Which Chaos Legion would you want released first?

[Belfast]

If it were just what I'd prefer, I'd rather have all the chaos marines in a single book, but one made in the spirit of the new loyalist book - ie, that special rules, units, equipment, and options are a good thing, and worth the space they take to include. I mean, the Loyalist book's actual army list is 15 pages long, with 2 to 5 entries per page depending on how many options they require (special characters and most vehicles require few, elite units generally require many, etc). I think a good chaos army list could fit in that, including:

 

Page 1: Special HQ (Abby, Huron, Bile, Cypher)

Page 2: Special HQ (Khârn, Ahriman, Lucius, Typhus)

Page 3: Special HQ (IW, AL, WB, NL)

Page 4: Generic HQ (Prince, Lord; with sorcerer and cult upgrades for both)

Page 5: Elites (Undivided Cult termies & vets)

Page 6: Elites (Khorne Cult termies & zerkers)

Page 7: Elites (Tzeentch Cult termies & sons)

Page 8: Elites (Slaaneshi Cult termies & noise marines)

Page 9: Elites (Nurgle Cult termies & plague marines)

Page 10: Elites (Possessed, Dreadnought; also rhino transport)

Page 11: Troops (Chaos Marines, Cultists, and mutant hordes)

Page 12: Fast Attack (Raptors, Bikes, & mini defiler/chaos sentinels)

Page 13: Heavy Support (Oblits, Havocs, Defiler)

Page 14: Heavy Support (Land Raider, Vindicator, Predator, maybe something new)

Page 15: Summoned Daemons (0-1 Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons)

 

Special Rules: All units except maybe oblits and raptors would either have an automatic mark built in or be markable. HQs would start with mark undivided, and could replace that mark th something else if they wished. Terminators can only be taken in armies that include an HQ that matches their mark. Power armored Cult/Vet units become troops choices in armies that include an HQ that matches their mark. Vehicles can have aligned options if the army includes an HQ with the appropriate mark (including a decent 'undivided' upgrade, and sonic weapons for slaaneshi marked vehicles). Chosen and generic terminators would be upgraded to a cult of their own, and would always be undivided. Cults in general would be made more expensive, and more elite (high Ws/Bs, fearless, etc) - this would make them actually feel like the veterans of 10,000 years of war, would cement them as the elites of the Legions while the bulk is provided by lesser servants fo chaos. It would ensure that the normal troops choices remain the most points efficient and attractive for that reason, but would allow purist 'original legion members only' armies for those who wanted such.

 

The army would include 'favor (or disfavor) of the gods' rules similar in concept to fantasy chaos mortals. Special characters would upgrade and restrict their armies in various ways fitting their gimmicks (Abaddon has all the marks, making all cult units troops, and might have a rule upgrading an attached unit of undivided termies; AL SC would give undivided vets the infiltrate rule; Cypher lets you replace 'fearless' with 'atsknf' for undivided vets & termies, etc). SCs in general would specifically reward you for taking units that match their mark, or prevent you from taking other marks outright, depending on their nature.

 

 

Add in some more options in the units themselves, and I think you would have a list capable of reasonably representing any of the chaos legions, as well as non-Legion chaos marine forces. You could even do a passing imitation of LatD. Again, all without side codeces, sub-codeces, variant lists, and all in a codex list no longer then what loyalist marines got.

 

 

I love the sound of this. the only thing I would possibly add to it would be for tzeentch. Another HQ or elites choice could be an aspiring sorcerors squad akin to the thousand sons war coven data sheet for apoc.

[Askari]

Makes more sense to just put the renegades and legions in one codex without destroying the fluff for the legions.

[Steve Irwin]

If GW ever do release Legion specific Codex’s (and they probably never will), they will most likely only do the main 4, in other words, it’ll be exclusive to World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperors Children and the Death Guard Legions, (so don't get your hopes up any of you minor Legions).

As was the case with the loyalist Legions, the big main four are Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels. GW have released Codex’s for all these Legions (and as a bonus, Black Templars too), making a total of 5 Space Marine Codex’s.

So Chaos will probably get the same treatment, Black Legion has already been done (current Chaos Codex), and the big four are yet to be done, if they do, it would make a total of 5 Chaos Marine Codex’s.

As for what I would like to see first, it would obviously be Death Guard, heck, I even use DeathGod’s Death Guard Codex to compensate for the lack thereof.

But if this was ever going to happen, it would be World Eaters first (I imagine -_- ), as they seem to be the most popular Legion, they have the most Khorne related datasheets for Apocalypse out of Chaos, and apparently, the most ‘powerful’ God to boot. :)

Steve

[Sception]

I sure hope that doesn't happen.

 

1) it reinforces the 'chaos hate each other more then anybody else' impression that will make inevitable future integration even more impossible.

