Help Against Nids

[Tyron]

Hi all,

 

I will be facing a Nid army soon, the game will be 1500pts.

 

I am undecided between these two armies which I have used as an all comers list;

 

Epistolary 175

moa, ta, jump pack

 

6 Stenguard 150

 

Razorback 40

 

10 Scouts 180

9 sniper rifles, heavy bolter, camo cloaks

 

10 Tactical Marines 190

lascannon, flamer, combi-plasma

 

10 Tactical Marines 195

lascannon, melta gun, combi-plasma

 

3 Attack Bikes 120

 

10 Assault Marines 235

2 flamers, power fist

 

Vindicator 115

 

Thunderfire Cannon 100

 

( I could remove the combi-plasmas and take Shrike)

 

or

 

Kayvaan Shrike 195

 

10 Assault Marines 235

2 flamers, power fist

 

3 Attack Bikes 120

 

3 Attack Bikes 120

 

10 Scouts 180

9 sniper rifles, heavy bolter, camo cloaks

 

10 Tactical Marines 170

heavy bolter, flamer

 

10 Tactical Marines 180

lascannon, flamer

 

Whirlewind 85

 

Vindicator 115

 

Thunderfire Cannon 100

 

From what I can remember he has a flyrant that shoots a lot, another tyrant without wings that shoots a lot, a fex with a big gun, 2 thropes, 3 warriors, 2x10 gaunts, a unit of genestealers and 2x10 hormogaunts (the 12” assault ones) I think he may have another fex but I can’t remember.

 

I haven’t played Nids in 5th ed and I would really appreciate some advice on how to beat this army with one of my chosen lists.

 

Many thanks

[Olesh]

As a Tyranid player, I'm naturally hesitant to inform players exactly how to pick apart my preferred army, but let's go on an individual breakdown of models first, and move to tactics.

 

Hive Tyrant - The most popular (and, in my opinion, most effective) weapons combination for a hive tyrant is two twin-linked devourers, which is what it sounds like he has. With Toxin Sacs (which adds +1S to the hive tyrant and therefore his weapons), he's firing 12 shots at S6, twin-linked, reroll wounds. This averages about ten wounds against T4 (i.e., most your guys) and you'll fail three armor saves on average. Wings just let it get into shooty range quicker (18"), and cover more of the board when he has to. He's going to try and keep them in your face as much as possible, and they're a big threat that's not easy to kill.

Kill them with: Plasma, melta, demolisher templates, or lascannons. They almost always have a 2+ save, and at T6 you can find better things to shoot at with heavy bolters, at least in the early game. Massed sniper rifles work too. Do not let it assault a vehicle. Power fists will kill them, if you can lure him into assaulting through cover.

 

Carnifex - Similar to the hive tyrant, these guys are the backbone of any tyranid list. They really don't inflict that many wounds in shooting or kill that many vehicles, but that's not their job. They soak up a lot of firepower and rip open vehicles like tin cans. They'll also tie up marines in a protracted assault very nicely, so don't let them do that.

Kill them with: The same things you use to kill a hive tyrant. If he assaults a vehicle you can kiss it goodbye. Carnifexes are one of the few semi-reliable ways to kill land raiders or monoliths. Terminators eat these guys in assault.

 

Genestealers - If these guys get into an assault in decent quantity, you can kiss your squad goodbye. If they have extended carapace, heavy bolters will still mow them down. They have a nasty habit of outflanking, and they can get lucky and break vehicles due to rending and quantity of attacks. If they don't have extended carapace, bolters will shred them. Flamers work nicely too.

Kill them with: Bolters, if they don't have extended carapace. Heavy bolters if they do. You've got better things to fire melta or plasmaguns at, but you can drop a whirlwind or demolisher pie plate on these guys and make your opponent cry if you want. Power weapons will save your butt in an assault, but you have to survive to make use of it. Force them to charge you in cover, or charge them yourself.

 

Hormagaunts - These guys are seriously a joke in 5th edition. Keep them away from your scouts, and regular bolter fire will kill them. If they assault you unsupported, they'll probably all die.

 

Tyranid Warriors - These guys are either close combat beasts or shooting. If they're close combat beasts, they can have a 12" charge, so look out. If they're shooting, they're going to be using S6 template weapons, so stay spread out.

Kill them with: The same things you kill genestealers with. They're 2 wound models, though, so they're a bit more durable. With only three models, though, they're not a threat. Two or three heavy bolters should wipe the squad before they ever get into shooting.

 

Gaunts - These guys are cheap, and are going to be providing a 4+ cover save to the tyranid warriors and possibly the genestealers. They die to everything in droves.

