Dedecus Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 So to start, I'm a Dark Angels player. Just wanted to get that outta the way. Now then, I got bored today so I started flipping through your codex since a buddy of mine just started playing SW. He was going on about how he's going to get some random C:SM special characters and mix them into his army... Well mostly just Chronus and throw him into that Leman Russ you guys love so much. Now almost immediately my hair shot up at the thought of something so absurd. An Ultramarine in a Wolf Leman Russ.... <spit> But I read your codex, and was absolutely stunned when I read the "Choosing your army". No idea what I'm talking about, go re-read it. I read that my buddy can do exactly what he said he's gonna do, but has to use the special rules for SW on him. Did I miss something? Is this absurdity legal as per RAW? Fire some page references too, if you don't mind. Please forgive me if this sort of thing has been mentioned before. My skills using the search are quite terrible. Thanks guys, Ded Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 In short, no the Space Wolves may not just take things from C:SM willy nilly. Though the SW do have access to some of these items such as Drop Pods and the variants of Dreadnaughts and Land Raiders. While Tellion can arguably be taken as an upgrade option for Wolf Scouts equipped from the C:SM entry, I don't think Chronus is an allowed upgrade for Space Wolves unless I'm much mistaken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedecus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 See, that's what I thought too. Ok. Since the SW have their own armoury, Chronus should not be able to be taken as an upgrade for any SW vehicle. But he could take like.... Lysander, but would lose the Chapter tactics, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 no, no special characters at all. the problem with telion and chronus is they (by the extact wording) arent special characters, but rather upgrades for certain units. i personally think taking either is just wrong, but thats just my .02 cents. wolf lord kieran Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 We get vehicles and their upgrades, but not characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullr Direfang Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 no, no special characters at all. the problem with telion and chronus is they (by the extact wording) arent special characters, but rather upgrades for certain units. i personally think taking either is just wrong, but thats just my .02 cents. wolf lord kieran WLK has what is popularly accepted (by that i mean what GW will tell you if you call). but it is very unclear. i personally stick to what GW told me when i called. i though still believe that if you cross the FAQ and the 'dex, that for ,at least the Scout Sargent, we should have some of the stuff as options. but GW says that the character upgrades are "special character" styled upgrades, and should be seen as one buying the character and then his squad or vehicle. talk it over with the people you with. that is best. i get to use things that are no long usable, in fun games because my group and i talked it over. once you guys decide on how to use C:SW with C:SM, it will be more fair from the sw player's and your side when it comes to how things work out in games. edit: also check in the stickied threads at the top of the SW forum here, they will help out a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 See, that's what I thought too. Ok. Since the SW have their own armoury, Chronus should not be able to be taken as an upgrade for any SW vehicle. But he could take like.... Lysander, but would lose the Chapter tactics, right? No, like I said he can't just pick units or characters at will, only the units listed in C:SW are allowed to be taken from C:SM and those include all variants of Land Raiders and Dreadnaughts and so forth. But not infantry units or Special Characters or things like the Thunderfire Cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPetersson Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 In short, no the Space Wolves may not just take things from C:SM willy nilly. Though the SW do have access to some of these items such as Drop Pods and the variants of Dreadnaughts and Land Raiders. While Tellion can arguably be taken as an upgrade option for Wolf Scouts equipped from the C:SM entry, I don't think Chronus is an allowed upgrade for Space Wolves unless I'm much mistaken. You've got that the wrong way around. Telion is out of the question as he replaces the normal sergeant and our scouts have don't have sergeants. Hence no Telion. Chronus is debatable though and our FAQ here on B&C says that we can take him... I wouldn't normally though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedecus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 You've got that the wrong way around.Telion is out of the question as he replaces the normal sergeant and our scouts have don't have sergeants. Hence no Telion. Chronus is debatable though and our FAQ here on B&C says that we can take him... I wouldn't normally though... It says in your codex that I can use the C:SM and/or C:SW to fill out my FOC for my army. That tells me that I could take anything in either codex to do so, unless there is an entry in C:SW which superceded it ie. Venerable Dread. It's all in the wording, right? I personally think its crap, but if the rules say he can, then I guess theres nothing I can do. What I need is like a page reference to where he cant use units that arent mentioned in the codex, but I cant find it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 What I need is like a page reference to where he cant use units that arent mentioned in the codex, but I cant find it well its the same as with , I dont know , falcons . he can take everything [rhinos/razorback/land raiders etc its in the FAQ] that the SW codex doesnt say how it works or how much it costs , but is writen unit X can take transport Y or option X . of course thanks since the GW ruling FAQ are non official :) the easiest win against