 

2) it introduces yet 4 more marine codeces into a game that already has too many codeces in general and too many marine codeces in particular

 

3) it forces everybody to wait an average of 2 more years for new releases for their faction

 

4) it makes black legion unviable as an army, since the cult marines would be spun into other books, essentially turning every mark and cult unit they left in the main book into a 'black legion only' option, and introducing even more of the 'same model, different rules' confusion into 40k then we already have with 5 loyalist codeces using different rules for the same stuff and chaos marines and daemons using different rules for the same units.

 

5) it would keep the current rushed, poorly written, skeletal, rough draft of a chaos codex in print for several extra years.*

 

6) it would foster animosity within the chaos playing community as some people get new books while others are stuck waiting with the current garglemess.

 

7) it would make the inevitable policy reversal forced by the inability of the chaos base to support 6 different codeces even more painful.

 

 

*This is probably my biggest problem with the idea. The current chaos book is boring in the extreme. It fails to grasp the majesty of the faction or the imagination of its players. I say this: let them release a new, improved chaos codex. One that treats chaos with the respect that the current marine codex treats loyalists. One that makes an honest try at integrating the various potential army themes into a single expansive tome. If there still seems to be a need for separate cult or legion codeces, explore the option then.

 

But I still think the central problem is just one bad codex. Nothing deeper then that. Chaos in 40k has a bloody hang-nail. It's painful and annoying, but doesn't require so drastic a cure as amputation of all four limbs.

[CastratedCow]

If GW ever do release Legion specific Codex’s (and they probably never will), they will most likely only do the main 4, in other words, it’ll be exclusive to World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperors Children and the Death Guard Legions, (so don't get your hopes up any of you minor Legions).

 

What? WHAT?! And how do you figure the Word Bearers to be a minor legion? They started the Heresy. They still retain a high level of organization. And aren't they the most numerous legion? At the very least they have far more marines than the World Eaters, 1k Sons, and Emp's Kids.

[Conor The Great]

I like to see 2 new codices(plural?).

One dealing with Black Legion and all other Undivided warbands and Legions

And another one dealing with each God and there followers.This would give you scope to introduct tratior Guard into warbands,like the Blood Pact.

Any way just what i think

[Sons of Horus]

WORLD EATERS!!WORLD EATERS!!WORLD EATERS!!WORLD EATERS!!WORLD EATERS!!

 

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!

[Sception]

I like to see 2 new codices(plural?).

One dealing with Black Legion and all other Undivided warbands and Legions

And another one dealing with each God and there followers.This would give you scope to introduct tratior Guard into warbands,like the Blood Pact.

Any way just what i think

 

The problem with this is that you end up with one codex that hss several units and army-wide upgrades that only a single subfaction within the codex would use (remember that black legion style unified chaos is as different from Iron Warriors style pure unaligned as any of the cult legions are), and one codex that tries to fit four completely separate armies with no overlap at all in it. Neither is very elegant.

 

 

I still say one unified codex is the way to go, just one with more special rules, more units, more options, and simply more care then the current book. Such a codex would already have room to add enough to cover any of the legions and even have lost and the damned elements. Remember, the current loyalist marine book, the new trend setter for codeces, has about twice as much space in unit descriptions and army list as the current chaos book. Are you really telling me you couldn't reasonably fit the various factions of chaos in a single book with literally twice as much space to work with?

 

I'm not saying that there's no place for legion specific army lists. But that kind of variant thing is rightly assigned to forgeworld these days. I wouldn't mind, I would love in fact, to see a forgeworld list for any or all of the chaos legions, complete with forgeworld models for some interesting and esoteric new units. But I don't think that kind of subdivision can be supported in a regular 40k release, and I think the inevitable recombination under a single codex would leave chaos in an even bigger mess then it is now.

[Gargamel]

I see what you did there.

The question is, was it funny?

 

I suspect, if they do the Legions, it would probably be a single book (Codex: Traitor Legions). With such a book, they could have a basic Legion template and have the characters drive the actual differences in selection (similar to Codex: SM).

 

They could introduce a Codex for each Chaos God that included some of the lost units and incorporated both Daemons and Marines into the list. Then, an Undivided Legion Codex would include the lost units for those legions. Special characters or options on HQ characters would be the most likely way to differentiate between each list (similar to the Massive Traitor Legion codex).

 

That said, I would like to see the Alpha Legion move away from cultists and towards the inducted operative methods that have appeared in recent fluff. Cultists and Daemon Summons are for Word Bearers. Intrigue is more fun.

[Wolfthor]

Id like to see Alpha Legion or the Night Lords done first..

[Leonar the Nutter]

i would like World eaters BUT only if it was a proper codex, non of this PDF rip off that the blood angels got

[the jeske]

GW already told that BA were the first and last of PDF dexs .

 

But actually maybe an LatD would be nice , the way GW would desing the "cult" legions or undivided legions list would have 0 difference in game play then the stuff one can do with the dex have now . the only difference would only be the specials rules . so if they were good no one would play normal csm and on the other hand if there were no specials or the rules were weak , no new people would play the legion dex [and GW tries to not make stuff that doesnt sell].

