Points

[Dedecus]

Ok, so from my understanding of the rules when I read them, both players choose a point total. I get that.

 

now I've never played in a tournament or anything like that. It's just me and my buds playing so our interpretation of the rules are like this:

 

 

You say it's a 1500 point game, then your army will be 1500 points or less. By RAW, is this accurate? I've seen tons of army list that are like 1503 points so I figured I should ask the question since a couple of us are thinking about taking our armies to the "big leagues" lol.

 

Page references would also rock.

 

Thanks in advance,

Ded

[Morticon]

Some people are a lot more anal about this.

 

I for one am, for the simple reasons that I play in tournaments a lot and also those 3 points can make big difference in army design. One piece of wargear (a flamer, extra armour, 1 necron warrior etc) can alter the course of the game quite dramatically.

 

 

Having said that the initial rules outlined in the rule book are all about consent with your opponent. Tournaments do this for you. They very specifically set a points limit. If you're over, you're cheating. Plain and simple.

 

In friendlies its all good if your opponent says so.

[Steelmage99]

We dont actually need to provide page references. Our inability to do so is the very argument.

 

You agree to a pointvalue with your opponent. Should you or your opponent choose to disregard that agreement, then you are effectively cheating. No rule allows you to exceed the agreed upon pointvalue.

 

I am one of those that are very anal about this.

 

"But its only 3 point! It doesn't have much of an impact".

"Sure buddy. At some point I might say that my Terminators can charge 7" this turn. It's only 1", right?".

 

1 point or 30, it's all cheating to me.

[Legatus]

If you are not telling him you may kind of be cheating. But if you say "btw, I have 1503 points, ok?" then everything is fine, since both players have agreed on it. If the other player does not agree (something which I have noe encountered yet) then you probably just have to remove a model or a special weapon or something.

[eyescrossed]

Steelmage, you're gonna have a HUGE argument about someone having 1 extra point?

My friends and I set a points limit, but we're allowed to go 5 points over with something that you can't remove without losing a chunk of points - IE: If you're 5 points over and have a 5 point upgrade in your list, take out the upgrade, but say a person adds a terminator and they're 2 points over, we're fine with that.

[angronn]

It tends to irritate me if someone agrees to a points limit and then deliberately designs an army over that limit. The whole point of the limit is to force you to make difficult strategic choices (hm, another special weapon or an extra body? etc.). If one person limits themselves properly and the other doesn't, that's annoying.

 

I wouldn't argue about it, however. I've got enough spare models in my army box to just add in a little something of my own, or change a power weapon for a power fist.

[chromedog]

If you play in a tourney, then generally, they set a points limit and if you go over (many of ours have the players submit lists for checking prior to the event) you are asked to recalculate your list, or face a penalty up to and including disqualification. 1 point or 40 points makes no difference. Over=over.

 

For a 'friendly', if your opponent is fine with it, then it's all good.

 

I'll generally allow up to 5 points over a limit 'accidentally'. I'm not a big tourney player, but I like having a level playing field (the reason behind points limits) - and at a given points limit, most armies are supposed to be 'even' (the problem is the 'sweet spot' for many armies might differ with this.

[Isiah]

Personally I think play to points agreed and no more. It takes time to craft a list to 1500 (whatever), just seems good game etiquette to at least make the effort to get it to fit the required limit eh?

 

In reality over-points for friendlies no problem of course providing everyone is in agreement. Tournies it's a different matter and it's up to the organisers to impose a strict list total regime to ensure no perceived or actual advantage.

[JamesI]

As has been said, in a tournament, don't do it. At all.

 

In friendlies, if you say something I won't care. If I find out after the fact you were a few points over, that's cheating. (I spend a long time on lists struggling to remove that last 5-10 points. If all of a sudden I find out I did that and lost something in the list I wanted but didn't need to make that effort, I would rightfully be annoyed!)

[King_Pash]

So, in conclusion:

 

In Tournament play: 1500 limit SHARP You will be punished for being over limit. Different tournies, different punishements.

 

In Friendly games: 1500-ish. If you let your opponent know that you're over and they're ok with it then go ahead.

 

Either way, it's a game for fun and you should make sure both sides don't feel like they're being played unfairly. :D

[Democratus]

In the BRB under the Organizing A Battle section there is a subsection called "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces." In the rules they call it a "points limit". This means you can not exceed the points. Otherwise you would be going over the limit.

 

So the original question as to RAW is covered there.

[Ju'kosian]

For tournaments :

Depends on the organisation and how strict they are..

Normally it's 1500points and not above, however less is OK.

 

as for friendly games, Me and my friends agree the point limit and sometimes it's a little above but in friendly games it makes no difference for me..

Just tell before the game and it's fine for me

[angronn]

In the BRB under the Organizing A Battle section there is a subsection called "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces." In the rules they call it a "points limit". This means you can not exceed the points. Otherwise you would be going over the limit.