Kill them with: A wet hanky

 

Zoanthropes - These guys are not cheap, they can have the only AP3 shooting marines have, and also have the valuable valuable Synapse that lets your opponent control his gaunts and hormagaunts. At 2 wounds and a 2+/6++ save, they don't go down easy.

Kill them with: Anything AP2, or power weapons.

 

So, on to tactics:

 

I personally use a formation that I find to be rather effective. I put my gaunts up front, to provide cover for my tyranid warriors. I put my monstrous creatures behind my tyranid warriors (the warriors are big enough to actually cover more than 50% of the MCs). I outflank my genestealers, too, so they come in and assault up to 18" off one (or both) table sides without taking reserves.

 

This is a brittle formation; it's easily cracked if you know what to do, but most people don't apply target priority correctly. Many tyranid players use this or a variation on this, so it's important to know what to do to break it. It's a risk I take.

 

However you deploy, try to force anything assaulting your models to move through cover to do it. Few players spend the money for flesh hooks (tyranid frag grenades) and those genestealers are a lot less scary attacking at I1. Your thunderfire cannon should be in cover, reinforced, and near the center of the table (so no genestealers come off the table side and eat it). The Thunderfire Cannon will chew through almost everything.

 

If you go with the first army, combat squad your marines. You want bolters shooting at one thing, and the lascannon shooting at another at least early on. You're more vulnerable to assaults, but you shouldn't get a first turn assault if you deploy smart.

 

Step one for breaking this army is to peel away the gaunt screen. Yes, I said shoot at the gaunts (and/or hormagaunts) first. It's important. If the gaunts are screening something, it's to prevent you from easily killing what's behind it. Take your shooting one squad at a time, starting with the things that are least able to wound the models behind. The order of priority for shooting on turn one is, therefore:

1.) Anything not protected by the gaunt/hormagaunt screen.

2.) The Gaunt/Hormagaunt Screen

3.) Full or near-full strength genestealers squads that will assault a squad turn two.

4.) Tyranid Warriors

5.) Hive Tyrants

5.) Carnifexes

6.) Zoanthropes

 

If you get the chance to fire a lascannon at a zoanthrope/carnifex/hive tyrant, or a heavy bolter into tyranid warriors who don't have cover, do it. Otherwise, start with your thunderfire cannon, bolters, and bolt pistols and start peeling away the gaunt screen one at a time. Ideally, you want to widen a hole through which your heavy weapons can see the tyranid warriors and all the other stuff.

 

Genestealers will mess you up if they get into assault with any kind of strength, though, so make sure you're not within 18" of them first turn unless you're in cover and they don't have frag grenades. Ideally, you'll open up a wide enough hole to deny them cover saves and then fire a heavy bolter (that scout squad would do nicely for that purpose, plus sniper rifles.) or two.

 

Also, your assault marines are there to die gloriously in this fight. Throw them into the genestealers, throw them into the gaunts, hormagaunts, tyranid warriors... anything to bog down the horde for a turn. If you send that squad in, and can fire bolt pistols and two flamers into a genestealer squad before assaulting, you'll win the assault. I promise. And I guarantee that you'll shred gaunts, hormagaunts, and non-CC warriors just as easily.

 

The basic idea, in short, is to peel off one layer of cover at a time. Gaunts and hormagaunts are not a threat, but if you focus on them early, before the hive tyrants and carnifexes and tyranid warriors get close enough to really accomplish anything, you don't have to worry about them later.

 

If you force your opponent to scoot from cover to cover, you've prevented him from moving on you at full speed and you should be able to concentrate fire on the bigger priority bugs (one at a time!) with alarming gusto.

 

If your opponent STARTS scurrying from cover to cover, and is not using his smaller bugs to screen his bigger bugs, then focus on the bigger bugs first, but try and wipe out the squads closest to you whenever possible. Bolters kill little bugs dead.

[Ethrion]

I have fought against 'nids 3 times now and each one was a victory for my smurfs. The first nid army was pretty balanced with a little bit of everything. The third time it was carnifexes (5 in all + hive tyrant) and genestealers everywhere!

 

- Overall I would recommend staying as far away from them for as long as possible (you need all the time you can get because those 'nids will be on you very quickly indeed!).

- Focus all your heavy weapon fire on one carnifex, hive tyrant etc. and make sure you take it out before moving on to the next target.

- The only time you actually want to CQC with a tyranid is if you have assault terminators and certainly if you have Lysander (in my last battle Lysander personally took out 3 carnifexes with 5 wounds each and 3 raveners).

- You want blast templates everywhere; plasma cannons are ok but ideally whirlwinds and especially vindicators to prevent his carnifexes and big creatures from getting an armour save.

