again and I am garnering more of his respect as my skills increase. We shook hands at the end of the game and he congratulated me. This shows two things... never give up because when he wiped out my 1 of 2 GH's by turn 2 and knocked out one of the pods missiles I thought it was going to be a 4 turn game but when I made it to turn 5 and was still in it through some creative back pedaling the game was back on. The other is to not be afraid to see the rule or call someone out in a friendly manner because you can not assume a player of 20+ years know them all <_<

 

Thanks for the support and letting me vent.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Honestly man, this guys sounds like a freakin cheater. I'm glad he conceeded his thoughts on the drop pod. Tell him that he can measure to the doors as part of the pod but also passing over those now counts as impassable terrain and would also likely give a cover save if shot over top of this part. If he wants to play like a wad, then treat him like one.

 

I'm glad you beat this tool

[jeffersonian000]

I've used the bait & switch tactic before, but only on people that build last minute armies to defeat the one I'm displaying. After they have built their force list, I hand them my list and pull out the army I'm actually playing. I then play my list as written against their list that they threw together at the last minute expecting to capitalize on what they thought I was going to play.

 

Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. People that build last minute armies to defeat what they see deserve a surprise, as they are trying to take an unfair advantage on those that plan out their lists before hand.

 

My personal feels on the topic.

 

Now, to the OP, that guy you played took unfair advantage of you, and the lesson to learn from it is to keep everyone honest by playing honest yourself. Bait & switch is never fun to encounter, and should only be used to prove a point. I for one never reveal what I'm playing until its time to compare force lists.

 

SJ

[MechSpacewulf]

SJ,

 

Thanks for putting it into perspective... you too Blitzkrieg. I always approach a game as friendly so this was a suprise especially when I asked him if that was all that he got for 920( I know the odd number but it works out for both ) and he said yes as he was going over my army with a fine tooth comb and even coming over and checking out the weapons I had in my squads because I could of course see the army he had just choosen...then again I should have laid into his vindi sooner with my matercrafted (3) AC's and neutralize the thing in turn 2 , did not realize how effective rending is against armor and neither did he I guess. GREAT ADVICE TO KEEP THINGS FRIENDLY. I will throw these house rules out for a vote so as to avoid loosing sight of having fun.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Wow, he's allowed to look through your entire army list and double check the weapons on the models before you can even see his list? Stop playing with this guy. I'm a pretty calm person but I would've either left and not come back, or leapt over the table and beat him senseless by now.

 

EDIT: I mean take a look man, he knows EVERYTHING about your army before you can even see the army he "made." We know he's a bait and switch hitter so whats to say he's looking and see's 5 Lascannons and says "naw, I won't take many tanks against that" or seeing you have tons of Heavy Bolters and says "yes, tons of dreads and preds are needed now" He's a blatant cheater and a terrible person. He's looking to capitalize on knowing what your army includes by insulting both your intelligence and understanding of the rules and simple freakin math. He's insinuating that you can't add the points for a Chapter Master with the awesome hard numbers of adding a power weapon and a storm bolter on top of that. This guy is insulting you. I'm glad that on a level playing field you're a better general. I still say punch him and take the army case... I have enough space for it on my shelf, kind sir.

[greatcrusade08]

Im pretty sure the rulebook says you have to declare what units flank/reserves etc...

Also i always thought it was a 'commonly practiced' rule that if you were asked for details of your army you had to show them....

 

What a tool....that wasnt a game but a chance for some guy to measure his manhood, which is why i carry the long red measuring whips sticks ;) ;)

 

GC08

[Blitzkrieg861]

No doubt eh. The guy is obviously taking advantage of his good kindhearted nature. I think I would've said something about it, even as a spectator. The guy needs a slap across the face.

[LIONS_SPEAK]

Well this is the game we play, the hobby we choose. For every complete :P head there is 10 good guys. But sadly our hobby reflects the real worls where anything goes and to the victor goes the spoils be it by fair means or foul. I bet it felt good to beat him fair and square though no tricks. Good on you :tu:

 

I personally would have stopped the first game in turn 1 leant over shook his hand, said a polite no thanks (conciede the game) and packed my things and walked away. As sportsmanship costs nothing. Many may disagree but everybody has there own standards of behaviour and what they see as fair this is just my personal opinion.

[greatcrusade08]

I personally would have stopped the first game in turn 1 leant over shook his hand, said a polite no thanks (conciede the game) and packed my things and walked away. As sportsmanship costs nothing. Many may disagree but everybody has there own standards of behaviour and what they see as fair this is just my personal opinion.

 

I did this once against an ork player, i told him i had like 700 points of tau i wanted to try out (odds and ends, no real army as such), and that he could slap together something quick to play me with at the local club....anyway he turned up with the cheesiest army he could put together, and at the beginning of turn 2 i walked away....if im not enjoying it, somethings wrong...

 

GC08

[Blitzkrieg861]

Walking away would definately be a good one. I've done it once during a game. It was more than halfway through but with all the rules checking and bantering and bickering about interpretations it took about the length of nearly two games. It gets to a point where you're bickering more than saying "I'm shooting this, I'm assaulting that" etc etc its just not enjoyable at that point...

[LIONS_SPEAK]

I've done it twice in the last year. People know im fair and flexible I can take a good beating (And do on most occasions ;) ) On each of the times I have explained why to them in a calm manner and walked away. Like I said everybody has their own ideas about the hobby, but its a game. I have my own standard of behaviour and morals which I will not drop, as to win by tricks is a hollow victory in my book. I may not be the best far from it but at least treat me with respect or find someone else to play. Thats my view and im sticking to it. :)

 

(LIONS_SPEAK steps off the soapbox) :P