hartnett Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 HQ Calgar armour of antilochus Cassius 5 honour guard + relic blades + chapter banner all in land raider redeemer TROOPS 2 10 man tactical squads with flamers ELITES sternguard verterans 5 HEAVY SUPPORT land raider redeemer thunderfire cannon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bannus Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 I think you will get eaten alive with this list. 1500 points and only 35 models? Ouch. The problem with your list is that (outside of the compulsory Troops), you have largely taken the most expensive units possible. One mistake, one set of bad dice rolls and the game is over. A few "bling, bling" units are OK, but a whole army of them is not generally a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havokas Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 againt orks your more than likely to be hit with very large mobs of boyz, you just dont have the close combat or the wall of firepower to kill them fast enoufgh, is there no way you could make room for a wirlwind only 85 points or 70 for a basic predator, or a nice cheap squad of scouts with 50/50 close combat and shotguns to get plenty of hits in CC. sending them in before your main tac marines could give you the edge you despritly need with such a low model count, thunderfire cannon will need protection too seeing as its so easy to destroy, that why id recomend the whirlwind over it for pummeling large mobs, even if you do scatter a bit the mobs should be large enoufgh for you not to worry edit* just to scare you a tad, what happens if the land raider redemer gets destroyed within 2 turns or blows up with all your HQ inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Charging into orks with elite units is a good way to get them all killed. The boyz mobs are so good at throwing buckets of dice. The only way to effectively charge them and not get killed on return fire/charge is to separate off chunks of the army. You can use your landraider to do it on round 2 but you have to do enough damage to a single mob in round 1 to make it fail a morale test. *NOTE - all of the following is conjecture - I haven't tried it yet. But I will soon. If the mobs (O1 - O4) are strung out in a line: O1 O2 O3 O4 Try to concentrate on a single mob (O2) during round 1 of fire - enough to either break it or make it vulnerable to a tank shock. Then in round 2, charge into O2 with your Land Raider (LR) for a tank shock. Then using your tank to shield your elite units (E), charge them into the mob (O1). The new battle line should look something like this: O1 E LR O2 O3 O4 It doesn't matter which way O2 goes on the tank shock, so long as 1) O3 and O4 are unable to fire on your elites and 2) O2 doesn't prevent you from charging O1. Just roast O2 with the flame cannon to finish it off. As for the best elite unit to charge into a boyz mob, take a look at a shooty terminator unit with a heavy flamer. I haven't tried it but I mathhammered it a while back. Should be effective at breaking a single ork mob of 20 boyz in one round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 It is always better to charge an Ork mob than be charged by it. When NOT on the Charge, it takes 6 Boyz to kill one Power-Armoured Marine. Conversely, 6 ASM with 2 CCWs will kill 5 Orks, average. A Nob with a Klaw will average 1.25 kills per round Marine Sgt with a Power Fist is also 1.25 KPR. Orks are fearless when above 10 models in the Mob. The upshot of all of the above is that an Ork mob reduced to under 15 can almost certainly be broken in one combat round, and one at 20 model will probably die in two combat rounds, by a 10 man ASM Squad. The former will probably cost you 3 ASM, the latter will likely cost you 7 ASM (4 the first round, 3 the second). Note that Bolt Pistol and Flamer numbers are not included above. For reference, each Bolt Pistol is 0.333 Ork boyz, and the Flamers are going to be 50% effective vs. Orks. Assuming 7 dead Boyz from a round of ASM fire is not unreasonable. As comparative math, recall that on the charge, it's only 3 Orks to kill one Marine. Ork boyz are exactly twice as nasty on the Charge as not. So essentially the plan would be to shoot them up a lot first, and then charge when the Ork mob drops to low numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hells Guardian Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 This is my anti ork 1500pt list has worked for me every time, you dont need special units you just need as many bolters as possible pummeling the boys and use your heavy weapons to take down approaching trukks. also Pedro is great cause you get the stubborn special rule whic is useful as you most likely wont move from your table edge and so in assualt you cant afford to run away and also all your units will be so close together you will get +1 attacks for being near pedro. 1500Pts Orks Pedro Kantor = 175pts Heavy Support = 360pts Devastator Squad 2x Lasacannons 2x Missiles = 190pts Whirlwind = 85pts Whirlwind = 85pts Troops = 680pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Heavy Bolter = 170pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Heavy Bolter = 170pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Missile = 170pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Missile = 170pts Elites = 285pts Dreadnought Assault Cannon and Missile Extra Armour = 140pts Dreadnought Lasacanon and Heavy Flamer = 145pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain_quint Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 what about the cover saves orks get when massed in large mobs? the case when you can't see 50% of the unit because the units are intermingled (or some word like that). They all get a 4+ cover save from shooting. suddenly half of the casualties you thought you get are saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Personally I