- While it might seem having lots of lascannons everywhere might be a good idea I'm not so sure. Afterall, a carnifex has 4-5 wounds and you're not always going to hit/wound it every turn and a game lasts on average 6 turns. That's not enough time to kill enough of them. Im not saying don't have any lascannon, but it might be better to equip units like tactical squads with heavy bolters.

- A lot depends on the mission type, if its an objective based game then target his troop choices and try and annihilate them (unless he has 'without number' then you want to try and leave 1 model in the squad alive and only kill it right at the very end so that he doesn't have time to bring the entire unit back again).

- Something I have discovered is that at the start of the game the tyranid army looks mighty frightening but you soon discover that its squishy enough and as long as you focus your fire and target the units that your weapons can definitely cut down, you'll be fine.

- And now for my most important thing I have discovered: ALWAYS TAKE STERNGUARD AGAINST TYRANIDS! In all three battles I have fought, this unit has always performed consantly above and beyond the call of duty. The Hellfire rounds are perfect: wounding any target on a 2+. They will still get a cover save but outside of cover it's the best choice for taking down monstrous creatures or any models with a 2+ armor or 5+ invulnerable save. My sternguard did far better at killing carnifexes than lascannon shots because basically the hellfire rounds have the same stats as a lascannon and you can rapid fire with them too. If you can, try and get 10 sternguard and combat squad them.

 

Anyway, sorry for going on and on, it's probably kind of a lot to read. But these are just my thoughts and things I have discovered against tyranids.

[Frosty the Pyro]

- And now for my most important thing I have discovered: ALWAYS TAKE STERNGUARD AGAINST TYRANIDS! In all three battles I have fought, this unit has always performed consantly above and beyond the call of duty. The Hellfire rounds are perfect: wounding any target on a 2+. They will still get a cover save but outside of cover it's the best choice for taking down monstrous creatures or any models with a 2+ armor or 5+ invulnerable save. My sternguard did far better at killing carnifexes than lascannon shots because basically the hellfire rounds have the same stats as a lascannon and you can rapid fire with them too. If you can, try and get 10 sternguard and combat squad them.

Um they still get their armor save vs hellfire its only ap5, scout snipers outperform sterngard vs TMC with 2+ saves, if you thnk helfire is basicly same stats as lascannons you where misusing the rules sorry. And if the helfire is not within rapid fire range scout snipres outperform vs 3+ saves also. Also rapid fire range frequently translates to charged next turn. Stern will do great shooting geatstealers (Kraken bolts will even ignor extended carapace), and dragon fire can ignore cover (if the wariors dont have extended carapace, or if the bugs are hopping from bush to bush). But if your bringing stern to shoot the big bugs, you have better options.

[Tyron]

I would like to hank both of you for your lengthy and insightful replies.

 

Given the choice of the two army lists which do you think would be best to take, I'm thinking with Shrike I can infiltrate the assault marines to take out the most threatening unit and with the fleet roll will allow me to avoid his units.

 

He always boasts about is hormogaunts getting in assault in the first turn and holding up my units so others can get into assault. So should I shoot these first?

[Ethrion]

- And now for my most important thing I have discovered: ALWAYS TAKE STERNGUARD AGAINST TYRANIDS! In all three battles I have fought, this unit has always performed consantly above and beyond the call of duty. The Hellfire rounds are perfect: wounding any target on a 2+. They will still get a cover save but outside of cover it's the best choice for taking down monstrous creatures or any models with a 2+ armor or 5+ invulnerable save. My sternguard did far better at killing carnifexes than lascannon shots because basically the hellfire rounds have the same stats as a lascannon and you can rapid fire with them too. If you can, try and get 10 sternguard and combat squad them.

Um they still get their armor save vs hellfire its only ap5, scout snipers outperform sterngard vs TMC with 2+ saves, if you thnk helfire is basicly same stats as lascannons you where misusing the rules sorry. And if the helfire is not within rapid fire range scout snipres outperform vs 3+ saves also. Also rapid fire range frequently translates to charged next turn. Stern will do great shooting geatstealers (Kraken bolts will even ignor extended carapace), and dragon fire can ignore cover (if the wariors dont have extended carapace, or if the bugs are hopping from bush to bush). But if your bringing stern to shoot the big bugs, you have better options.

You are totally correct. I wrote my reply at work and I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been. I certainly don't think hellfire rounds are exactly like lascannons, I just mean to hit and wound they are the same. of course they will still get their armour save, its just you are maximizing wounds and therefore the chances of some 1s coming up is greatly increased. That's all I meant. I should have been clearer that yes, they will still get the save, hellfire is just much better at guaranteeing wounds.

