CantonWC Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Well, my original thread seems to have died down (can still be viewed through the link at the bottom of my posts) and Commissar Molotov hasn’t replied in the last few days, unfortunately :mellow: So, I hope no one minds if I reboot and get off to a fresh start. I more or less have a clear idea now of where I want these guys to go, so I’m hoping to present a much more streamlined thread free of the rambling I had in my earlier thread. That being said, this “first draft” is still a far cry from being a true IA and will be presented in a list/outline format until I figure exactly how I want all the nice little words and sentences to fit together. That probably won’t be for a while, I’m not *that* great at writing and school is always crushing me. Index Astartes: Dark Swords Origins - Precise date of Founding has become uncertain; most Imperial Scholars believe the Dark Swords were part of the 8th, 9th or 10th Founding - Created from Raven Guard gene-seed; I haven’t decided yet which of the original four RG chapters they should descend from - Created in response to increasing xenos activity in Ultima Segmentum History - The Dark Swords crusade through the stars killing any and all enemies of mankind, until they reach Ultima Segmentum and pick a Home World and Sector to base themselves in. At this point they become aware, if they have not already, of the full extent of the damage done to the gene-seed by Corax. They are forced to come to terms with themselves and their views of Corax. - All is well and happy for a few hundred years - The Dark Swords receive a distress call from a nearby Sector that has fallen under attack by a minor Eldar Craftword -> The dispute is over a number of Maiden Worlds settled by the Imperium; the Eldar begin their bloody pogrom of Imperial-held worlds -> The Dark Swords are the closest Chapter to the Sector and resolve to hold off the Eldar until help arrives The XXX Campaign - Lasts approximately 2-3 years - First major Dark Sword campaign against the Eldar - The unique skills taught to the Dark Swords by their parent Chapter stand them in good stead here; their mastery of rapid deployment and ease of mobility coupled with a willingness to adopt unconventional strategies and change tactics on the fly results in a fighting force able to match the Eldar almost move for move. With the aid of the local PDF/Imperial Guard they are able to take the fight to the vile aliens and decisively win several engagements, despite suffering heavy casualties in the process - Eventually, more SM Chapters/Imperial Navy arrive to relieve the defenders; with their combined forces they are able to push the Eldar out of the Sector. There is much jubilation and consumption of alcohol Tragedy - The Craftworld Eldar the Dark Swords had opposed were consumed with hatred for the losses inflicted on them. Having lost the opportunity to retake their Maiden Worlds, the Eldar resolved to make the Mon-Keigh pay for their insolence. They waited until the Dark Swords returned to their home world before they launched a surprise offensive. Still under strength from the recent campaign and caught off guard by the ferocity of the assault, the Dark Swords were unable to muster a strong defense. The Dark Swords’ fleet was crippled or put to flight, and the Dark Swords were helpless to prevent the merciless Eldar from razing their home world. Only the timely arrival of the Imperial Navy drives off the Eldar attack. - The surviving Dark Swords swear a fell oath of vengeance, promising to dedicate themselves to the extinction of the Eldar race. They also swear that, no matter the odds, they would overcome this disaster, rebuild, and emerge even stronger from it. Home World - The true name of the Dark Sword home world has been lost in the annals of time; now it is simply known as the Maimed World. It is the closest thing the Dark Swords have to a holy site. - Speculated to have been a feral/feudal world with a temperate/semi-arid climate. I haven’t settled on a general idea of the culture(s) present on this world before the Maiming. - Has a number of moons; the largest moon is where the former Fortress Monastery is located, and it is where every fallen Dark Sword is laid to rest. Most of the moon’s surface is covered with a massive defense grid that has been gradually added to over the centuries. The Dark Swords will fight to the death to defend this dead place, for no other reason than to protect the memories here they consider most sacred. Home Sector - The XXX Sector as a whole is now considered the Dark Swords’ “home” (I guess they wouldn’t just get up and leave their original sector?) - The Dark Swords maintain friendly relations with their local Forge World and draw recruits from several different worlds in the Sector Fleet-based - Chapter fleet consists of (rough numbers here): 1-2 Battle Barges, 5-7 Strike Cruisers, and numerous escort vessels. They have gradually acquired new vessels over the millennia from their allies in recognition of their distinguished service. Agri-ships and forge-ships render the Chapter largely self-sufficient and capable of