rcm2216 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I am trying to discover some new tactics with a new army and list I am trying to create against a certain Nid build. It is a mix of Zilla and Horde build. One of the best players in town plays this following list with great success first because it is a good list and second because he is a good strategist. I have played him twice and we are one for one, but he has massacred everyone else with the list. I beat him once with a three war walker squad, three wave serpent with bright lances loaded with dire avengers and fire dragon list and two autarchs on bikes. I lost with my three wraith lord, avatar, and harlequin squad list. However, now I am playing my marines again now. His 1,850 list is as follows: Hive Tyrant devourers, 3 guards Hive Tyrant devourers, 3 guards 10 Genestealers 8 Guants without number 8 Guants without number 26 Guants 26 Guants Fex with barbed strangler Fex with barbed strangler Fex with barbed strangler Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon My list is still a work in progress, but the following is in place so far: Captain on bike full bike squad with attack bike full bike squad with attack bike tactical squad with rhino vindicator predator- las cannon, heavy bolter predator- las cannon, heavy bolter land speeders typhoon squad x2 It was apparent the first time that I shot him up and destroyed his defensive screening system he was using to keep his tyrants alive. The close combat tactic did not not work because I lacked the numbers to hurt him enough before he overwhelmed me with numbers. That was with Eldar however. How do I win with Marines against this his list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escaflowne Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Double post for some reason. Gomen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escaflowne Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I have yet to play our Nids player using the 5th Edition rules but in 4th I useda combo of Lascannons and Heavy Bolters. He liked getting Tyrants with guards, giving his Fexes a 2+ save, and giving his Zoans Warp Field. So I generally consider missile launchers almost useless. Of course Heavy Bolters were great for wiping out the hordes of chafe he brought and ripping up his warriors. Kill the Synapse and they fall apart. Now that we're in the era of 5th Edition this is roughly what I'm thinking of using: Dev Squad - Sgt. with 7 marines, 4 w/ Lascannon Dev Squad - Sgt. with 7 marines, 4 w/ Lascannon Whirlwind Tac Squad - Sgt. with 9 marines, Powerfist Sgt, 1 w/Heavy Bolter, 1 w/Melta, Razorback w/Lascannon Tac Squad - Sgt. with 9 marines, Powerfist Sgt, 1 w/Heavy Bolter, 1 w/Melta, Razorback w/Lascannon Tac Squad - Sgt. with 9 marines, Powerfist Sgt, 1 w/Heavy Bolter, 1 w/Melta, Razorback w/Lascannon Tac Squad - Sgt. with 9 marines, Powerfist Sgt, 1 w/Heavy Bolter, 1 w/Melta, Razorback w/Lascannon Tac Squad - Sgt. with 9 marines, Powerfist Sgt, 1 w/Heavy Bolter, 1 w/Melta, Razorback w/Lascannon Tac Squad - Sgt. with 9 marines, Powerfist Sgt, 1 w/Heavy Bolter, 1 w/Melta, Razorback w/Lascannon I don't have my book with me so I'm not sure how many points that is. Against Nids I find flamers to be utterly useless, the nids will have charged you before you can even fire your flamer. Melta is kind of a toss, it could hurt the big nasties since they are slower and tougher, but it would likely take 2 combat squads combined firepower and the Sgt's PFs to actually kill some of these things. Though if you get reasonably lucky, you can kill one Tyrant 1st turn, the other on the 2nd turn, and then which ever Fex is giving you the most issues. Use the 6 heavy bolters to clear out the little stuff. If you need points drop the melta, and swap Lascannons on the Razorbacks to Heavy Bolters. Or if you have points to spare grab some old style Landspeeder Tornados. Two or three of those will ruin anything's day. But that's my advice, it's worked for me, your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Sanguini Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...25&start=25 Should help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Take relic blades for S6, take hellfire bolter shells where available (2+ wounding), in the immediately preceding post, may consider swapping the lascannon devs for HB devs, put the LCs in the tactical squads instead. This will save you some points for additional dudes or wargear, and in the early game means you can take shots at more MCs if needed. In the Killhammer threads and other posts, some have expounded on dropping whirlwinds for more HBs or ML devs, which means you cannot fire indirect, but, you have more men to take the charge, etc. For less than a whirl you can get a LS with HF-MM, or for more rapid firing fun, some have recommended 2xLS squadrons, each with HBs only, for a total of 4 HBs for 140 points, mobile, etc. Kill the bug, squish the bug, zap the bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Plasma Cannons are your friend and are about the only thing you can field in quantity that can hurt Tyrant/Tyrant Guard in any meaningful way. It's pure coincidence that the cheapest