 

So the original question as to RAW is covered there.

 

I was looking at a couple of Warhammer Army books today, and they are much clearer than the Codices on the issue.

[Rogue]

Why, what do they say?

[WarpSpawn]

"I was only a few miles per hour over the speed limit officer. What's the big deal?"

 

It's called a "limit" for a reason. I would say the whole point is to force you to really consider what is actually important, not to allow you to say "screw it, that extra terminator only puts me 5 points over". It's not just about the handful of points, it's about the fact that you have probably not made as many compromises in building your army as someone who sticks to the actual points value.

 

If anyone wants to play to 1500 give or take, at least make sure you have the decency to ask your opponent first and don't just show up with your rule breaking list, expecting people to be too polite to complain. I may be willing to be flexible on occasion, if someone discusses it with me first, but I won't take liberties with points values and I don't think it unreasonable to expect the same from an opponent.

[angronn]

Why, what do they say?

 

It discusses that the limit is say, 1500, but very few armies will actually be on the dot and that most will have a few points spare. The implication is that the limit IS a limit and should not be broken. Which is what you would expect from the word "limit".

[WarpSpawn]

The thing is though, it does not really need to elaborate on it. The word "limit" is pretty clearly defined in the english language.

 

Limit

 

One of the definitions that sums it up pretty well in this context is: "The point, edge, or line beyond which something cannot or may not proceed."

[eyescrossed]

So you're gonna have a fit if someone's army is 2001 points?

 

EDIT: Also, look in WD, a lot of their battle report armies are 1-4 points over the limit.

[WarpSpawn]

What I actually said was I generally expect people to stick to the point limit, or have the decency to ask me about it in advance.

 

In practice, my reaction will likely vary depending on how much I like the person and how much I think they are taking the mick, as well as how friendly the game is.

 

As others have said as well, it is not just about 1 point. It is about the compromises on composition that the player has probably avoided, in spending "just one more point". Just what does the player actually get for that single point? If all they have got for it is a single extra close combat weapon, or some other minor upgrade, as well as perhaps not being much to argue about, this is also a lousy reason to go over, as it is easy to simply not take the upgrade.

 

On the other hand, have they gone over by one point because they bought a twin linked las upgrade on a predator, an extra obliterator, a jump pack for their chaplain, or any one of the other items that could actually influence the game in a meaningful fashion? Clearly, none of these cost a single point by themselves but to include them, the player has not sacrificed something else potentially game changing to get them, whilst sticking to the limit. Once again, if there was a minor upgrade they could have dropped, there would not be a problem sticking to it in the first place, so we can reasonably assume it is something more significant to the game.

 

 

I am going to disregard WD battle report poits values as irrelevant to a RAW discussion as (aside from glaring errors people often point out with WD) it can be reasonably assumed that the players agreed to be more flexible. There are numerous games played in WD where strict points limits are not used. The latest issue, with it's "use everything" approach to the Lizardmen battle, is a case in point.

[eyescrossed]

Then just ask them to take out a personal icon if they are 1 point over and have an extra obliterator :whistling:

[WarpSpawn]

Quite frankly, what they do or do not include to make it fit within the points allowance is the player's choice (concepts of cheesy lists and comp scoring aside).

 

Maybe I have not got enough caffeine in me yet today but your attempt at humour is lost on me.

[eyescrossed]

Excuse me?

I was not trying to be funny.

Maybe there should be a smiley tounge emoticon and a serious tongue emoticon.

But if you're going to get angry for someone not notifying you that their army is 1/2000th over the limit, I probably wouldn't play you.

Maybe cops should book people for going 100.1 in a 100 zone.

[Rogue]

If I went over the points limit, I would regard myself as cheating (a little bit), in the same way that moving 6" and a bit is cheating a bit. It may make no difference (and given how accurately we play, probably wouldn't get noticed anyway), but if it gave me a charge next turn by a fraction, then big advantage to me.

 

But that's about me. There are two guys I play against. One goes under (and I have an evens record against him), one sometimes goes a bit over (and I'm 100% to the good there). What they choose to do is up to them (unless he goes over by a couple of hundred!) - what I choose to do is up to me.

 

Two other thoughts - it's a rare army that has nothing in it worth 10pts or less, so there's always something that can be dropped.

 

And - I'd make a case for a totally WYSIWYG army that went a point or two over, rather than a single proxy just to scrap under.

[WarpSpawn]

@ eyescrossed

 

Who said angry? I never said I'd get angry. Please do not put words into my mouth/keyboard. I simply said I do not want people to assume I will be OK with it and responses will vary if someone does ask me.

 

I think if you are unwilling to play someone, unless they will let you take liberties with points values, it is you who has the problem, not me.

[eyescrossed]

Fine, I'd play with you, I'd just make sure you never moved more than 6" with infantry, even if it was 6.000000000000000000000000000000001".