operating far from home for long periods of time without having to rest and refit. Chapter Organization - Broadly Codex adherent - More Apothecaries are attached to each Company to monitor the Chapter’s health and ensure as few Marines as possible are killed in battle, as it is far more difficult for the Dark Swords to replace losses than in other Chapters - Due to low recruitment rate and instability of gene-seed, the 1st Company Veterans strongly differ from the norm in their tactical application. They are typically dispersed and attached to each of the four Battle Companies acting as “Scouts” (but referred to by different names as a sign of their prestige and the respect they are accorded by younger Marines). They essentially operate as a special operations unit, covertly inserted behind enemy lines and clearing the way for the main strike force - Battle Companies are organized as 5 Tac/3 Assault/2 Dev - Reserves are organized as per the Codex - No Scout Company; maximum strength is measured at 900 fighting men - A small cadre of the most experienced Sergeants, Chaplain, Apothecaries, Librarian, etc. make up the “10th Company” -> This training cadre is equipped with a number of ships/Strike Cruiser(?), heavily modified for stealth and speed, and is tasked solely with seeking out and training new recruits for the Chapter. -> Training details are largely unknown, but it is believed that recruits undergo a “gauntlet,” a brutal training course that takes place over several feral/death worlds. At each stage they are given the choice to end the training and quit by the training Sergeants. The fate of those individuals who lack the will to continue is not recorded. As part of the final initiation they visit the Maimed World and the ruins of the original Fortress Monastery, though the purpose of this is unknown. -> Only the Chapter Master and a handful of senior officers know the whereabouts of the 10th Company at any given time. Combat Doctrine - Revere the Codex but regard it as a guideline rather than the ultimate military tome; to rigidly adhere to the Codex without deviation is to invite disaster. The Dark Swords are more than willing to go “outside the Codex,” fluidly employing conventional and unconventional strategies, often in tandem. The Dark Swords possess an uncanny talent for improvisation and adaptation, able to quickly assess rapidly changing battlefield conditions and reacting accordingly - Precise application of force; using the minimum effort to achieve the maximum effect. Attacks are directed at the weakest parts of an enemy force in order to break it apart; the isolated parts can then be destroyed piecemeal - Use of psychological warfare to gain a greater advantage over the enemy; psywar is abandoned for certain foes like Tyranids and Necrons - Heavy emphasis on mobility and rapid deployment; insertion via Thunderhawks and drop pods. Heavier vehicles are only used when the situation calls for it, as they are more difficult to transport and cannot be used for immediate support of a rapid reaction force - 1st Company Veterans are covertly inserted ahead of the main strike force; primary mission is to scout out landing sites for drop pods/Thunderhawks and gather intelligence on enemy positions and movements; secondary objectives are to undermine the enemy in any way possible – destruction of enemy materiel, sabotage of supply lines and communications, assassination of leaders, etc. - Avoid the use of heavy weapons in tactical squads, as they limit mobility; preference for special weapons because of their portability. Plasma guns are frowned upon because of their volatile nature, but flamers and melta guns see widespread use; in particular, the melta gun is favored because of its ‘overkill’ nature. (Am I missing something here? Scouts can get missile launchers and heavy bolters, so those must be fairly light) - Preference for short-ranged firefights and close combat - Devastators are used less frequently than in other Chapters because they are the least mobile troops; again, only used when the power of their heavy weapons can be exploited to their fullest extent - Bikes are used for harassment and rapid strikes; landspeeders (all variants) are heavily used, often for heavy support. Dreadnoughts are frequently used, inserted via drop pod and providing mobile heavy support - Assault squads are composed of the oldest and most experienced marines in the Company; they are used not only for close combat, but also harassment and tank hunting - Weakness/disdain for protracted conflicts and siege warfare; Space Marines are not meant to fight in such a manner anyway, and this is especially true for the Dark Swords because it is far more difficult for them to replace battlefield losses Beliefs - Concerning the Emperor - Concerning Corax - Humility - Fallibility and impermanence - The will to act -Manifest destiny - Change for the better - What is necessary, not what is wanted - Tactical Knowledge - Concerning xenos Gene-seed - Descended from the Raven Guard - Zygote cultures for the Betcher’s gland and Mucranoid are now extinct; the Melanchrome suffers from a unique mutation that causes the skin to become