An Anthropological Study of 40k

[Leonaides]

just a thought that occurred to me - and I still need to have a proper look through the original post - but we keep assuming that the Imperium has the knowledge and capability to create space marines. They dont. They have the knowledge and capability to just about not fall too far behind on the upkeep of a system overseen and instigated by the Immortal Emperor. Maybe they really really dont know how to implant it into females. Maybe seeking to understand the workings of the E, and alter/improve them is seen as worthy of a flamer bath (cursed founding?).

[Messanger of Death]

I meantioned that in my edit Leonaides. In Imperial Armour Volume 1 it looks at STC and how without them there would be very little in terms of development of new constructions. It even describes how the forge worlds (the great industrial planets of the Imperium) are just replicating the technology and that some are just better then others at doing it. And further more there is a source (cant remember where, was either White Dwarf or the GW website) that talked about how even space marines dont understand the functioning of certain things within their own body and as a result it has become very religious with lots of rituals. However it would still be possible to make female marines. Or would it since the Emperor himself didnt create female marines and he was/is the smartest human. Maybe due to the nature of the Emperor's gene seed and those of his son's that it has to be a male (but then there are the missing primarchs which opens up the possibility...). So rather then ask can we do it (because from our view point it is possible) the question is should we do it? Should we create female marines that are equal to male marines? In my opinion for those that want to make female marines then go for it. However it would be considered hersey and no loyal chapter would stand being on the same side as the 'abominations'.

 

Cheers, Messanger

[Prathios]

I don't have a lot of time to respond but one thing I will point out is again that you cannot present a complete or even moderately informed or objective argument in this without using the black library books. I know it adds an almost overwhelming amount of material to sort through and process but unfortunately it is cannon and as such adds to the mythos and universe of 40k.

 

The universe does not appear as digressive as you present it when looked at through this lens because the books tend to talk about the culture far more than the codices. There are a wealth of powerful, important, and smart female characters represented in the BL books.

 

Take the Horus Heresy books into account and enjoy the wealth of females that have important parts. Non of them are space marines but that doesn't keep them from contributing a massive amount to the tales. The ecclesiarchy was all but founded by a single saint who was indeed female. The entire Emperor's Children Legion was brought low by a single female vocalist.

 

The female members of the Eisenhorn and Ravenor retinue are hugely important to the stories and without them the books would simply not have been particularly good. Inquisitor Amberly Veil in the Ciaphas Cain series is a key mover and shaker in the stories and is actually the Narrator.

 

So you very much need to broaden your source material before you can actually make these assesments of the 40k universe because you are actually leaving out the majority of the information. Essentially you are looking at the waves rolling in on the beach and making assessments on the ocean. Now I think what you have is actually very good, but it is limited in its scope.

 

Also the Imperium is harder to compare to gothic or perhaps 900-1200 medieval Europe due to the fact that in those barbaric times the ways in which they acted was based on cultural norms and lifestyle that was learned, whereas the behavior of the Imperium is in large part utterly necessary. The sacrificing of psykers, the Inquisition, the complete domination of the enemy with no quarter given is all 100% necessary for the survival of mankind. The Imperium is strangely practical in some matters while being wildly impractical in others. Of course much of this is based on 50,000 years of the Emperors planning.

 

On another note you talk about the Marines ability to reproduce themselves through gene-seed. Unfortunately women are necessary in this process because the marines need a living human being to use the gene-seed on, and since the marines themselves are sterile they need a thriving population to produce this genetic stock. Now as for your argument that a women can been modified to be just as effective as a man, there are two points. One that has already been made is that its not quite that simple and a study in biology will reveal that while similar results are possible total equality is not. But the biggest problem for a marine women would actually stem from recruitment. A standard, un-augmented female would have to pass and survive all the physical trials and rise above everyone else physically before even being implanted. And sadly due to the ridiculously difficult but necessary challenge involved in these trials it would be a million to one odds on an un-augmented female besting the best of the best male athletes in these trials. Namely if the finest several female athletes on the planet competed in death trials against the finest male athletes on the planet how many of the women would make it to the final cut?

