angronn Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 The glaring hole left by the simplicity of the codex is that their unit entry does not have 'independant character' listed under their special rules. In the case of 'with servitors', this, as shown above, gives them counts as. The big problem is using them as an independent character rule bearing model when they didn't start with servitors at all which I put down, perhaps in error, to unspecified by omission in the entire 5th Ed. rule-set/codex relationship. So what happens to a BATM if taken without servitors to start with? And there's the rub. The rules make it clear that characters count as independent character special rule characters when bodyguard, retinue or similar dies. Some say that it was RAI only for independent characters stuck (via codex restrictions) with a retinue. But the rule simply does not say that nor is it intimated IMO. It is a clause to include characters within the relevant part of the book that contains detail relevant to the consequences of the clause. That is reason enough for it to be in said rules pages. They don't have the Independent Character special rule, and you're arguing that RAI, they are meant to. Further, this: Some say that it was RAI only for independent characters stuck (via codex restrictions) with a retinue. But the rule simply does not say that nor is it intimated IMO. is simply factually wrong. The rule you are referring to is in the box out entitled "Independent Characters Joining and Leaving Units", which makes it absolutely clear what the RAW is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 16, 2009 Author Share Posted February 16, 2009 Shatter. Page 48 is titled Independent Characters joinign and leaving units. That page has the retinue rules. That page only applies to Independent Characters. The rules on page 47 state that all independet characters will ahve the Independent Character rule. Techmarines do not have hte Independent Character rule, so the retinue rules do not apply. BATM are under no circumstances independent characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Indeed they are not ICs, nor are DA techies either. Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Something just occurred to me. Servitors are mindless. They're wargear. Problem solved. He's a unit of one and is still alone with servitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 That would be fluff, but does not really have any rule value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culsandar Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Something just occurred to me. Servitors are mindless. They're wargear. Problem solved. He's a unit of one and is still alone with servitors. He still isn't an IC, which means he still can't ride with another unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 and pplaying servitors as wargear comes with a host of other problems and is not at all RAW. there really is no issue here - the D/BATM is not an IC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 The BA/DA Techmarine starts off as a one model unit - but is not an IC. If you add Servitors, the unit can consist of more models. In which case, the Techmarine is treated as a character (but not an Independent Character) that 'leads' the unit. He is effectively the 'upgrade character' (though he doesn't follow the intitial requirement for an upgrade character to be part of a multi-model unit). None of this is intended to be/or actually is confusing. The simple fact is that the BA/DA Techmarines cannot join other units - in a transport or otherwise. But Codex Techmarines can. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you add Servitors, the unit can consist of more models. In which case, the Techmarine is treated as a character I am not sure about that. Would a regular Crisis Suite with Drones count as an Upgrade Character then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Something just occurred to me. Servitors are mindless. They're wargear. Problem solved. He's a unit of one and is still alone with servitors. He still isn't an IC, which means he still can't ride with another unit. right, he's a unit of one Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Exactly. He can't join another unit. What a shame... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1885975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 If you add Servitors, the unit can consist of more models. In which case, the Techmarine is treated as a character I am not sure about that. Would a regular Crisis Suite with Drones count as an Upgrade Character then? If you keep my quote within its contect (i.e. all of the information following where you stopped the quote), then my statement is fully explained. But no, the drones are wargear for the Crisis Suit - Servitors are not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1886000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I am just not convinced that a model that by default would not be a character would become one if you added additional models to it. I am also not sure that the definition of Upgrade Characters would make a difference between models that are added because of the unit options or models that are added as wargear. A Crisis Suite with two Drones will start the game inside a small unit, and the Crisis Suite is definitely the "leader" of that unit. That seems to be what the rules for Characters require. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1886017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 The sticky part is that the Servitors are treated like additional models to the unit - but are removed if the Techmarine is eliminated as a casualty. So there is an "upgrade relationship" in both that the Techmarine is unique in the unit and has access to exotic wargear upgrades - just like a Veteran Sergeant, plus he directly affects the rest of the unit in terms of ATSKNF and other effects (like the casualty removal I mentioned before). Yey, he starts off as a unit of one. His specific classification has little bearing on what he does on the tabletop - all of the necessary information is there to play him properly and accurately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1886041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Being a character doesn't, in and of itself, give a model any special rules or effects . Think about it. A classical character is a Veteran Sergeant. Nothing of what he can do is dependent on him being a "character". He conveys a higher leadership. That isn't dependent on him being a character. The rules state we use the highest Leadership available of all models in a unit. He has acces to fancy gear. Entirely by the grace of the unit options presented in the unit entry. Again nothing that really has anything to do with him being a character. When it comes to any of the rules presented in the rulebook, it is completely irrelevant wether a DATM/BATM with a few Servitors is a character or not. Do you like to think of a Crisis suit (non-shas'vre) with drones as being a character? Fine, go ahead. It doesn't convey anything ruleswise anyway. An Independent Character, on the other hand, is an entirely different kettle of fish. Independent Characters has direct impact on the moment rules, shooting rules, assault rules etc. simply by being Independent Characters. And to be an Independent Character a model have to have the Independent Character special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1886424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Exactly. Being a 'Character' does not really do anything with the current rule system. The last rule that affected 'Characters' I can remember was the 'Hunt for the Fallen' in the old Codex Dark Angels, but that is gone now. In the current rulebook there is only a very brief definition of what an Upgrade Character is, and the information that Independent Characters (which do have a few rules for them) are specifically described as such. Models that can be played alone and don't usually come with other models are not really covered by the 'Upgrade Character' definition. That's why I keep comparing the Techmarine with a Crisis Suite. The Crisis Suite can be accompanied by Drones. The Crisis Suite (as the dronws owner) will determine as what kind of model type they are (Jump Infantry). If a drone is killed (33% of the unit) the unit would test on the LD of the Crisis Suite. The Crisis Suite has way better stats than the drones, and can get (or rather, has to get) additional equipment, as described in it's options. But a unit of Crisis Suites could upgrade one Suite to a Shas'Vre, who would have an even better profile and would be able to get even more equipment. But another problem with the rulebook definition of Upgrade Characters would be that you could even upgrade a single Crisis Suite to a Shas'Vre, so it does not start inside another unit either. Currently, the definition of 'Characters' is very imprecise. But as mentioned earlier, there is not really a need for a precise definition, as there are not actually any rules involving 'characters'. None that I could think of, that is. There may be rules in the future. A psychic power or special ability affecting 'Characters'. Then we will have to use RAI to decide that, yes, lonely Shas'Vre and Techmarines are supposed to be Characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1886455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 as it stands the original question has been answered repeatedly: General consensus: B/DATMs are not ICs. might be a character, but that changes nothing in the rules (currently). counter-argument (not storngly supported): the TM can take servitors in his unit, and become an IC upon their demise via a loophole in the RAW. Topic Closed to prevent further circling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160211-ba-techmarines/page/3/#findComment-1886564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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