way to put two into a squad is to buy a 5 man Sternguard Squad. Plasma is similarly effective against Fexes. He's real short on synapse critters, so killing the stealers and the tyrants will go a long way towards winning any objectives mission. It's a nasty list, but beatable. Especially with template weapons and typical anti-horde loadout. You'll find that volume of fire is probably more useful than quality of fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 A couple of thoughts that come to me off the top of my head are the following: 1 - You can say a lot of things about a Hive Tyrant with Guards or a Carnifex, but one of those things is not that they are fast. What I would do, in this situation (given that you are rolling with a lot of bikes) is to realize that he's going to have a hell of a time trying to run you down, and unless he keeps all of his troops together in the same location, he's not going to be able to pick his fights. This means that you should be able to maneuver your troops such that you can bring all of your firepower to bear against a single unit, and conversely, he should only be able to bring a majority of his firepower to bear against you if you make a tactical mistake with your position. 2 - The list he has will be weak to several things - volume of high powered shooting (you do not really have this, though you have some good but not great shooting), lists that can eliminate his troops with extreme prejudice to prevent him from seizing objectives (this you should be able to do), and lists that can smash his Hive Tyrants to eliminate his Synapse (which you have the potential to create). The one thing I would advise, then, is that if you are willing to get a squad of TH/SS terminators and a land raider, if you are able to ram that directly into his hive tyrants (and/or concentrate shooting on them as well), and you eliminate his Synapse as a result, he's got a big, big problem. 3 - His guys will either have to stay together or stay in two nodes because of the synapse problem. If I were playing him with my marines, given that my army list is at least roughly similar to yours (in that it is fast and well rounded, I would do this): - If he stays together, I would avoid him for as long as possible while chipping away where I could, and play for either a draw or a last minute objective grab with turbo-boosting bikes. Just run him in circles and frustrate him while trying to run you down, and if you are playing kill points, focus on eliminating the small troops units for free points while denying him shots at you. - If he splits up, move rapidly to deploy all of my firepower against the smaller fragment of his forces; the idea there is that if you can lay the hammer of all of your troops on him in a single torrent of overwhelming firepower, you should be able to control the fight from there on out, because the initiative is then in your hands. 4 - If you can add any of them, I recommend the following units: - TH/SS terminators and Land Raider, as above. - Whirlwind(s), because you can park them behind terrain and bomb the hell out of his troops. - Sternguard, because rapid-firing the 2+ wound rounds into the big bugs is going to make him very unhappy. 20 * (2/3) * (5/6) means you should expect about 11 wounds on something when you do that... - Lysander; normally I'm not a fan of special characters, but I regard someone taking 8 big bugs as kind of cheesy, so feel free to ruin his day by bringing the eternal warrior S10 nightmare of bug crushing doom. Bonus points if you put him with the Sternguard so they have bolter drill. - Power fists; the hidden power fist in squads really hurts any list relying on big bugs. I heartily recommend them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 - TH/SS terminators and Land Raider, as above.- Whirlwind(s), because you can park them behind terrain and bomb the hell out of his troops. - Sternguard, because rapid-firing the 2+ wound rounds into the big bugs is going to make him very unhappy. 20 * (2/3) * (5/6) means you should expect about 11 wounds on something when you do that... - Lysander; normally I'm not a fan of special characters, but I regard someone taking 8 big bugs as kind of cheesy, so feel free to ruin his day by bringing the eternal warrior S10 nightmare of bug crushing doom. Bonus points if you put him with the Sternguard so they have bolter drill. - Power fists; the hidden power fist in squads really hurts any list relying on big bugs. I heartily recommend them. 100% agree! All of the above hurts Tyranids like nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelangel Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 9 MC+lot of small :) means, that the MC has not too high (2+) save, only 3+.