 

Modern society stresses equality of men and women but this cannot be applied to a universe as cruel as 40k. Anthropology stresses the importance of being aware of ethnocentrism in your findings and you have to look at it from what a person living in their universe would see. Women and men are both equally capable of performing duties in society, but those duties must take on different forms based on our strengths and weaknesses. For instance a man is better at lifting heavy objects while a women is better at multi-tasking. As you said women often make better fighter pilots because a female body is actually better able to handle g-forces and again multi-task. But assuming that for all things Women and Men are equal is foolish as they can be as different as night and day, especially in terms of mental and emotional stresses. In 40k you find this is very popular in the fluff. You find females in roles such as commander, psyker, mechanicum adept (even forge master), admiral, Inquisitor, assassin, and all other manner of very distinguished and important roles. But you don't see space marines...

 

It is possible for a women marine to exist but it would be extraordinarily odd. It would not fit the culture, or in general terms fluff. So if someone does it I won't necessarily argue but I would point out that its effectively a battle that would never happen due to the unlikely nature of such things. It simply wouldn't happen in the 40k universe. 1 female Marine would be a miracle but a chapter of them is for all intents and purposes ludicrous.

 

Fantastic thread, and a very thoughtful read Paulson.

[paulson games]

Nice reply and some very valid points. When doing an anthropological case study it's always very important to cite root materials and frames of reference, because every author or study can produce greatly differing results or interpetations. For example if I only study one small village secluded within the black forest of germany I can't state that I have extensively studied all of german culture. Other regions may have very differant dialects, customs and cultures what is true for that one village may not be found anywhere else in the country, so often you need to set a very strict or narrow parameter for the study. (which in this case was strictly the core rulebook material and codexes)

 

Additionally it's not a hard science like chemistry, it's a series of observations that are painted entirely by the individual's frame of reference. If two people go and observe the same village thay may have greatly differing views of the same subject, each influenced by their personal emotions or differing thought processes. One may observe cultural nuances that the other completely misses or considers insignificant etc.

 

 

 

As for story telling and writing the key differance between the core mythos of the 40k universe and the expanded setting is how they are approached as a story telling device. The core setting usually does not need a realistic level of detail as it is a non-interactive setting, you do not need to know the exact laws and make up of the universe because you are simply witnessing the setting as the story teller wishes it to be portrayed. This person is the hero this is the enemy, these are the cast of main characters, how we get to this point is mostly irrelevant and is down played because what we are focusing on the the present cast. There's just enough minor detail to create the illusion of a plausible reality, but when examined in depth we see that there's not a lot of detail nor is the created universe self sustaining. You don't usually have a greater picture of the background beyond what is immediately needed for the story.

 

Now in the expanded universe then you need to start injecting higher level of details, universe history, cause and effect situations to justify the currant exsistance and why the reality is believable. Also repercusion of currant acts that shape the future of the setting. This type of reality is important for ongoing series of stories. Character presented in this type of setting typically need more complex and human motives in order to appear believable.

 

Using star wars as my favorite example, the original movies are all pretty much self contained and don't need much outside detail to make them feel complete, you are simply viewing a story from start to end. It doesn't matter where the stormtroopers came from, or how the technology of the starships or weapons work, while it provides the visual backdrop it has very little to do with the story which functions independant of any universal laws. You are witness to how the universe works as opposed to being told how/why it works.

 

The force is mysterious, Jedi are good, there's only 3 left, they need to stop the empire, done. That's all we need to know in order to make the universe relevant for the story.