think a unit of Honour Guard with Chapter Champion armed with a Relic Blade and a Chapter Banner in the unit, lead by a Master with Relic Blade and Chaplain, in a Landraider, will be very effective against Orks. That little lot costs 730pts, which while expensive, is not as bad as you think. In a standard Space Marines army you will likely have a Landraider and Captain/Master anyway, so you are only paying a little more for the Honour Guard over a Tactical squad and adding a Chaplain to the squad. However you will need to bulk out your list a little more to stop yourself being outnumbered too severely. Here is what I would do with your list at in your first post: HQ Chapter Master - Relic Blade = 155pts 5x Honour Guard - Champion with Relic Blade, Chapter Banner = 225pts Cassius = 125pts TROOPS 10 man tactical squads with flamers & whatever free weapon you fancy = 170pts 10 man tactical squads with flamers & whatever free weapon you fancy = 170pts ELITES 8x Stern Guard - powefist = 225pts in Rhino = 35pts HEAVY SUPPORT Landraider Redeemer = 240pts Thunderfire cannon = 100pts TOTAL = 1,445pts and With the points spare you can give a Tactical squad a Rhino and have 20pts left for odds and ends. The Sternguard can work with the Honour Guard and Redeemer; the Honour Guard charges a unit (and will kill roughly 15 WS4, T4 models on the charge!) while the Sternguard can blast a unit next to the charged Ork unit. If the Orks counter charge the Sternguard, you have 14 attacks + 2 Powerfist attacks to do some damage back, plus the Honour Guard will likely be free in your turn to help our or move on. Ideally the Redeemer will target the same unit as the Sternguard to really hurt the opponents army in 1 turn (as the Honour Guard can take care of themselves). And with 3 transports, one a Redeemer, your Thunderfire will enjoy blitzing squads at range unmolested for a while. Now personally I would only have the guts for a single expensive unit, so I would choose between either the Honour Guard and Sternguard (no I wouldn't, I would choose the Honour Guard every time!), but I think you could pull it off. If you drop the Stern Guard, you can have another Rhino mounted Tactical squad, which bumps up your numbers, mobility and flexibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hells Guardian Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 what about the cover saves orks get when massed in large mobs? the case when you can't see 50% of the unit because the units are intermingled (or some word like that).They all get a 4+ cover save from shooting. suddenly half of the casualties you thought you get are saved. nah thats not possible, you do it if the majority of the unit is in cover you can not use the unit istelf to supply cover for itself, if they where behind another unit then yes but not if its just them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkrieg861 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Calgar sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartnett Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 how he is a good special character, a bit expensive but amazing non the less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 how he is a good special character, a bit expensive but amazing non the less I'd ignore posts like that. They add nothing to the discussion, nor are they intended to. If Calgar fits in with your army, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkrieg861 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I think he is over priced for what he does. Being able to choose when to pass or fail a save is nice, but the cost for this character is off the wall. And powerfists on something that pricey... I dunno, seems like asking for a beatdown if you ask me. I cant wait until someone fights me with one so I can dump my whole army on him and his unit. As for the other guy who said I contribute nothing... you suck... that is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havokas Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Troops = 680pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Heavy Bolter = 170pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Heavy Bolter = 170pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Missile = 170pts 10 Tactical Squad Flamer and Missile = 170pts Elites = 285pts Dreadnought Assault Cannon and Missile Extra Armour = 140pts Dreadnought Lasacanon and Heavy Flamer = 145pts how is a 10 man tac squad only 170 points? there 115 for 5 then 190 for 10 marines then an extra 10 pts for the missile launcher or heavy bolter and an extra 5 for the flamer? thats just getting the numbers from codex. could sombody please clear this up for me? so i know for my army list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 To me Calgar is powerful enough to warrant escort with just a Tactical squad, but that't just me. Stick Calgar in a full Tactcal squad mounted in a Landraider and you can put a world of pain on any unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tual Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 hmm calgar and HG - very very effective - I took them to a tourney at 1750 points and I came 11th of 92 players - I hit 3rd place but dropped and drew my last two games of 8 - Calgar and HG have a 2+ save - orks cant deal with that - In 2 combat phases - I destroyed 60 orks + a warboss in combat - I charged two units, one of 15 and one of 20 something - utterly destroyed them - they either broke or took a horrendus amount of saves and died - I lost no HG - I was then charged by a warboss and 25 boys - I killed the warboss with marneus - marneus lost two wounds - I killed 13 or so boys... (each guard has 2 attacks base + 1 for weapon + 1 more for banner and one more if they charge - the champion has a WS of 5 with 6 attacks - and I too had a chappy so re-roll hits all round..) He suffered almost as hard from the attacks as being