(you must be sure...:-)) If yes, you must take LOT of ML and flamer. (basic troops) + sternguard with 5 combi plazma Your current list are simply overnumered. You have not enough fire power, not enough CCW, just mobility, but you can not win in the fiel of tyranids. You mus fight the battle in your field, which is the firepower. So, my suggestion: template weapons Bolter fire sternguard with combi-plazma (agains the big bug) ML whirlwind. First you must clear the fast unit from the table. (steelers, gaunts) If you have enough template you can do this during 2 round. After this you can concentrate the firepower to the big bug. But it is only my opinion. Please write your battle report after the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm2216 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 His Nid army list is not unbeatable. I have done it once with Eldar and then lost once with Eldar using tow different list. My first list owned his Nids with all the shooting I had in the army. I used 9 total War Walkers with Scatter Lasers and Missile launchers, 2 Wave Serpents with bright lances loaded with dire avengers, and another Wave Serpent with bright lance loaded with fire dragons. I also had to autarches on jetbikes with a squad of jet bikers each. I dropped his screen with ease and hit the big bugs with a lot of dakka, to include to mean charges by my autarchs with those laser lances on his tyrants that went well for me ( I should have took Shining Spears and it would have went better). He actually stayed back and did not charge my lines, however we where playing Dawn of War with Kill points. I lost the next time with a different list of Eldarzilla (avatar and three wraithlords with a squad of harlies). I simply did not have the numbers and enough shooting to compensate for all those Nids. It came down to a blood bath with him only having one third of his army left and me only having a squad of avengers in a wave serpent. I want to duplicate my results with Marines lthis time like I did with my first Eldar list I beat him with pretty soundly with by turn five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm2216 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Which would you kill first in the list Elite Fexes with 4 wounds a piece Fex with barbed strangler 3+ Fex with barbed strangler 3+ Fex with barbed strangler 3+ Heavy Support Fexes with 5 wounds a piece Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon 3+ Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon 3+ Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon 3+ I would kill the big ones first then handle the elite fexes since they would continue to do the most damage, unless they were a 2+ save MC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Which would you kill first in the list Elite Fexes with 4 wounds a piece Fex with barbed strangler 3+ Fex with barbed strangler 3+ Fex with barbed strangler 3+ Heavy Support Fexes with 5 wounds a piece Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon 3+ Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon 3+ Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon 3+ I would kill the big ones first then handle the elite fexes since they would continue to do the most damage, unless they were a 2+ save MC. wow, if I where he (and you are fortunate I am not) I would drop one sniperfex (bs and venom cannon) and replace it with 3 zoanthropes with psychic scream, then pack the hive tyrants with psychic scream also. (for those not not aware psychic scream causes all enmies withing 18" to have -1 ld, and is cumulitive, and passive). Yeah take those pinning tests at -5 ld, I'll wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 You may want to try a Thunder-fire or two (or three even :D). While not exceptionally effective against his bigger critters, it can waste the smaller ones quickly. Then use subterrainian shots to slow his advancing 'zillas to a crawl. Or start off slowing the 'zillas to a crawl. He'll be forced to choose between slowing down the critters or allowing them to advance out of synapse range. A tough call on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm2216 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Would this list do the trick against the Nid list below Kahn on his bike Chaplain in Terminator Armor in Land Raider Bike Squads with Powerfist, Attack bike with Multi Melta and two plasma guns x2 Terminator Squad with Cyclone Missile Launcher (I am leaning towards assault terminators so far, but I might miss the shooting capabilities, plus I do not have the Assault Terminator models yet) Land Raider Crusader (this carries the Terminators and Chaplain) Predator with side sponson Lascannon Predator with side sponson Lascannon His 2,000 list is as follows: Hive Tyrant devourers, 3 guards Hive Tyrant devourers, 3 guards 10 Genestealers 8 Guants without number 8 Guants without number 26 Guants 26 Guants Fex with barbed strangler Fex with barbed strangler Fex with barbed strangler Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon Fex with barbed strangler and venom cannon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'd like to throw in there that 3x Land Speeders with 2x HBs = 18 shots of BS4, S5 from 36" off a DS. Edit: For 180 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcm2216 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'd like to throw in there that 3x Land Speeders with 2x HBs = 18 shots of BS4, S5 from 36" off a DS. Edit: For 180 points. this is interesting, never thought about this one, hymm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyron Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Wouldn't