 

Now we move to the interactive setting, multiple movies, multiple books, multiple chapters, etc. This is where we need to start filling in the gaps, and building on the frame work because if we don't the suspension of disbelief becomes too cumbersome for the audience to believe/follow. Not only does a huge range of details need to be added but they have to shape and maintain a set of universal laws, that have to unite across all of the expanded works. We can't have a lightsaber function as a sword in the original movie, but then in sequal movie it can suddenly fire beams like a blaster, because the laws of what a light saber are have been put firmly in place and need to be followed if the audience is to accept the setting "reality".

 

But in the first non-interactive setting a lightsaber could be both a sword and a blaster, because you are told "this is" rather than knowing how it is supposed to be.

 

In order to provide a deeper level of reality the expanded universe needs finer details like the stormtroopers come from cloning tanks, lightsabers are powered by crystals, particuarly in a roleplaying setting when you are creating a setting in which the players make their own character and interact with the story, beacuse you are trying to experience the setting through your own mind rather than just viewing it as a witness. There is an underlying need to connect this type of expanded setting directly with your own understanding of real world reality, because from the moment you are born you are questioning what drives every touch, sound, smell, every action that makes this world function the way it does. Human beings are ingrained to seek out patterns, order, laws in order to process their reality into a set of rules by which they can understand it. When you try and place yourself inside a fictional world/character you try and apply those same details to your view, often your mind filling in gaps in details that you may not actually read.

 

When you are reading a story in first person perspective your mind seeks to create sights and sound that function under laws you have known your whole life even if it is in a fantastic setting. In order to generate a sense of reality you make automatic connections to the order of the real world, only changing the ones you are told specifically don't apply in the fictional reality. For example you see a group of male characters, natural assumption is that there are women somewhere even if you never see them because that is how the real world opperates. Unless told otherwise you apply the natural reasoning and connecting it to an order structure that you've been doing unconciously your entire life.

 

If the expanded story only depicts males characters and never once portrays a female then you start disbelieving the setting unless a reason is given for why a primal order/law is not in place, but you can tell a self contained story without needing to justify why there are or aren't women in the setting, or why the sky is red on tattoonie. In the expanded setting you have to provide a reason where all the stormtroopers come from if there's no women around because you are trying to make the mental connections required to make the setting believable. You get told they are all clones and a new law is created in the mind to fill in the gap, now that the mind has an answer it's plausible even if completely fantastic or created from something non-exsistant.

 

 

That's all of course an incredibly long winded way to say that the core setting is a self contained story that you are witness to how things "are told", so it makes a framework/background that makes sense even if there's huge gaps of missing information. How do bolters work internally? who cares. Marines use them to kill people, and they make machinegun noises, that's all we need to know.

 

Then as you seek to expand into greater complexity of what makes this part of the universe function you need a higher degree of order and structure that isn't required (or found) in the foundation framework. How do bolters work? they are advanced firearm, firing electrocharged explosive submuntions blah, blah, blah.

[paulson games]

Gene seed is a very interesting god-hood style device, The source material needs to come from a human, which typically means it was born from a man and woman, or maybe even a human clone produced in a lab. Despite where the material comes from only a Marine can make another Marine through passing on the geneseed. No matter how great they are no man or woman can be the equal of a god-like empowered Marine because they are beyond the reach of human beings. While marines come from humans, in a way marines are no closer to humans than if Marines came from dogs and cats, at least in the way that the setting depeicts them. They look like people speak their languages but they are an entirely diferant race.

 

The alegory would be something akin to what's in the bible, God picked up a handful of dust and shaped it into man. Man was no longer dust and dirt he was something entirely new that could now give life to a whole race (with the help of women) But in the fashion of true gods Marines can take their pile of dirt (regular humans) and transform them into Marines by imparting their lifeforce/geneseed, there's no male/female counterpart needed for the process, all they need is a pile of raw dirt to start with.

