Imperialis_Dominatus Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 I agree and disagree. A new codex should focus on Chaos armies - recent renegades will always be better represented by their own books. Yeah, but such is the nature of GW's design process (release two books a year, new edition every four or five years) that not everyone's going to get a book. Thus I say less books. I say scrap the chaos space marine codex and chaos daemon codex and release one over priced hardback monstrosity called Codex:Chaos - bring back traitor guard, unify the daemon's rules and stats again, give everything its rightful place including apocalyspe units and rules etc. I'd happily pay £100 for that! And game balance goes completely out the window. :) I don't see the need of separating Renegades from the Legions. Those introduced in the Codex don't strike me as "Chaos Light" or "too recent". But then there's all these threads complaining about 'why can't I have my ubergrit CSM use drop pods' or 'why can't I Lash someone into range of my six Assault Cannon speeders' and so on. If they're going to include renegades, at the very least, the Legions shouldn't take the backseat to the guys who are, while not necessarily Chaos Lite, certainly have a heck of a lot less calories than the Heresy originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 by "their own book" I meant the book representing the faction they came from. For instance, recent space marine renegades are better represented by the space marine book, recent traitor guard by the traitor guard book. A chaos book should represent forces of chaos who have been such for some time. Chaos armies as something distinct from disgruntled imperials. I haven't heard complaints about not lashing into speeders. That sounds rather exaggerated, there. The drop pod thing - well, they're in the fluff, that's how space marines always fought, even before the heresy. As long as the GW design philosophy with the codex is to put the 'space marines' fisrt, and the 'chaos' a distant, distant second, people are going to wonder why there aren't more direct equivalents to the space marine book. That's exactly why the overemphasis on Space Marines (particularly recent loyalists turned traitor), and the lack of emphasis on 'chaos' is a bad idea, and bad for the codex. As for balance going out the window in a big book, it doesn't have to be that big. The current loyalist book really does have near about twice the special characters, twice the units, twice the wargear, and twice the special rules, comfortably lounging in twice the number of pages as the Chaos book dedicates to rules. A new chaos book that included that much extra stuff would have room for cultists, mutants, aligned daemons, cult terminators, cult upgrades for heroes, a special character fitting the theme of each legion.... all the things you'd need to make a codex perfectly capable of representing any of the chaos legions, or established non-legion chaos marine armies (such as the Coursairs), or even a decent impression of a lost and the damned army with chaos marine support & command. There doesn't need to be two or more books. it can be done in one. The current book really doesn't, but that doesn't make it impossible. The current book looks and feels like it was made in a few weeks, under a totally minimalist philosophy, and neither the time dedicated nor the philosophy followed were up to the task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheff Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I say scrap the chaos space marine codex and chaos daemon codex and release one over priced hardback monstrosity called Codex:Chaos - bring back traitor guard, unify the daemon's rules and stats again, give everything its rightful place including apocalyspe units and rules etc. I'd happily pay £100 for that! And game balance goes completely out the window. :huh: It wouldn't be unbalanced if it was done right (although I doubt that would happen), sure Chaos would have a huge choice of options, but as long as it was pointed appropriately with a bit of time and care put in I don't see it being a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastratedCow Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 as long as it was pointed appropriately with a bit of time and care put in Considering what's happened with the current codex and last one, I don't think that's likely to happen. --- If the legions and renegades each had their own codices, any number of options would become available. Renegades could get: *from their recently disowned brethren: assault cannons, landspeeders, sane dreads, small regiments of IG, some IG artillery *from the newly adopted powers of Chaos: icons, generic daemons, the more unstable gifts of Chaos (such as mutants, spawn, and sorcerers that easily fry themselves but wham-bang-sizzle powers) They would not have access to things that fluff might dictate strong faith and strict adherence (either to Chaos or the IA) as a requirement. Legions could get: cult troops (but no more of that mix-and-match BS, unless its for BL and then they'd probably have to be elites), cult termies, cult everything, REAL daemons, special legion rules (although ideally not restricted by characters like the SM dex), sorcerers that actually reflect their strong devotion to the powers of Chaos, defilers, more unique variations on currently standard vehicles (so we can get special DAEMON land raiders, dreads that are different without being uselessly insane, and other fun goodies) I'm not sure where Bile would go... maybe he'd be a floater between the two codices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I don't see that working. For one, your renegades book would basically be 'codex space marines and codex guard lumped together'. Not only is that redundant in terms of having yet another codex covering the same sorts of units, it's not so representative of the fluff. If anything, very recently turned space marine or guard detatchments are less likely to work together rather then more, as they are organizationally distinct in modern 40k. And the