Ironclad Melta

[Thantoes]

Just a quick question.

 

Do you loose the option of having a melta if you swap the Seismic hammer on an Ironclad for the chainfist. It says its built in so one could reasonably assume so. However , the fly in my ointment is this. When you swap the DCCW for the hurricane bolter it specifically says you exchange the DCCW and its built in stormbolter for the hurricane bolter. When you exchange the Sesmic hammer it just says exchange the hammer for the chainfist. No mention of the melta.

[eyescrossed]

No, you don't lose the Melta.

[Thantoes]

But if the weapon is built-in could it not be argued that if you replace the hammer then the melta has to go with it. I ask because I am going to build this up and I really dont want to have an argument during a game about this. Want to have all my facts straight as it were..

[Legatus]

Yes, the Melta is lost. It is a bit confusing that for the Ironclad DCCW it specifically points out that the built in stormbolter is lost as well if it is replaced with a missile launcher, but if you compare it to regular Dreads or Venerable Dreads, in their intries it does not say that the stormbolter is lost, but it is lost for them as well anyway. That the Ironclad entry specifically mentions it is confusing, but the Seismic Hammer has a built in Meltagun, and if the Seismic Hammer is removed, so is the meltagun that was built into it.

[Praeger]

This is all down to the wording

 

If it says "hammer with built in melta" then yes, loose the hammer loose the melta.

 

However - if it says "dread is armed with hammer and a built in melta" then no, if it says you loose the hammer then you dont loose the melta - cant look this up at the moment so could someone please double check?

[rat of vengence]

Well, it says in the datasheet p137 that it is a

Seismic Hammer(with built in meltagun)

The Wargear description in the Dreadnought entry on p65 for the Seismic Hammer makes no mention of the meltagun, leading me to suspect it is not part of the Seismic Hammer as such, but on the arm.

 

However, the normal Dread has a

DCCW (with built in stormbolter)

and we know that is lost when exchanging the DCCW for the missile launcher.

 

Gut says it is another DCCW of sorts, so why lose the gun, but I think this could be argued both ways. Does that picture of a Seismic Hammer floating around have a meltagun or heavy flamer attached to it? If the GW model has it, that might be a clue... :huh:

 

RoV

[Steelmage99]

and we know that is lost when exchanging the DCCW for the missile launcher.

 

How do we know that? Just a question and not a statement to the contrary.

[Lord Marius]

Page 73, BBB - there's a box explaining Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.

You lose any built-in weapons when the arm is destroyed (and the hammer is a DCCW as per C:SM)

 

That doesn't really answer the main point, but that's all I can find for the moment.

If you lose the built-in weapon when the arm is destroyed, it makes sense to assume that it'd go when you swap the arm for something else, but that's just conjecture.

[Steelmage99]

Page 73, BBB - there's a box explaining Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.

You lose any built-in weapons when the arm is destroyed (and the hammer is a DCCW as per C:SM)

 

Aha! There was the thing I had missed. :)

 

Anyway, I think we should just stick to the rules and what they tell us.

 

Hurrican Bolter requires both the DCCW and the Stormbolter to be used. Missile launcher does not.

[eyescrossed]

Okay, I think I was wrong ;)

[Thantoes]

The bit that is confusing me is with the wargear section (C:SM pg137) of the ironclad.

 

It says that the ironclas is armed with a Seismic hammer (with built in meltagun) and a DCCW (with built in storm bolter)

 

It then goes on to state that you can "Replace Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon and Storm bolter with a Hurricane Bolter"

You can also "Replace sesmic hammer with a chainfist"

 

Now when you replace the DCCW it specifically states that you have to take the storm bolter with you. Nowehere does it say that if you exchange the seismic hammer that you have take the meltagun away.

 

The confusing bit is that both the melta and stormbolter are built in but it looks like only one gets removed. Could it be because when you replace the DCCW with a hurricane bolter you are replacing a CCW with a ranged while when you replace the hammer you are simply exchanging 1 CCW for another?

[eyescrossed]

Well maybe I was right :)

[Steelmage99]

I'd say; "Stop over-thinking it, just do what the rules tells you to do".

[Legatus]

The rules for the seismic hammer tell you that it includes a meltagun. If you remove the seismic hammer, the weapon that tells you that it includes a meltagun is gone => the melta is gone.

[rat of vengence]

and we know that is lost when exchanging the DCCW for the missile launcher.

 

How do we know that? Just a question and not a statement to the contrary.

To be honest, I was judging that by the fact the missile launcher that comes in the box doesn't have a stormbolter on it, or provision for one.

 

The confusing bit is that both the melta and stormbolter are built in but it looks like only one gets removed. Could it be because when you replace the DCCW with a hurricane bolter you are replacing a CCW with a ranged while when you replace the hammer you are simply exchanging 1 CCW for another?

 

I think you have it there.