SW dex is just veto army list and you get a nice fat 17/0 . unless he runs a foot slogging BC spam list that is . if he has tanks /transports HQs he is screwd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Look the whole thing about Chronus boils down to a single simple question: Is chronus a vehicle upgrade? I say he is, and thus we can take him. If he isnt, then we cant. Dedecus, all of this is spelled out in the GW FAQ ok? Chronus i the only special character possibly available. We dont get scout seargents so we cant possibly take telion, and there is no connection with any other character in the codex SM. The only reason we can consider taking chronus is that we have access to all the C:SM vehicles and their options and upgrades. So talk it over with your mate, and Im sure you two can work something out. I think its reasonable... that model would be weighing in at nearly 300pts you know. It says in your codex that I can use the C:SM and/or C:SW to fill out my FOC for my army. That tells me that I could take anything in either codex to do so, unless there is an entry in C:SW which superceded it ie. Venerable Dread. It's all in the wording, right? I personally think its crap, but if the rules say he can, then I guess theres nothing I can do. What I need is like a page reference to where he cant use units that arent mentioned in the codex, but I cant find it. As for this... no you cant just take things straight from C:SM. You take vehicle options from C:SM... and thats it except for one unit of Wolf Scouts can take the codex SM scouts weapon options... and only the weapon options. Many wont even include camo cloaks into the mix. On the armory page it does however state that we use the Rules for our weapons and wargear from C:SM unless it is spelled out in our own book. So we get codex assault cannons, plasma rifles, stormshields etc. Our infantry squads, vendreads, HQ's, special characters, and IG style tank have nothing in common with the C:SM equivilants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1879946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grantyr Greymantle Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 It says in your codex that I can use the C:SM and/or C:SW to fill out my FOC for my army. That tells me that I could take anything in either codex to do so, unless there is an entry in C:SW which superceded it ie. Venerable Dread. It's all in the wording, right? I personally think its crap, but if the rules say he can, then I guess theres nothing I can do. What I need is like a page reference to where he cant use units that arent mentioned in the codex, but I cant find it. I've never seen anywhere in our codex that says I can use the C:SM and/or C:SW to fill out my FOC. Where are you getting that idea? Is that what your Space Wolf friend is telling you his codex says? If so, have him point to it in his codex for you - I'm pretty sure he won't be able to find any statement to that effect if you call him on it. It's true we need to use the C:SM to play our army, but it doesn't mean we can use whatever parts of the C:SM we want - we may not have to follow the Astartes rules completely, but we do follow the rules of the Fang. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FENRISÚLFUR Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I suggest using the Adepticon FAQ, because it ACTUALLY answers some questions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 It says in your codex that I can use the C:SM and/or C:SW to fill out my FOC for my army. That tells me that I could take anything in either codex to do so, unless there is an entry in C:SW which superceded it ie. Venerable Dread. It's all in the wording, right? I personally think its crap, but if the rules say he can, then I guess theres nothing I can do. What I need is like a page reference to where he cant use units that arent mentioned in the codex, but I cant find it. No that's not how it works. That is said in the introduction part of the book, that does not validly allow a SW army to pick items from the SM Codex. You use the army list and can only take items from C:SM that it specifically allows you to take in the SW Army List. The introduction paragraph is NOT a rule. Tell your friend to show you where in his army list it says he can take Lysander for instance, he can't and if he uses the intro paragraph as a justification dreadsock him. All the intro paragraph tells a player is that the army does use units from both codexies and you may choose which you use within the limits outlined in the SW Army List. Like Attack Bike Squadrons come from C:SM while Bike Squadrons have their own entry in C:SW and that's explained in the army list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 /begin Rulez Pack Mode Alrighty then, I'll answer this the easiest way I can- a list. 1. Special Characters may not be taken from C:SM, with the possible exception of Sergeant Chronus. Whether or not you can include him depends on how your TO/Opponent views the definition of vehicle upgrade. Telion cannot be taken, as our Wolf Scout Packs do not have a Sergeant for him to replace. Lysander, Cassius, ect, cannot be used as they are for C:SM only. 2. Any other units we take from C:SM (vehicles as detailed in the FAQ/Codex) are used at those prices and with those options- otherwise my LRC couldn't have a multi-melta, as a multi-melta isn't in the C:SW Vehicle Armory. Whether or not we use upgrade prices as in C:SW for vehicles taken from C:SM I dunno at the moment. I'll get back to this one. 3. Any units that we take from C:SM automatically lose any C:SM rules they have and gain C:SW rules. So all vehicles, Attack Bikes, Dreads, ect, have Acute Senses instead of Combat Tactics. 4. Any items mentioned in C:SW that are told to check C:SM for rules, we use C:SM for them. As such, we get H4 Rending Assault Cannons, H2 Cyclone Missile Launcher Systems, and 3++ Storm Shields. Anything that has its own rules in the Space Wolves Wargear section (pg. 15) are used as such. Anything that has no equivalent anymore like the Wolf Totem, Auspex, Bionics, and Fang of Morkai are null and void. They have no rules in C:SM anymore and there are no rules for them in C:SW, so they are unusable. 