Legion codex would still have exactly the same problems or unifying several armies that are distinct in the minds of players under a single codex list. And by having cult everything, you're talking about a codex with too many units even by the standards set by the new loyalist book, and yet still devided into five parts THAT MUST NEVER EVER EVER TOUCH. Five completely distinct, non-overlapping codeces crammed into one book wouldn't be a solution, it would be a fiasco. The best course for chaos, again, is a single army list that does a reasonable impression of various forces of chaos, allowing for themed lists but not forcing particular themes down a player's throat. More targeted 'Legion Specific' army lists would be more the province of Forgeworld and their Index Astartes books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosReigns Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 The best course for chaos, again, is a single army list that does a reasonable impression of various forces of chaos, allowing for themed lists but not forcing particular themes down a player's throat. I disagree, if there's anything that I find offensive it's the current mix and match system that Chaos has now. The Gods hate each other and have for millenia. That hatred extends to their servants and like it or not it has been established that the Traitor Legions frequently fight against one another in the Eye when there aren't any Black Crusades to be launched. I think that at the very least that if your commander is marked then you can take only one choice from an opposing god for each section of the FOC (excluding HQ). Otherwise why the hell wouldn't you just take the best options from each god. Either that or, as I stated on Warseer, allow commanders to take Legionary upgrades (which should be limited to 0-1 per army to avoid a situation similar to the current SM dex). If you want to play World Eaters make your commander a World Eaters Lord and get some nifty special rules and a cool extra piece of wargear or whatever. If you want to mix and match your Chaos Marines buy a Black Legion Lord and mix and match to your heart's content. Mix-match should NOT be the bog standard however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastratedCow Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I don't see that working. For one, your renegades book would basically be 'codex space marines and codex guard lumped together'. Not only is that redundant in terms of having yet another codex covering the same sorts of units, it's not so representative of the fluff. If anything, very recently turned space marine or guard detatchments are less likely to work together rather then more, as they are organizationally distinct in modern 40k. Well, in a sense, you're right. Codex: Renegades would be a hodge-podge of C:SM, C:IG, and C:CSM... which is pretty much exactly how I envision the organization of a 'typical' Renegade force. But the key differences (and I do believe, if done correctly, it would be distinct enough from the parent codices) would be in the restrictions and allowances placed on units from the different codices in the FOC (not to mention the Chaos powers granted to some of those units). Unfortunately, you're wrong about renegade guard units. The Eye of Terror codex showed traitor guard units working directly under the command of individual marines (and those marines didn't even necessarily have to be lieutenants ... or lords). And the Legion codex would still have exactly the same problems or unifying several armies that are distinct in the minds of players under a single codex list. And by having cult everything, you're talking about a codex with too many units even by the standards set by the new loyalist book, and yet still devided into five parts THAT MUST NEVER EVER EVER TOUCH. Five completely distinct, non-overlapping codeces crammed into one book wouldn't be a solution, it would be a fiasco. The 3.5 dex wasn't a fiasco, just a little poorly balanced, and it managed to do exactly that. When the new codex flogging thread was still up, I saw many posts by different members reiterating the same viewpoint, that the layout of the old dex was fine, it just needed some tweaking. That's what I was referring to when I said 'cult everything;' I didn't mean a separate entry for each unit of each allegiance, but rather a reimplementation of the marks system of the last codex. The best course for chaos, again, is a single army list that does a reasonable impression of various forces of chaos, allowing for themed lists but not forcing particular themes down a player's throat. The problem with that is the fluff for Chaos. We either have to be told point-blank that we MUST use counts-as (which, in my opinion, is lazy and asking for trouble in most cases) to account for devoted followers of gods that hate each other working peacefully together (among other fluff-related problems, like restricted access to recent Imperial tech), or we'll get a codex like the current one, which leaves 8 out of the 9 original traitor legions out in the cold. It'd be damned-near impossible to have one codex that can accurately represent both renegades and traitor legions in the same book without resorting to counts-as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidren2401 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 It'd be damned-near impossible to have one codex that can accurately represent both renegades and traitor legions in the same book without resorting to counts-as. Quoted for truth. If I was going to do the next chaos dex I would take a leaf from the loyalist's book in that I would have special HQs that impart special rules to the force they lead. But instead of inventing a ream of new special characters I would just leave it generic, i.e. I wouldn't bring Honsou in as a special character but I would bring in a "Warsmith" upgrade for lords, and 7 other lord upgrades to fairly represent the other legions (Thousand Sons don't need one, sorcerer HQs with the mark of tzeentch make fine sorcerer lords) and their spiritual successors, like a Plauge Lord who could lead