pale and the hair and eyes to darken - Due to Corax’s experiments the RG gene-seed was greatly damaged and suffered from a high degree of instability. Mutations ranged from relatively minor and inconsequential to life-threatening to beneficial. It was not uncommon for Marines to suffer from at least one defective organ or reduced/improved effectiveness of one or more organs; completely pure, stable gene-seeds were relatively rare and those Marines that received pure gene-seed were said to be marked for greatness. - Due to the zealous efforts of the Apothecarion over the millennia the Dark Sword gene-seed is now relatively pure and stable; however, mutations still occasionally crop up Chapter Symbol, Colors, and Markings Company Banners I have some neat ideas for Company banners if anyone would like to comment on them: - The Phoenix Resplendent – a red and gold phoenix hovering above a black urn -> The Phoenix symbolizes rebirth, obviously. The black urn represents death. The Phoenix is hovering over the urn because he has conquered death – he is born anew every time he dies. Similarly, the Dark Swords have come close to destruction (or at least severely depleted in numbers) a number of times in their history, but they have always returned as strong, if not even stronger than before. The Phoenix symbolizes their unconquerable spirit and the will to rise above one’s limitations. - A golden kite shield with bloody spikes -> The shield represents the Dark Sword belief that they are the “shield” of mankind, the watchers that protect against the encroaching darkness. The spikes represent the old adage that “the best defense is a strong offense.” The spikes are often adorned with the heads of defeated enemies – so a recent campaign against Orks will result in an Ork head or two added to the spikes. - A golden-armored figure wielding a black thunderbolt/a black thundercloud crisscrossed with lightning bolts -> The golden-armored warrior represents the Emperor; the image of the thunderbolt echoes the Dark Swords descending from the heavens in their drop pods and Thunderhawks to smite the enemies of mankind. - A stylized green and yellow planet covered in flames/pierced by a lance of blue light/dripping blood (Maimed World) -> A representation of their former home world and its suffering and destruction at the hands of the Eldar. The Maimed World is a frequently recurring motif in the Chapter iconography as a whole. This is to remind themselves of all the lives lost during those dark days, both human and Space Marine, as well as the “debt” they have sworn to settle with the Eldar. - A bloody crescent moon -> The Eldar regard the red crescent moon as an ill omen and a portent of disaster; the Dark Swords have learned this in the course of their efforts to learn more about the Eldar so that they may be exterminated more efficiently, and so they attempt to display the Red Crescent whenever they can in order to establish a psychological edge over Eldar opponents. Gradually the Red Crescent has become a symbol of great victory for the Dark Swords. Allies and Enemies Battle Cry/Motto - Do not typically make use of a battle cry; I don’t have the words for it, but I don’t think battle cries would mesh with their general attitude and philosophy - On rare occasions, the commanding officers/Chaplains will rally the troops with a shout of “we are the blades in the dark!” followed by the response “we are the watchers in the shadows!” Followed by a bloody slaughter :lol: - Some mottos I’ve been playing around with: -> Facta non verba – deeds not words; pretty fitting I think considering their general attitude -> De oppresso liber – to liberate the oppressed; motto of the United States Special Forces -> Who Dares Wins – SAS motto -> What is necessary, not what is wanted – homegrown motto :lol: ***** I hope this is readable; I don't have any idea how to format it to make it easier on the eyes, sorry :( Please post C&C to make this thing better. I'm starting to worry that I might have posted way too much detail :lol: Unfortunately, some things are missing; notably Beliefs, the heart and soul of the Chapter, is just a skeleton because it's an incredibly hard section for me to write and my writing energy is about spent. I hope to have something up next week. Till then this thing feels somewhat empty to me. In case the core themes did not show through enough here they are: - Spec. Ops.; cool-headed, disciplined, and pragmatic - The will to act; the will to endure; the will to rise above one's limitation - What is necessary, not what is wanted finally here's the bedrock and inspiration of my Chapter, as I posted before: The Will to Act Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The Phoenix Resplendent – a red and gold phoenix hovering above a black urn-> The Phoenix symbolizes rebirth, obviously. The black urn represents death. The Phoenix is hovering over the urn because he has conquered death – he is born anew every time he dies. Similarly, the Dark Swords have come close to destruction (or at least severely depleted in numbers) a number of times in their history, but they have always returned as strong, if not even stronger than before. The Phoenix symbolizes their unconquerable spirit and the will to rise above one’s limitations. Are you aware that Fulgrim used the Phoenix for that reason during the Great Crusade too? I think it would be a wonderful irony if the Dark Swords weren't aware of that, but we the readers were made aware. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/#findComment-1881113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CantonWC Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 Are you aware that Fulgrim used the Phoenix for that reason during the Great Crusade too? I think it would be a wonderful irony if the Dark Swords weren't aware of that, but we the readers were made aware. Well uh, no :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/#findComment-1881519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Commissar Molotov hasn’t replied in the last few days, unfortunately :) I'm sorry! Ironically, I was hoping to reply today. I've been caught through a series of unfortunate circumstances on a laptop without a mouse and with a very sensitive touchpad. It drives me mad when every thirty seconds my cursor's skittering off somewhere without me getting any say in the matter! I guess I'll curtail my reply in the other thread and just respond to this topic instead. So, my thoughts: -> You say in the Origins section that the precise founding is uncertain; why? Do the Chapter, at least, know? Where will you stand on the issue of narrative omnipotence in the IA article? -> I would argue that it's probably best to be drawn straight from the Raven Guard. We don't know how much the Revilers, Raptors and Black Guard have diverged doctrinally or theologically, so it's best for you to go straight from the Raven Guard. -> Whereabouts in the Ultima Segmentum? It is the largest of the five Segmentae, after all. History sections aren't a typical part of an IA article. If you can't condense the History section into other sections of your article, you're possibly telling us too much, and you'd be better-suited to making a supplementary addendum to the article. That said, you could use a sidebar to discuss the XX Campaign. What you'd probably have to do if you want an 'orthodox' IA is to condense what you need into the origins section, to talk about the 'tragedy' there and then use it as a springboard to segue into the Homeworld section. (Also, just be careful that you're not treading on the Invaders' shoes with the Eldar.) I do like the ruined homeworld - I've considered similar planets for DIYs before and I think it can work. The 'Home Sector' and 'Fleet-Based' sections should be condensed with the 'home world' section, as is appropriate for fleet-based Chapters like the Black Templars, Dark Angels and Blood Ravens. I do have to wonder whether the Eldar would have the firepower, time and such to completely eradicate an entire planetary population, though. To my mind they don't tend to reply on biological weaponry and the like, so it's a bit of a quibble. -> Interestingly when you talk in the Organisation section about '...as few Marines as possible are killed in battle...' it seems that an according element isn't mentioned in the Combat Doctrine section. It seems that the Captains would equally adopt tactics to ensure as few Marines as possible were killed in battle. -> The Tenth Company is interesting, and I don't think it needs to be in inverted commas. The Captain and the recruiting staff of the Tenth deserve recognition and respect for ensuring the future of the Chapter. I would say that the failed initiates would probably become Chapter serfs, though that's likely up to you. I also think that in order to keep with your paranoid tack, the Tenth Company should probably be divided up among several locations so a single overwhelming strike can't destroy it. The Recruiting Sergeants would have a great deal of latitude and might even be legendary figures among the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/#findComment-1881539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CantonWC Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I guess I'll curtail my reply in the other thread and just respond to this topic instead By all means post your thoughts in this thread. I would like to know what you thought about some of the thought fragments I had jotted down, and I'd like to know what you think of the Castigators - whether they are "salvageably good" and what their views on morality are. You say in the Origins section that the precise founding is uncertain; why? Do the Chapter, at least, know? Where will you stand on the issue of narrative omnipotence in the IA article? From a writer's standpoint, I couldn't decide whether they should be 8th or 9th, so I went "well, records tend be hazy or get lost anyway, so let's not make it clear when they were founded!" I wouldn't be surprised if many Chapters didn't know what Founding they came from. 10,000 years is a lot of history after all. Whereabouts in the Ultima Segmentum? It is the largest of the five Segmentae, after all I haven't had the chance to familiarize myself with the 'geography' of Ultima. I don't want to place