 

RoV

[Steelmage99]

It seems as good a justification as any.

 

Of course, most of the time I don't need a justification. I try to just follow the rules.

 

"Replace X with Y".....ok.

 

"Replace Z+P with Q"....ok too.

[Lord Marius]

One thing though, the chainfist is a powerfist that rolls 2D6 penetration, not a DCCW.

 

Unless there's something I've missed, it can't have a built-in melta (or built-in anything else)

Also, it'd strike at initiative 1.

 

Any thoughts?

[Thantoes]

One thing though, the chainfist is a powerfist that rolls 2D6 penetration, not a DCCW.

 

Unless there's something I've missed, it can't have a built-in melta (or built-in anything else)

Also, it'd strike at initiative 1.

 

Any thoughts?

 

I would say it really doesnt make a difference. Since I would be replacing the seismic hammer I with the chainfist while retaining the DCCW I would use the DCCW @ I4 in CC and the chainfist @ I1 against vehicles where it really doesnt matter since they dont strike back.

 

Of course, most of the time I don't need a justification. I try to just follow the rules.

 

As do I which is why I asked the question in the first place. To me it seems that since it doesnt say you have to remove the melta when you switch between Hammer and chainfist, while specifically stating that you do when you swap the DCCW with something else, implies that you dont have to. But I do like to have a number of opinions to draw upon when arguing my case either way.

[Isiah]

As do I which is why I asked the question in the first place. To me it seems that since it doesnt say you have to remove the melta when you switch between Hammer and chainfist, while specifically stating that you do when you swap the DCCW with something else, implies that you dont have to. But I do like to have a number of opinions to draw upon when arguing my case either way.

 

I agree Thantoes.

 

• The DCCW has a "built-in" storm bolter.

By RAW, on the Ven and standard Dread the stormbolter (or heavy flamer) isn't lost when the DCCW is replaced. But it is lost on the DCCW swap for the Ironclad.

 

• The Seismic Hammer has a "built-in" meltagun.

By RAW, the meltagun (or heavy flamer) isn't replaced when the Hammer is swapped for a chainfist.

[Legatus]

So... how does RAW allow a Dreadnought, which is not having a dreadnought close combat weapon, to have a stormbolter which is built into a dreadnought close combat weapon?

[Morticon]

So... how does RAW allow a Dreadnought, which is not having a dreadnought close combat weapon, to have a stormbolter which is built into a dreadnought close combat weapon?

 

Well....does it?

[rat of vengence]

I think Legatus point is that the weapon isn't stated as being replaced, but where is it, since the DCCW it was built into isn't there?

 

Back to what I said before I think.

 

Oh, Steelmage, you are not the only one 'following the rules' mate. I do believe that is the point of most of these threads, trying to be sure we are, despite some peoples wish to read things differently... :jaw:

 

RoV

[Steelmage99]

Oh, Steelmage, you are not the only one 'following the rules' mate. I do believe that is the point of most of these threads, trying to be sure we are, despite some peoples wish to read things differently... ;)

 

I agree. It was not my intention to imply that I was the only one following the rules.

 

I was merely trying to present the viewpoint that the rules don't always work in a logical way. What the rules tells us to do doesn't always seem realistic.....and that is ok. The "reality" of 40K is determined by the rules, not what we know about our reality.

 

When told to replace DCCW + Stormbolter with option A, we do so.

When, one line below, we are told to replace Seismic Hammer with option B, then we do so.

 

Questions/statements along the lines of; "Where is the Meltagun placed?" and "When a Weapon Destroyed is rolled the Meltagun dies along with the DCCW" are in my mind irrelevant. When we are told to replace the hammer, we only replace the hammer, as the line above shows that the builtin weapon is only lost when specified. That was what I meant with "just follow the rules". B)

[Seahawk]

It doesn't help that the FW dreadnoughts have the storm bolter modeled on the torso, not the arm, so that it in fact shouldn't be lost (because it's not attached to the dccw getting removed) but still is.

 

I was merely trying to present the viewpoint that the rules don't always work in a logical way. What the rules tells us to do doesn't always seem realistic.....and that is ok. The "reality" of 40K is determined by the rules, not what we know about our reality.

 

QFT.

[nighthawks]

It doesn't help that the FW dreadnoughts have the storm bolter modeled on the torso, not the arm, so that it in fact shouldn't be lost (because it's not attached to the dccw getting removed) but still is.

ah but the forgeword mkIV dread weapons come with a SB or some targeting array thing - DCCW comes with the SB, the heavy weapon "arms" come with the targetter. true for right and left arms. the arms for the plastic kit come without either except the DCCW, comes with a SB or HF.

 

either way, the model does not dictate the rules - I have a chaplain model with a BP and power fist which illegal now under C:SM but still a GW model, and not too old. everything in forgeworld's dreadnaught offerings predates the newest codex, too, so they can't be expected to reflect the current rules, either.