it be safer to have 3 attack bikes instead? This enables them to last longer while land speeders can be easily picked off with it's armour 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Wouldn't it be safer to have 3 attack bikes instead? This enables them to last longer while land speeders can be easily picked off with it's armour 10. No, He is rocking those barbed stranglers (STR8) which instant kill bikes (2xT) and pin, and frankly 1 landspeeder is tougher than 1 attack bike. Actualy just crunched the numbers and vs the strangler they are equaly resistant, vs the VC the landspeeders are more resistant, vs guants the landspeeder is infantly more resitant, and if the fex or stealers touch either in CC it will be instigibed so yeah, landspeeders are the way to go for HB's, also the landspeeders HB are twinlinked, and it has twice as many of em (2 twinlinked per speeder vs 1 regular) You may want to try a Thunder-fire or two (or three even ). While not exceptionally effective against his bigger critters, it can waste the smaller ones quickly. Then use subterrainian shots to slow his advancing 'zillas to a crawl. Or start off slowing the 'zillas to a crawl. He'll be forced to choose between slowing down the critters or allowing them to advance out of synapse range. A tough call on his part. Um actualy all tyranids have the move through cover USR, so your realy not going to slow them that much Edit: landspeder heavy bolters are not twinlinked, I messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe you could try to target all of his synapse creatures with your lascannons, plasma cannons etc. first? With them all dead dead the little critters will really be messed up and most likely end up lurking or falling back off the table. Aim all the bolter fire at the genestealers because they don't need synapse and then he has no scoring units right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 sort of, outside of synapes a guant will have to pass a ld test (at ld 5 yeash) to be able to score. Also the turn they enter play (likely the without number guants) they will count as scoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 thunderfire cannons are fun and useful, sternguad with normal bolters dont work against big things with 2+ savevs as theyll only lose really 2 wounds if you rapid fire, at which point, your a bit dead i havent fully read the new rule book, bit short on money atm , if you move over 6 inches do you stll have to role a 6 to hit the land speeder which is quite gd if it still stands. drop pods work reasonably well against bit models as you can drop 10 sterguard with combimeltas (costly option) behind them which will let you wiipe out a few of them :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I would try to take out those Hive tyrants as quickly as possible. It gets rid of his Sinaps and wil make his troops go Lurking, Which in turn negates him the option of holding an objective and or having them bud in any CC fight. Also keep in mind that Gaunts who come from Without number cannot claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyron Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 No, He is rocking those barbed stranglers (STR8) which instant kill bikes (2xT) and pin, and frankly 1 landspeeder is tougher than 1 attack bike. Actualy just crunched the numbers and vs the strangler they are equaly resistant, vs the VC the landspeeders are more resistant, vs guants the landspeeder is infantly more resitant, and if the fex or stealers touch either in CC it will be instigibed so yeah, landspeeders are the way to go for HB's, also the landspeeders HB are twinlinked, and it has twice as many of em (2 twinlinked per speeder vs 1 regular) Right but in general land speeders will be easier to kill than bikes because bikes have 2 wounds, get an armour save plus cover save, you only need 1 shot to take out the speeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 No, He is rocking those barbed stranglers (STR8) which instant kill bikes (2xT) and pin, and frankly 1 landspeeder is tougher than 1 attack bike. Actualy just crunched the numbers and vs the strangler they are equaly resistant, vs the VC the landspeeders are more resistant, vs guants the landspeeder is infantly more resitant, and if the fex or stealers touch either in CC it will be instigibed so yeah, landspeeders are the way to go for HB's, also the landspeeders HB are twinlinked, and it has twice as many of em (2 twinlinked per speeder vs 1 regular) Right but in general land speeders will be easier to kill than bikes because bikes have 2 wounds, get an armour save plus cover save, you only need 1 shot to take out the speeder. In general yes, vs this list no, they only need one shot to kill the bike also (bonus touphness for bike dosent count for determining instant death) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERO Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 also the landspeeders HB are twinlinked, and it has twice as many of em I must of missed it in the Codex but I don't think they're TL'd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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