5. One Wolf Scout Pack can take Weapon Options from C:SM Scout Squad- that means we can take snipers, heavy bolter, missile launcher, bolters. They cannot take Camo Cloaks as Camo Cloaks are not weapons. I'll take a page from my DM in D&D- "even if you can think of a way to kill someone with it, if it ain't a weapon, you can't use it." 6. It seems that you have an odd way of interpreting the wording of C:SW. I suggest you get a copy for yourself and become acquianted with it before you try to tell us that you can run Lysander in a C:SW army. Even in 3rd Edition, when the SC were largely generic in "that any Space Marine army" may include them, you couldn't do so. 7. Read the zogging FAQ's! Links are at the top and in my signature. / end Rulez Pack Mode *stomps off angrily* Edit: *stomps back angrily, Exterminatussock in hand* I completely forgot to Exterminatussock the OP! *gives OP 10 lashes of the Exterminatussock* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Alright Bran, heres your lesson: 2) As stated in the FAQ that allows us to take those vehicles we use all of the costs for there options from C:SM. After all not only do we not have a multi-melta in our codex for a landraider, we dont have a price for it either :devil:. Yes this includes extra armor etc. 3) This is correct, note however that they retain "And they shall know no fear" as both armies have it. 4) And thats stands even if a different codex has rules for them... sadly. 6) Remember to tell them that you can get it for free by "buying" it from GW canada for $0 canadian. Its good stuff. And finally: Dont exterminatusock the poor Dark Angel. Hes already confused and disoriented. Save it for the pricks :lol:. You arent by any chance in montana are you? I saw a young man who looked alot like you on the bus today... but he was leaving as I was getting on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tiger Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 isn't there a small problem in taking chronus in a space wolf army, his rule says he can be mounted in any space marine vehicle from the army list, or summit like that, and as people continuously argue round here, Blood angels, Dark angels, black templars AND space wolves are NOT space marines, there Blood angels, Dark angels, Black templar and Space olves Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thats where the Debate is King Tiger.... this thread is Not the place to hash it out either. Weve already informed him, several times, that this is a debated subject. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedecus Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thank you. Now I can show my buddy this thread and go fix my hair which is still standing on end. And the whole "read the faq" thing, I did that... before I posted, hence why I had no problems with him using the vehicles listed, but did with him throwing Chronus in a Leman Russ. But when he pulled out Lysander leading some Wolf Guard, I thought he lost his damn mind. Your SW army is limited to what`s in your codex, with exceptions of the other items the FAQ states. Is that statement correct? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Your SW army is limited to what`s in your codex, with exceptions of the other items the FAQ states. Is that statement correct? Yes that's more or less accurate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Scalphunter Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thank you. Now I can show my buddy this thread and go fix my hair which is still standing on end. And the whole "read the faq" thing, I did that... before I posted, hence why I had no problems with him using the vehicles listed, but did with him throwing Chronus in a Leman Russ. But when he pulled out Lysander leading some Wolf Guard, I thought he lost his damn mind. Your SW army is limited to what`s in your codex, with exceptions of the other items the FAQ states. Is that statement correct? Wait, he tried that?! Whaat! *gathers up the Silverfangs and heads out Waaaghing!, Exterminatussock in hand* I'll krump 'im inter next week, dat zoggin git! He makes Space Wolf players everywhere look bad, cheating so blatantly! :D :D :D :cuss :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thank you. Now I can show my buddy this thread and go fix my hair which is still standing on end. And the whole "read the faq" thing, I did that... before I posted, hence why I had no problems with him using the vehicles listed, but did with him throwing Chronus in a Leman Russ. But when he pulled out Lysander leading some Wolf Guard, I thought he lost his damn mind. Your SW army is limited to what`s in your codex, with exceptions of the other items the FAQ states. Is that statement correct? Im sorry. Hopefully hell figure it out with your help and without being a complete jerk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1880626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunchb0x Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 VASH hit it on the head. He cant take him. Its actually listed in the diff FOCharts what can be taken...ie whirlwind variants are listed in FAST ATTACK... example : To take the SMURF WING see CODEX SPACE MARINES for points options ect. Even in the FAQ its states what can and can not be taken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1881687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Space Wolf my freezin fenrisian arse. He sounds like paskapää perkele from the Wolf of Fenris, one of those oath-breaking, crawling lickle-spit traitors who betrayed their wolf brothers. :wink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1881722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Give him a good kicking from all of us. I hate cheating SW players more than anything as its usually a rare sight or inexperienced players not knowing rules properly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160185-let-me-get-this-straight/#findComment-1882933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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