[CastratedCow]

so if they were good no one would play normal csm and on the other hand if there were no specials or the rules were weak , no new people would play the legion dex [and GW tries to not make stuff that doesnt sell].

 

Like possessed? :)

[the jeske]

nope I ment codex . Since the time of Thorpe doing the DE[the old one] they try that to have something working in a dex . + the plastic possessed were a big improvment considering how the metal ones looked like and remember GW is a model selling company first , they dont care about crappy rules . In their world if you think that or this doesnt work your playfield will gladlly let you change the rules etc .

possessed as models sell ok . people use them conversion or to get cheap parts for IC or squad leaders . What GW tries to do is not to sell something like sob [old metal models , that will cost a lot to make and few will sell] or ogers [ugly models that no one plays + weak rules].

[eyescrossed]

I don't actually mind the Possessed - rules wise and models wise - they give you tonnes of spare bits to convert Lords and Champions, and Possessed get targetted by a lot of AP3 and lower weaponry, so their invulnerable save is useful.

[the jeske]

and Possessed get targetted by a lot of AP3 and lower weaponry, so their invulnerable save is useful.

possessed are killed by mulit shot weapons , no gamer worth his army list is going to shot low ap weapons at something with inv +5 or better , when he can shot at zerkers or pms , that are scoring and important to win. while slogging possessed are slow so can be avoided and rhino/LR mounted cost to much[and rhinos have a 1 turn down time , what doesnt help a hth only unit] . no possessed suck in every possible ways like dreads , spawn etc .

[Tigrinus]

Scrap the current codex and replace it with two: one for renegades, and one for the legions. The renegades would have less in the way of daemonic options but more in the way of more recent imperial technology. The opposite would be true of the legions.

That's actually an awesome idea. This very thing is what I picked up from the fluff.

[Rubrics Cube]

Scrap the current CSM Codex and make a new one to rule them all. Legions only.

 

I like this pawn's idea... ;)

 

In any case,we Thousand Sons will be there at somepoint,as our grand lord is messing with Gavin Thorpe's intentions,so we should be getting our own codex by 2012,tops...

 

EDIT:Actually,I like Castratedcow's idea more...I'd like to get that renegade filth away from us... :lol: *Leers at Huron*

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Exactly. Legions get the CSM Codex. Newbs get SM. If they play Apocalypse they can muck about with that which is the province of the true followers of the Gods- Daemons and such.

[Sception]

I agree and disagree. A new codex should focus on Chaos armies - recent renegades will always be better represented by their own books.

 

But I would like the book to acknowledge that the Legions aren't the same as they were when the Herecy ended. A lot changes in 10,000 years, and I'd like to see cultists, mutants, and newly created chaos marines (which could also represent units of recent renegades in chaos armies that wanted to include such). As for older or more established renegades, I personally think the Red Corsairs probably look more like the armies of chaos then the armies of the imperium at this point. And several of the Chaos Legions themselves were explicitly shattered at some point during their history in the Eye. Even if they re-formed afterwords (as many, if not most have explicitly done in the fluff), it would also make sense for there to be distinct chaos factions apart from the 'Big 9'.

[Sheff]

I say scrap the chaos space marine codex and chaos daemon codex and release one over priced hardback monstrosity called Codex:Chaos - bring back traitor guard, unify the daemon's rules and stats again, give everything its rightful place including apocalyspe units and rules etc. I'd happily pay £100 for that!

[djkest]

Based on what I have seen here, Iron Warriors and Night Lords seem to have the biggest following.

[Lay]

I don't see the need of separating Renegades from the Legions. Those introduced in the Codex don't strike me as "Chaos Light" or "too recent".

[Magnus Thane]

Agreed with Lay.

An updated Codex is good enough.

A few more pages is enough to add special tidbits for each Legion and you only need what... three pages for some more equipment?

I wouldn't mind seeing cultists and a limited entry on 'Traitor Guard' pop up.

It doesn't need to be extensive.

[Sception]

At the minimum:

 

-Several more special characters (one for each legion, plus some or all of bile, cypher, and huron would be awesome)

-Cult Upgrades for HQs; at least the mortal ones

-Cult Terminator squads.

-A cultist/traitor guard squad.

 

Of course, I'd also like to see a mutant squad, as distinct from cultists, and maybe something extra in fast attack, but that's not as necessary for representing the legions.

 

In terms of a simple 'list of squads', I think what we currently have plus cult upgrade heroes, separate cult terminator squads, and a cultist unit would be enough to reasonably represent the forces of the various chaos factions, especially if an option is provided to take undivided veterans as troops.

 

It wouldn't be a perfect representation of each of the Legion armies, but that kind of targeted sub-faction thing doesn't really work in 40k for armies other then loyalist marines. On the other hand, it is exactly the kind of thing that forgeworld is great at, which is, I think, where that kind of targeted subfaction list works best.