them too far out, like Eastern Fringe far. I want them to be able to interact semi-regularly with other Imperial entities and with plenty of enemies too. (Also, just be careful that you're not treading on the Invaders' shoes with the Eldar.) ? I do have to wonder whether the Eldar would have the firepower, time and such to completely eradicate an entire planetary population, though. To my mind they don't tend to reply on biological weaponry and the like, so it's a bit of a quibble. I wouldn't put it past them. They claimed they could extinguish stars and create planets and all that jazz so it shouldn't be too much trouble to snuff out a feral/fedual world :D They just need to figure out a way to cause a massive extinction event. Ignite the atmosphere or something. Interestingly when you talk in the Organisation section about '...as few Marines as possible are killed in battle...' it seems that an according element isn't mentioned in the Combat Doctrine section. It seems that the Captains would equally adopt tactics to ensure as few Marines as possible were killed in battle. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. They're definately a lot like their Progenitors, they inherit much of the same attitudes and combat philosophy. They don't take battle lightly; they're extremely meticulous and cautious in their planning. They're trained to "expect the unexpected" and to allow for eventualities. At the same time, if they see an opportunity, they take it. Commanders are encouraged to rely on personal initiative, to 'go with the flow' and adapt to changing battlefield conditions. The Tenth Company is interesting, and I don't think it needs to be in inverted commas. The Captain and the recruiting staff of the Tenth deserve recognition and respect for ensuring the future of the Chapter. I would say that the failed initiates would probably become Chapter serfs, though that's likely up to you. I also think that in order to keep with your paranoid tack, the Tenth Company should probably be divided up among several locations so a single overwhelming strike can't destroy it. The Recruiting Sergeants would have a great deal of latitude and might even be legendary figures among the Chapter. Well, I only put it in commas because they're technically not really a Company. They're in a strictly training role, they don't lead any neophytes into battle because it's reckless to risk the Chapter's future like that, although Commanders may ask for them to serve in a frontline role if they feel they need their expertise. I think failed initiates turning into Serfs would be a good idea; now that I think of it I don't want to do a Blood Angels. "Okay, now you have to stay awake for three whole days, and if you don't, we'll take you away and no one will ever see you again, muahahaha!" It's just smoke and mirrors without really accomplishing anything. I would have to consider how their experiences affect their psychological state, because it's going to be hard to live down the fact that you were so close to becoming an Astartes, but just didn't have the will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/#findComment-1881964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Rex Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Better late than never getting to this. :P I have been busy with the Alternate Heresy Raven Guard IA so I am in a Corax mindset, but it is posted now so there is no excuse. The section I wanted to look at first was the Organisation one. Having seen lots of DIY chapters here in Liber I am of the opinion that the larger the deviation from the parent chapter's organisation, the more convincing the rationale must be. A lot of chapters throw in a wide organisational deviation in the absence of having anything else to say, and with no other connection to the chapter's theme. It is always worth considering where the trade-off or downside of their deviations would be - if there was no down-side then all chapters would be doing it. :) In your case, the organisational differences are pretty minor, so they require less of a rationalisation anyway, but here are how I see the changes and how they fit in with the character of the chapter: - More Apothecaries are attached to each Company to monitor the Chapter’s health and ensure as few Marines as possible are killed in battle, as it is far more difficult for the Dark Swords to replace losses than in other Chapters Do they also need these extra apothecaries to monitor the brethren for signs of genetic instability that would have to be corrected by altering their daily regime of chemotherapy? I can see that they would want apothecaries heavily present on the battlefield to make sure that every injured brother would be given the best chance to survive... but would this caution also extend to playing it safe and not participating in certain risky battles, or at least ensuring the odds are stacked heavily in their favour by making sure they outnumber the foe? Admittedly this would not be very Astartes-like... :P Another way to ensure their survival would be extremely intense training regimes or greater protection from the finest armour and weaponry, be it