fearless - I lost two HG - And that was a good chunk of his fighting str - The mega armoured nobs copped it next turn.. Marneus has destroyed soo many untouchable units - His 7 PF attacks on the charge with re-roll hits and wounds whilst having 4 wounds himself and eternal warrior makes even Killer fex's run.. He has his bomb, ap2 storm bolter and his god of war rule - He is a steal! never ever underestimate him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain_quint Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 how is a 10 man tac squad only 170 points? there 115 for 5 then 190 for 10 marines then an extra 10 pts for the missile launcher or heavy bolter and an extra 5 for the flamer? thats just getting the numbers from codex. could sombody please clear this up for me? so i know for my army list tacticals base point is 90 for 5 men. 10 men are 90 + 16 x 5 = 170 flamer and ML are free. Check your dex again, but now a little closer. btw. I came up with those cover saves for orks because of this situation: 0 = ork unit 1 x = ork unit 2 / = ork unit 3 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / x 0 / x 0 / x 0 / x 0 / x 0 / x 0 / 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / 0 x / in this way you cant see 50 % of any of the unit. I encountered this once, found it so cheesy, that I let him place every ork of his 3 units of 30(he instead asked if he could just push his models over the table like some dice, because he felt that it was obvious what he was trying to do). The battle lasted then only 2 turns because of the time he needed to position all of his individual orks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 I think he is over priced for what he does. Being able to choose when to pass or fail a save is nice, but the cost for this character is off the wall. And powerfists on something that pricey... Congrats, you contributed something. Next time you want to say 'XYZ sucks' (including me, apparently), try to think about why XYZ sucks. Then try to type it out for the rest of us so we might share in your nuggets of wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Come on dude, no need to be narky. I encountered this once, found it so cheesy, that I let him place every ork of his 3 units of 30(he instead asked if he could just push his models over the table like some dice, because he felt that it was obvious what he was trying to do). The battle lasted then only 2 turns because of the time he needed to position all of his individual orks. Wow, that was a naughty way of playing the game, yet woefully inefficient. Sure it helps in the shooting phase, but then if you just move close to them, flamer 'em, and finally charge then, you will hurt 3 units badly. Each unit will suffer from the combat resolution. Honour Guard can do it easily enough. Sure they may lost a few models to the Ork Nobz, or but you can potentially take care of 54 models in one turn there. More than worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkrieg861 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Look, breadthief2000, it was a harmless gesture. I apologize if I've hurt you beyond repair. For that you have my largest regrets... well maybe not but anyways... I just don't Calgar is worth taking. He seems a bit over the top in both his rules, and his points. I could never justify taking him in anything but an Apoc game. I wouldn't want to dump that many points into a single model. I would however take Kayvaan Shrike but he is infinately more useful and essentially allows you to create a fast moving assault oriented army. I do also feel there are not enough models and heavy bolters in a list against Orks though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Look, breadthief2000, it was a harmless gesture. I apologize if I've hurt you beyond repair. For that you have my largest regrets... well maybe not but anyways... I just don't Calgar is worth taking. He seems a bit over the top in both his rules, and his points. I could never justify taking him in anything but an Apoc game. I wouldn't want to dump that many points into a single model. I would however take Kayvaan Shrike but he is infinately more useful and essentially allows you to create a fast moving assault oriented army. I do also feel there are not enough models and heavy bolters in a list against Orks though All of that makes sense except for the breadthief2000 comment - I assume this is another poster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luku Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Lots of Troops, flamers and Whirlwinds....thats a Anti-ork list! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserstole20 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Lots of Troops, flamers and Whirlwinds....thats a Anti-ork list! :( Yeah, when it comes down to it. I'll add - find a way to take the charge away from Orks. Blow them up on the way in, get the charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Lots of Troops, flamers and Whirlwinds....thats a Anti-ork list! :( Yeah, when it comes down to it. I'll add - find a way to take the charge away from Orks. Blow them up on the way in, get the charge. That's probably printed somewhere in the Codex Astartes. In Bold. And Underlined. In Large Print; Thou shalt always seek to deny Orks the opportunity to charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gathurn Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 how is a 10 man tac squad only 170 points? there 115 for 5 then 190 for 10 marines then an extra 10 pts for the missile launcher or heavy bolter and an extra 5 for the flamer? thats just getting the numbers from codex. could sombody please clear this up for me? so i know for my army list don't know what codex your using but flamers and ml or heavyy bolters r free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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