Brother Pax Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 In the rule book it says that distances when firing are measured from the barrel of the weapon. If I have a razorback with a Heavy Flamer turret this means that the template is covering the vehicle expecially if I want to fire straight forward. Firstly is this allowed as the template is covering the vehicle Secondly is it worth it when most of the fire power is expended over your own vehicle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 In the rule book it says that distances when firing are measured from the barrel of the weapon. If I have a razorback with a Heavy Flamer turret this means that the template is covering the vehicle expecially if I want to fire straight forward. likely. so you take a S5 hit on your front or side armour... it won't hurt (just don't shoot it backwards). Firstly is this allowed as the template is covering the vehicle yes. Secondly is it worth it when most of the fire power is expended over your own vehicle. Most? Make the weapon reaosnbly long, but not unreasonably so. the closest precedent would be the Sister's immolator, which has quite a bit of length from turet cener to barrel end. That said this is not the place to discuss "worthiness" but I presume that if you were to move into a pile of boys, or get asaulted by same (or simillar), then the next shooting phase would see a good use for a TL heavy flamer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1880048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Firstly is this allowed as the template is covering the vehicle yes. Is there a page reference to this answer? Maybe I'm goingblindbut I'm not finding a rule that says you can't cover your own vehicle with a template fired from itself ... or some wording my sleep-deprived brain can't create. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1880325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Models are not effected by their own flamer template, per page 29 of th BRB. It has also been FAQ'd in a number of places for other template based attacks that touch the firer as well as the target. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1880742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pax Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 In the rule book it says that distances when firing are measured from the barrel of the weapon. If I have a razorback with a Heavy Flamer turret this means that the template is covering the vehicle expecially if I want to fire straight forward. likely. so you take a S5 hit on your front or side armour... it won't hurt (just don't shoot it backwards). Roll a 6 and you could get a glancing hit and stun yourself Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1880805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 P 29 in my book says nothing about protecting the vehicle from its own template weapons. P 60 makes it pretty clear that the template even partially touching the vehicle results in an armour pen roll to that face. I honestly don't know what facing "should" be used for a roof-mounted weapon. or if the weapon is "intended" to harm the vehicle upon which it is mounted. but we have no statements to the contrary, so I presume that it does, and to the facing over which it fires. seems sensible to me. YMMV. either way, I think it can be very much "worth it" in the right circumstances. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1880931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pax Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 That was what I was alluding too It makes no sense that it would harm itself but I wanted to know cos there are plenty of people out there who would say it does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1880934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 and they would have a good argument. as I said before - just make the gun long enough. If it long enough that the template is just outside of the hull when the turret is ~60° or so from strait ahead then you should have a pretty useful weapon it should not be absurdly long. though, in practice, Heavy Flamers are roughly the size of heavy bolters or multi-meltas, which would leave you about 1" short. a case for a house-rule of ever there was one. but by RAW you might hurt yourself, yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1880944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Which is illogical anyway, since the flames would go over the hull. But logic doesn't exist according to GW ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1881005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 P 60 makes it pretty clear that the template even partially touching the vehicle results in an armour pen roll to that face. This section of the rules deals with units shooting at vehicles though, why would this apply to a vehicle shooting its heavy flamer over its own hull. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1881053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Check out the picture at the bottom of page 29. Four Marines are touching the template, but only three are hit. The one that isn't hit is the firer. Hence, the firer is immune to their own template if the template has to touch the firer in order to attack. This is the case with flamers and certain damaging psychic powers that use templates that are placed touching the psyker. In all cases, the template is placed in contact with the firer, but only the models touching the template other than the firer are hit. As to which AV is used for the top of a vehicle, you use the side AV, per the first bullet point under "Template and Balst Weapons against vehicles" on page 60. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1881073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 This thread got me wondering. Lets say for arguments sake that the template hits its own vehicle. When drawing LOS from the turret it can only see the top of the vehicle, so wouldn't the vehicle then get a 3+ cover save since the hit would be resolved against the rear, front or side armor(bottom of P.62). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1881103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 When drawing LOS from the turret it can only see the top of the vehicle, so wouldn't the vehicle then get a 3+ cover save since the hit would be resolved against the rear, front or side armor(bottom of P.62). Nope, becouse it can still see more then 50% of the whole of the vehicle. As to the main question: page 29 - template weapons: - place the template so that it is touching the base of the firing model - any models fully or partially UNDER the template are hit Key word here and why the firer isnt hit - he must be UNDER the template, not just touching it. Template is placed to touch the base of the model, not placed to cover any of the base. Therfore it is fired without hurting the firer. (BTW - the index on template weapons is wrong, its page 85 rather then 84, and add page 80 onto the list as well :P ) page 60 - vehicles hit by template weapons: - If a vehicle is even partially under a template it is hit on the side the firer is facing. Ok, so keeping these things in mind heres the answer and a simple way around the result: Answer - if you fire the weapon you place the bottom small part of the template to touch the base of the model. Trace the LOS from the weapon itself, so place the template at this part of the tank. Try to cover as many enemy as possible. Dont cover any friendly models. A1 - friendly models means other then the firer, so can place over the firer but no other models in the army. In this case the tank if anything is under the template takes a hit as there is NO rule that says it is only templates from the enemy that effect it. It says template, not enemies firing template weapons. A2 - friendly models mean anything in your army, so you must angle the template so it goes against the side of the tank, but dosnt ever cover any of it. (technicly placing the template from the weapon isnt RAW as there is no mention of how vehicles fire templates or from WHERE you must measure from the base - as stupid as it sounds, LOS must be drawn from the weapon, but the template could be placed from the front of the vehicle as lone as it is touching the base of it) Ok - so really there are two possible end answers depending on "friendly model" definition - but I would say it means other models, just as if you said "can the men please stand up" you wouldnt be talking about yourself as well nessisiarily. How to get around this problem? 2 answers. 1 - on vehicles like land raiders, just andgle the template so it dosnt cover the vehicle. Simple. 2 - on tanks like the imulator, do as the rules say and place the template from the BASE of the model - draw LOS from the weapon, but place the template small end touching the BASE of the model. therfore none of the model will be under the template. So hows that work for everyone using just the rules and no common sense? (oh, and even if you did use common sense - heck yeah you can hurt your own tank shooting flames over it - you ever wander why welders where huge gloves for??? because the flames CAN hit themselves) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1881347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 common sense??? anyhow - I missed the BASE part in lieu of the traditional range from weapon on vehicles. interesting... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1881412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 1 - on vehicles like land raiders, just andgle the template so it dosnt cover the vehicle. Simple. 2 - on tanks like the imulator, do as the rules say and place the template from the BASE of the model - draw LOS from the weapon, but place the template small end touching the BASE of the model. therfore none of the model will be under the template. Works for me. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1881960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pax Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 1 - on vehicles like land raiders, just andgle the template so it dosnt cover the vehicle. Simple. 2 - on tanks like the imulator, do as the rules say and place the template from the BASE of the model - draw LOS from the weapon, but place the template small end touching the BASE of the model. therfore none of the model will be under the template. But in the rules LOS and RANGE are measured from the weapon so the template would have to be touching the weapon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 But in the rules LOS and RANGE are measured from the weapon so the template would have to be touching the weapon No, because don't measure range with the heavy flamer you just place the template so that its smaller end touching the hull/base of the vehicle/model and the rest of it is covering as many enemy models as possible like Praeger pointed out. Now if it worked like a IG Hellhound which has a range of 24 inches then you would measure range from the turret and then place the template over the unit it was firing at. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Pax Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Yeah but the template is its range thats why you place a marines template against its base. Cos ranges are measured from its base. With Vehicles ranges are measured from the weapon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Yeah but the template is its range... Not according to RAW :P. The rules for the template are different. That is the beauty of it. :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praeger Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Exactly - NORMAL weapons use LOS and range - but template weapons ignore both these rules as they have specific rules - otherwise how would you be able to hit models with the template that you cant see? :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rat of vengence Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Hang on, are you saying I can place the end of the template at any point on the hull of my immolator and go from there? That doesn't sound right (and apologies if I misread that post...) RoV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelmage99 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Thats what I have gotten from the posts too, Rat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 and it stands up to RAW - which is brilliant. HOWEVER should you be running a redeemer, Baal pred, or another vehicle with exterior or with sponson-mounted template weapons could you THEN use the weapon as the point of origination for the template (include it in the "base"), or would this reading bite back and force the template to be placed against the hull and remove the length of the weapon from the "range"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1882882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevianID Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 While I like the solution for turret mounted flamer weapons, the problem is vehicles dont have a base. Yes, semanticly they have a 'base' of support but GW's defination of base is different, and vehicles/some walkers are baseless. Also raises the question of where to measure the flamer from on older bike models with a flamer weapon upgrade, like ravenwing bikers, as they also have no base included with the model The same question comes up with fire points and passenger flamer weapons, and that is even murkier waters as the firing model is seperate from the vehicle, unlike the vehicle turret question. Also, I noticed some people suggested extending barrels for their flamers to go past the hull... isnt the range measured from the hull/turret mount, though, not the end of the barrel? Or did that change in 5th edition? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1884318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 The point about most vehicles not having a base is something that bothered me too, by true RAW most vehicles can't ever fire template weapons if that's the case. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160240-heavy-flamers-on-a-turret/#findComment-1884326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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