Terminator armour or artificer armour wherever possible for the leaders. Again, not sure how well that would fit in with the other chapter themes. - Due to low recruitment rate and instability of gene-seed, the 1st Company Veterans strongly differ from the norm in their tactical application. They are typically dispersed and attached to each of the four Battle Companies acting as “Scouts” (but referred to by different names as a sign of their prestige and the respect they are accorded by younger Marines). They essentially operate as a special operations unit, covertly inserted behind enemy lines and clearing the way for the main strike force Not certain why the low recruitment rate would force the first company to act as advance scouts. This role would normally be taken by the scouts as a valuable part of their training. The conventional scouts' carapace armour rather than the less nimble power armour is another reason they get this role. Why would the first company, I assume wearing power armour, be chosen for this role instead? The role sounds more like the Space Wolf type of scouts, so if you are set on this then an examination of how the SW do it might be in order. Also, if the first company is tied up on 'killteam' like scouting missions, then how does this impact on what their role would have been in a normal Raven Guard army, such as being the toughest warriors leading from the front to tear into the enemy lines? - Battle Companies are organized as 5 Tac/3 Assault/2 Dev- Reserves are organized as per the Codex I can see that if they favour Jump pack assaults then more assault marines would be the way to go I suppose. Given their dislike of heavy weapons would instead swapping a dev for an assault squad be better than losing a tac squad, or even saying that they purpously have access to more jump packs and that in some cases squads can forego their normal weaponry and go equipped with jump packs, bolt pistols and chainswords instead? This may be going too far for your theme. - No Scout Company; maximum strength is measured at 900 fighting men- A small cadre of the most experienced Sergeants, Chaplain, Apothecaries, Librarian, etc. make up the “10th Company” -> This training cadre is equipped with a number of ships/Strike Cruiser(?), heavily modified for stealth and speed, and is tasked solely with seeking out and training new recruits for the Chapter. -> Training details are largely unknown, but it is believed that recruits undergo a “gauntlet,” a brutal training course that takes place over several feral/death worlds. At each stage they are given the choice to end the training and quit by the training Sergeants. The fate of those individuals who lack the will to continue is not recorded. As part of the final initiation they visit the Maimed World and the ruins of the original Fortress Monastery, though the purpose of this is unknown. It sounds like they do have a tenth company - it just doesn't fight with the rest of the chapter. This just makes them unconventional rather than absent / non-existent, but this is more a matter of semantics. I would question how good an idea it is not to fight alongside the rest of the chapter during their training. It may well keep them safe from harm, and tie in with the extra apothecaries discussion at the top of the post, but they would be missing a strong link to their full brethren and a vital part of their training that couldn't be simulated that would put them in greater danger when they did eventually get thrown into the fire as full brothers. I am not proposing that they fight in pitched battles alongside the chapter, but their usual role of recon, infiltrating, skirmishing, assassinations etc that blow up eventually into full battles would seem a better introduction for them than fighting in isolation. If you are set on this, then thinking through and mentioning the consequences and down sides for the chapter would make it more characterful. -> Only the Chapter Master and a handful of senior officers know the whereabouts of the 10th Company at any given time. Why? Can't they trust the rank and file brethren not to betray them, or is this to stop those scamps in the seventh company from heading over there and giving the young'uns a hazing? What happens if the chapter master dies? Also, without the support of the rest of their brothers it sounds like a recipe for losing the whole scout company, and their genetic legacy. :huh: I certainly hope you don't take this as negative - I think that the best way to improve a good idea is to challenge it - and apologies if these questions have been covered in the previous discussion thread, as I came to check this one out first instead. Regards, Aurelius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/#findComment-1890448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CantonWC Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 I’m glad someone took the time to rez my thread from page 3 ;) I certainly hope you don't take this as negative - I think that the best way to improve a good idea is to challenge it - and apologies if these questions have been covered in the previous discussion thread, as I came to check