a Death Gaurd army or a Lords of Decay army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julgolax Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I want to do Thousand Sons, but just the codex wouldnt be enough, we need full on conversion boxes for all 8 legions, just like loyalists should get conversion boxes for all 8 of their legendary chapters. Thats just me of course, GW is far too lazy to do that right. Thousand Sons or Word Bearers first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I HATE ;) the SC change army rules of the new s/m dex. I've been playing BL for 10 years and have never used abby, I wouldn't want to have to take abby to play BL. Why is pedro cantor now in every s/m army requardless of chapter ?? but that's a who other topic. In C:csm 3.5 it took all of 1-2 pages for each legion to give each legion distinct rules. So why do some act like it would take a 500 pg volume to give each legion there own rules ?? It wouldn't be that hard to have WB's rules (some pros and some cons), DG rules (some pros and cons) etc and still let players pick their own HQ's. - As for this "each legion needs their own dex stuff, think about it... GW decides to give all 11 legions their own dex...one chaos dex every other your or so (if we're lucky)..20 bloody years to get all the chaos legion out. - All the legions could be covered in great detail with their own rules in a much smaller dex then the new s/m one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vandael Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Just to stay on topic, I would like to see an IW codex. But as we alll know GW will never go into the trouble of releasing seperate books on the (traitor) legions. Because they will never keep up with the new releases of the rule books, wich would leave army's unbalanced. Here are some ideas what the new CSM codex should need in my opinion: - More psychic powers, come on sorcerers have been longer around than libies so they should get a wider range of powers to choose from. - More aligned psychic powers. - If you are playing a cult specific army you should be able to get aligned deamons for that army (otherwise just generic). - More cult & "normal" CSM characters to choose from with special abilities that are balanced pointswise. - In failing the above give the Lords options to buy special abilities & wargear for your army. (orbital strike, bikers as troops, conferring fearless to the unit he leads etc.) - The ability to have sane dreadnoughts (if you pay more points), in the previous edition I'd give my dreads deamonic possesion just to keep them sane. Nowedays they are collecting dust. - Some new and shiny deamonengines. Meanwhile we just should be creative in "counts as", modelling and tactics. -> Play CSM and make use of al the glory of whta the Chaos Gods have to offer. -> Play SM that turned traitor and use your imperial stuff in the name of Chaos. -> Wait another 10K untill Warhammer 50K when all is well (or not). At least they should have perfected the gamemechanics by then. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsuicidekingx Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I have never understood why a "proper" chaos codex seems so elusive to GW. Even back to second edition when i started, they always had a very generic ultramarine codex and then little supplements for space wolves or the angels of death codex (two armies in one!) The new space marine codex with traits and the like could provide a very viable template for a new chaos codex... they just can't go at it half way like they did with the last chaos update. If you think about it, the space marine codex gives the rules for 6 or 7 different chapters just by adding in the traits rule. (even more if you count the "counts-as" rule....***shakes fist***) I always thought that they spent far too much space on the cult units when those cult units wouldn't even be in every army. They really could cover the entirety of the renegade legions in a codex that is roughly the same size as the loyalist version. Then cult marine books could be done in much the same way as the blood angels E-dex. So, While i am a die hard Night Lords player, I say, no need for a separate codex for each legion, just actually take the time to do a proper chaos dex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Word Bearers, with real daemons in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastratedCow Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 - The ability to have sane dreadnoughts (if you pay more points), in the previous edition I'd give my dreads deamonic possesion just to keep them sane. Nowedays they are collecting dust. Er, well, let's see here... A Furioso dread (the best equivalent to our CC-oriented dread) costs the same amount of points, can be easily controlled by keeping a character close by, and, failing that, will probably be running his red, metal butt towards something you'd want him running towards anyway. A multi-melta dread from C:SM only costs five points more, is completely controllable, and has a stormbolter instead of our TL bolter. Looking at both of those comparisons, I think, if we're given the option of having a sane dread, the insane version should cost less rather than the sane version costing more. Meanwhile we just should be creative in "counts as", modelling and tactics. And lemme just fiddle with this statement a moment... "Meanwhile we just have to be creative in "counts as", modelling and tactics." We have to, but we shouldn't. They really could cover the entirety of the renegade legions in a codex that is roughly the same size as the loyalist version. Then cult marine books could be done in much the same way as the blood angels E-dex. Uh, I think you've got this one backwards. Why should the cult legions, the first and most important marine followers of Chaos, be relegated to the dismal realm of soft-copy codices? If any of our stuff has to go that way, it should be the renegades that get shoved off paper and into pixels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Thane Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Actually