 

However, I have to disagree about snipers being better. They require a 4+ to hit and a 4+ to wound as opposed to a 3+ and a 2+. Granted they have a better range but TBH I would still go with sternguard and hellfire. Also, while yes rapid fire does mean being charged next turn, you really should have units ready to intercept or at least sacrifice themselves and protect the sternguard as they back off a little bit. The meat shield will die but the sternguard will yet again be ready to open fire next turn.

 

This is only my opinion from the battles I have fought recently against tyranids but I can say with total conviction that even against carnifexes sternguard performed amazingly well. I think during the course of the battle two 5 man squads must have inflicted about 7 or 8 wounds on carnifexes, and that was with there being 5 of them on the battlefield (all with 5 wounds each). Lascannons are also good options but more and more I have been discovering that sheer weight of dice outweighs 1 powerful shot. Roll enough dice and enough 1s will come up on average as opposed to 1 shot that might get a wound.

 

As for which list, I would personally take a mix of both if possible. Try and take your whirlwind, vindicator, tac marines, sternguard and some assault marines. basically camp as far from the nids as possible and try to thin out their numbers. It isn't a question of if, but when they reach you. So you need to have some squads ready to sacrifice themselves to preserve your shooty units. CQC scouts are very good for this, as they will make a decent account of themselves 3 attacks on the charge and they have the same WS, S and T as a marine. You can also use assault marines to protect your shooty units but they are obviously more costly to sacrifice.

 

If he can get his gaunts into cqc on the first turn then yes, target them as a priority. Best thing you can do is split every squad into combat squads. That way you can lose 5 units for the greater good and be ready next turn to gun the nids down. Since he can't consolidate into a fresh combat he will be a sitting duck for you to bring all your guns to bear on him out in the open.

[Frosty the Pyro]

You are totally correct. I wrote my reply at work and I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been. I certainly don't think hellfire rounds are exactly like lascannons, I just mean to hit and wound they are the same. of course they will still get their armour save, its just you are maximizing wounds and therefore the chances of some 1s coming up is greatly increased. That's all I meant. I should have been clearer that yes, they will still get the save, hellfire is just much better at guaranteeing wounds.

Ah I see, fully understandable then.

 

However, I have to disagree about snipers being better. They require a 4+ to hit and a 4+ to wound as opposed to a 3+ and a 2+. Granted they have a better range but TBH I would still go with sternguard and hellfire. Also, while yes rapid fire does mean being charged next turn, you really should have units ready to intercept or at least sacrifice themselves and protect the sternguard as they back off a little bit. The meat shield will die but the sternguard will yet again be ready to open fire next turn.

 

This is only my opinion from the battles I have fought recently against tyranids but I can say with total conviction that even against carnifexes sternguard performed amazingly well. I think during the course of the battle two 5 man squads must have inflicted about 7 or 8 wounds on carnifexes, and that was with there being 5 of them on the battlefield (all with 5 wounds each). Lascannons are also good options but more and more I have been discovering that sheer weight of dice outweighs 1 powerful shot. Roll enough dice and enough 1s will come up on average as opposed to 1 shot that might get a wound.

 

Actualy this is why snipers outpreform, though here I should have been more clear, as I ment sniper scouts outpreform per point than stern hellfire, as you get almost twice as many scouts as you do stern, when combined with rending you combine your sixes with their ones to have a greater impact. I crunched the numbers in a different thread but its comes out to scouts being about 11% more killy per point than rapidfire stern vs 2+ saves, dont remember if I calculated warpfeild 6++ into that but i think I did. rapid Stern were about 44% than scouts vs 3+ however if the stern didnt get to rapid fire the scouts where 38% better than stern. I did not calculate cover into that (cover would reduce scout effectiveness as it can be taken against a rend).

As for which list, I would personally take a mix of both if possible. Try and take your whirlwind, vindicator, tac marines, sternguard and some assault marines. basically camp as far from the nids as possible and try to thin out their numbers. It isn't a question of if, but when they reach you. So you need to have some squads ready to sacrifice themselves to preserve your shooty units. CQC scouts are very good for this, as they will make a decent account of themselves 3 attacks on the charge and they have the same WS, S and T as a marine. You can also use assault marines to protect your shooty units but they are obviously more costly to sacrifice.

 

If he can get his gaunts into cqc on the first turn then yes, target them as a priority. Best thing you can do is split every squad into combat squads. That way you can lose 5 units for the greater good and be ready next turn to gun the nids down. Since he can't consolidate into a fresh combat he will be a sitting duck for you to bring all your guns to bear on him out in the open.

 

This is very true, combat squading is generaly the way to go and nids hate it when they kill an enemy in the first assult round, I have a freind who referes to this as ablative squads :D. just be aware if you roll up anihilation, each combat squad is a KP.