this one out first instead. And that's fine, I was hoping someone would comment sooner or later to make me defend myself. That's the only way this will get better. I hope I can comment on your magnificent Alternate Raven Guard later on. Do they also need these extra apothecaries to monitor the brethren for signs of genetic instability that would have to be corrected by altering their daily regime of chemotherapy? I can see that they would want apothecaries heavily present on the battlefield to make sure that every injured brother would be given the best chance to survive... but would this caution also extend to playing it safe and not participating in certain risky battles, or at least ensuring the odds are stacked heavily in their favour by making sure they outnumber the foe? Admittedly this would not be very Astartes-like... That's pretty much the idea, yeah. They need the Apothecaries to watch the GS for the ever present threat of mutation, at least in the early years, and they need the Apothecaries on the battlefield to make the best out of what they have. Not certain why the low recruitment rate would force the first company to act as advance scouts. This role would normally be taken by the scouts as a valuable part of their training. The conventional scouts' carapace armour rather than the less nimble power armour is another reason they get this role. Why would the first company, I assume wearing power armour, be chosen for this role instead? The role sounds more like the Space Wolf type of scouts, so if you are set on this then an examination of how the SW do it might be in order. Also, if the first company is tied up on 'killteam' like scouting missions, then how does this impact on what their role would have been in a normal Raven Guard army, such as being the toughest warriors leading from the front to tear into the enemy lines? Well first off, I never really liked the idea that it's the greenest recuits being sent off on these recon missions. It doesn't make sense to me; other chapters might be able to do it, but I don't think the Dark Swords would, the recruits coming in are too few in number and too valuable to risk. Of course that leaves me with trying to figure out where the neophytes go after they finish training. I guess they just go straight into the Devastator Reserve, the theory being that they're a bit farther from the battle and so are a bit safer; it's not a perfect idea though :lol: for sneaking Veterans I definately took inspiration from Space Wolves and also from modern Special Forces units. Think LRRP actions; operations deep behind enemy lines with little or no support or contact from a central command. I think you're meaning to say that power armor is not as quiet as carapace armor? because I read all the time that power armor is like a SM's second skin, so there's no way it could be less "nimble" than carapace armor. in any case I am going with the assumption that power armor does not "sneak," as related to me by Marshal2Crusaders. I have this neat idea that the Veterans wear a special body suit under their carapace armor, a la Solid Snake's sneaking suit. the body suit would have the ability to interface with the Marine and increase his strength just like a regular suit of power armor, although not nearly to the same degree. For the "freaky disturbing 40K" feel, the muscle fibers of the suit would be derived from the Veteran's own muscle tissue. So in essence they're wearing a second layer of muscle over themselves. Then add in a tight-fitting helmet with autosenses and red goggly lenses for a ninja/SAS look. In terms of how overall combat doctrine is affected, Veterans openly confronting the enemy are certainly going to be rare, epic events. Terminator use is going to be rare; I think the most they would normally do is equip themselves with jump packs and the very best gear and weapons, and then smash into the enemy's weakest part acting as the tip of the spear. The line about them being the toughest warriors leading from the front was amusing to me for some reason. I was searching 'special air service' and came across this quote, supposedly attributed to an SAS commander that I think would be appropriate here: "If you think you are tough, then get out of here. I need people with brains." That's not to say the Vets aren't tough, because they are. But I like the attitude the Raven Guard has, putting emphasis on things like intelligence over raw martial prowess. I can see that if they favour Jump pack assaults then more assault marines would be the way to go I suppose. Given their dislike of heavy weapons would instead swapping a dev for an assault squad be better than losing a tac squad, or even saying that they purpously have access to more jump packs and that in some cases squads can forego their normal weaponry and go equipped with jump packs, bolt pistols and chainswords instead? This may be going too far for your theme. Well I wouldn't go so far as to say that they dislike heavy weapons. I think of them as being fairly rational and logical; they acknowledge that every weapon in their arsenal has its place and use. That being said they would probably opt for more