Cult Legions he means are: - World Eaters - Death Guard - Emperor's Children - Thousand Sons -> Those four are ideal for Blood Angel like updates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsuicidekingx Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Actually Cult Legions he means are:- World Eaters - Death Guard - Emperor's Children - Thousand Sons -> Those four are ideal for Blood Angel like updates. Exactly what i meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastratedCow Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Actually Cult Legions he means are:- World Eaters - Death Guard - Emperor's Children - Thousand Sons -> Those four are ideal for Blood Angel like updates. Exactly what i meant. ...and that's what I thought you meant. You mean those four legions, alumni of the University of Chaos, Eye of Terror Campus inaugural class, should not even be mentioned in the Chaos yearbook, while members of the newly founded Renegade Alpha Pi Epsilon fraternity become the sole focus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsuicidekingx Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Actually Cult Legions he means are:- World Eaters - Death Guard - Emperor's Children - Thousand Sons -> Those four are ideal for Blood Angel like updates. Exactly what i meant. ...and that's what I thought you meant. You mean those four legions, alumni of the University of Chaos, Eye of Terror Campus inaugural class, should not even be mentioned in the Chaos yearbook, while members of the newly founded Renegade Alpha Pi Epsilon fraternity become the sole focus? Not at all what i meant. There are more than just those 4 legions that turned to chaos at the heresy. many of the renegade legions could be lumped into a single dex with the chaos undivided legions because of their similarities. The only reason i chose those 4 to each have their own e-dex is that they are the most customized legions that would require extra care to be taken to describe their numbers. this is just my opinion though man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Alpha Legion, as they're the Traitor Legion I'm planning on starting eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I would support 3 new codices for Chaos. 1 for undivided legions, 1 for the cults and1 for those Renegades and maybe stick the LatDin all 3 with limitations for the legions. Of course those that play renegades would lose the chance to play Abby, Khârn and co. , but maybe gain some newer gear characters of there own, something closer to the C:SM while the Legions get more fluff, more access to certain items, BL Defilers, EC Sonic weapons, IW Eath Shaker Cannons and WE there old Chain axe rule and maybe other upgrades. If GW brought out Upgrade spures for these as well, I expect they would make there money back. As for which Legions I would like to see come out first, if they were to be done separately, then I would say a well done 1k sons. They never seem to get much love, and it would make them shine for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Scrap the current codex and replace it with two: one for renegades, and one for the legions. The renegades would have less in the way of daemonic options but more in the way of more recent imperial technology. The opposite would be true of the legions. I like the idea of keeping the "renegades" around in some fashion. A legions book+a renegades book would be great. I know we are just wish listing here, but i think an undivided book done first is usually where its at. A book with abbadon and other neutrals rallying everyone together for a big war. That would be my vote at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Dave Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 i'd go WB or WE cause they rock(not saying the others don't :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Talon Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Either that or, as I stated on Warseer, allow commanders to take Legionary upgrades (which should be limited to 0-1 per army to avoid a situation similar to the current SM dex). If you want to play World Eaters make your commander a World Eaters Lord and get some nifty special rules and a cool extra piece of wargear or whatever. If you want to mix and match your Chaos Marines buy a Black Legion Lord and mix and match to your heart's content. Mix-match should NOT be the bog standard however. I completely agree, even it was as stupid as say, give your lord/daemon prince "World Eaters Legionaire" -> Only units with Icon of Khorne or Mark Khorne may be taken, but mark/icon of khorne is half price. And give em a few special rules to go with it. (like +1 strength, can re-roll to wound on the first round of combat or something like that) Think i got a good 1 for Word Bearers -> "Dark Apostle" Thats the word bearers leaders right? -> anyway dark apostle, only units with mark of chaos glory, icon of chaos glory, or no mark/icon may be taken -> you may use daemons from codex Chaos Daemons as allies. But I think fluff should focus more on the legions than renegades, heck my chaos army are renegades and i said screw fluff, they turned renegade when they found out how much fun killing stuff in the name of khorne is, and because they think WE are totally badass they modelled their chapter after them. (so no land speeders or the other fancy loyalist crap) Other than that Codex: Chaos Imperial Guard would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igotsmeakabob!! Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 Aren't Alpha Legion players missing a large chunk of their armies now? IIRC, they made extensive use of cultists. I've heard that you can use Lost and the Damned in friendly games, but Tournies are a no-no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maladon Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 just make the four cults into dexs, but take away the dual DP spam, its getting old! as to the undivided legions, WD rules would be fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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