mobile heavy support like Dreads and Landspeeders. I like to think of them as being tactically flexible, or at least they think of themselves as such, but their notion of tactical flexibility is shaped by the doctrines and preferences they have inherited. In the opinion of the Dark Swords, in most normal situations (ie without unusual objectives or circumstances) the most mobile fighting force is the most tactically flexible; because a mobile force can usually go wherever it needs to go, pick battles at the time and place of their choosing, and quickly reposition to counter unexpected developments. I don't even necessarily think of them as being assault heavy; they find assault squads fascinating for their mobility, not because their conventional role is to land on the enemy's head and have a scrum with them. They can just as easily be guerilla raiders or tank hunters. The mobility afforded by their jump packs means the things they can do are limited only by their imagination and appetite for destruction. I would question how good an idea it is not to fight alongside the rest of the chapter during their training. It may well keep them safe from harm, and tie in with the extra apothecaries discussion at the top of the post, but they would be missing a strong link to their full brethren and a vital part of their training that couldn't be simulated that would put them in greater danger when they did eventually get thrown into the fire as full brothers. I am not proposing that they fight in pitched battles alongside the chapter, but their usual role of recon, infiltrating, skirmishing, assassinations etc that blow up eventually into full battles would seem a better introduction for them than fighting in isolation. If you are set on this, then thinking through and mentioning the consequences and down sides for the chapter would make it more characterful. Well I think this goes back to the issue I have with the Scout fluff. I just don't like it, it makes no sense to me to send the most inexperienced marines out where they are literally eyeball to eyeball with the enemy. Now in times of relative peace they'd probably train alongside the Initiates as per normal, so they could establish a link that way. I've also thought that as part of their training they could be introduced to planets with low level conflict zones. Kind of like training wheels for the real thing. I'm still thinking about it though. Why? Can't they trust the rank and file brethren not to betray them, or is this to stop those scamps in the seventh company from heading over there and giving the young'uns a hazing? What happens if the chapter master dies? Also, without the support of the rest of their brothers it sounds like a recipe for losing the whole scout company, and their genetic legacy. Security reasons. it's interesting that you mention the possibility of betrayal, because I have given some thought to that as part of their beliefs (which I hope to have up soon). Not betrayal exactly, but fallibility. The Swords are well aware that no one is infallible; the evidence is right there in their gene-seed. They still feel the consequences of Corax's actions, maybe even up to the "present day." Now, only the Chapter Master and a few senior officers know where they are at any given time. The possibility of all of them dying on the same day is pretty slim, but I'll admit it's there :lol: Even so, there are a few Librarians/Astropaths (?) with the 10th so I don't think it would be too hard to reestablish contact. There's always the possibility that they might be discovered and destroyed, but I would argue that the whole point is to avoid being detected :lol: This is a flaw I kind of like though. not everything in a Chapter should be easy to defend. I like the idea of the Dark Swords constantly wondering if the 10th are going to return from their recruitment/training routes, trusting the wisdom and peerless might of the training cadre to safeguard the Chapter's future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/#findComment-1891184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'll admit now that I have not read all of the responses to all of your OP. Obviously, trainees survive their trials. They are inducted into the ranks as Marines. And that's it? I'm imagining a banquet or other inocuous event. The Marines are sitting around doing marine-y things. Do they talk to each other at all? Is there any conversation about ... stuff? Any discussion where they went, who was with them, what they experienced during their training? I would like to imagine that even though Space Marines are "more than human", that they still develop bonds of comraderie, trust, and loyalty - not only on the battlefield - but off the field as well. In the end, over hundreds or thousands of years, where a small "Inner Circle" know the exact location of the 10th Company (for various reasons), that the entire process is actually well known by the entire Chapter. Like James Bond, a paradox. Is this incorrect? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/160299-index-astartes-dark-swords/#findComment-1894638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.