 

True god-hood is often reffered to as having not only the power to grant life to ones creations but that same life will be able to create and self engineer itself to perfection. For example, man can create machines but they are imperfect, machines cannot reproduce themself or change their own design. Meanwhile God created man, who in turn can reproduce and can change their bodies and minds through science to make themselves better. Many sci-fi settings explore this concept, like the terminator series where man achieves a level of god-hood in creating a true machine-life that can not only reproduce itself but can improve itself. (ultimately deciding to replace mankind)

 

In the 40k universe the science is at a level that they can clone bodies to provide the genetic base for Marines. They in essence have reversed the cycle and man has now created a god, not just another man or lesser creature.

 

Which is a theory about when the end of the world will come.

[Marshal Rohr]

It is just taking 10,000 years.

[paulson games]

10,000 years for man to evolve is just the blink of an eye when compaired to the time that earth and the various galaxies have been around :P

 

A single galactic day according to the Mayan calandar is 5,125 years, the majority of real world recorded history is effectively less than a day old. By 40k time it comes out to being just over a week old, pretty fast growth cycle when you look at it that way.

[Quasarcq]

What it really comes down to is that 40k as a multi-authored creation is just a perpetuation of Western/European thought. I don't think much on how intentional or unintentional the biases are, they just are there within the game universe.

 

I get a strong sense of the machismo/marianismo dichotomy a play in the 40k universe or at the very least with the Imperium. Many of the major factions at arms operate outside common society: Space Marines, Sororitas, Grey Knights, Inquisitors. The guard I suppose would still have families and common mortal attachments. Model-wise guard are nearly all male save the OP stuff.

 

So that leaves the only distinctly female force, the battle sisters. Who are far more removed from human society than even Space Marines. While Space Marines can still serve public functions like lords of planets and such, Battle sisters do not. I am fairly sure that in the unlikely even a Space Marine Fathered a child (I've never heard anything that would prevent this biologically. Anyone know more about this?) there would be no real corrective action, the Marine would probably distance himself from the child/family and move on. If a battle sister was reported to "give in" to desires of the flesh, it would be nothing less than off to the sisters repentia for her. To me this says more about the culture that created the 40k universe than anything else.

 

What I find even more interesting is the resistance to the idea of female space marines. Setting aside the sci-fi biological arguments, I have witnessed a lot of people who flat out do not like the idea. In a sci-fi universe, just about anything is possible when people think of it, but it seems like female space marines is something that just isn't allowed in many minds who associate with the game. Again that says something about the culture that created 40k.

 

Those are some brief thoughts I just had. I am in no mood to write a thesis on this.

 

And just for the record since we are on the topic of Anthropology, Archaeologists do not dig dinosaurs, thank you.

 

And if the association doesn't make sense, then you are on the other side of the pond.

[shatter]

I've always been fond of Frank Herbert's science fiction. Dune and so on and his earlier books feature the same themes. It's kinda cute to read them after his prized works as one can track the development of his ideas, but that aside, he did make a galaxy-spanning armies of women as well as elite specialists, also women.

 

However, his universe was mostly devoid of xenos! No exterior threat.

 

All of his women operated on manipulation, control and domestication. They were set to guard humanity from itself through a pacification pogrom. I think in this, he was spot on for the propensity of womens' psychology to be based more around nurture and control than destruction and conquest. However, there's always plenty of exceptions as individuals can always be found that buck the trends. The exceptions being women that didn't so much nurture as enslave men... to do the fighting for them. Which, if you ask me is very sensible.

In short, the trend to express force may be male, but that doesn't stop women from doing it.

 

These days, good science fiction (as opposed to Staw Wars which is simple melodrama in space, not science fiction, if you ask me) is full of females in traditionally male roles. technology is the great leveler in this. Testosterone and body mass count for little when you're in command of automated forces.

 

Iain M Banks has probably got the better part of the handle on the sci-fi zeitgeist at the moment.

[Prathios]

What it really comes down to is that 40k as a multi-authored creation is just a perpetuation of Western/European thought. I don't think much on how intentional or unintentional the biases are, they just are there within the game universe.

 

I get a strong sense of the machismo/marianismo dichotomy a play in the 40k universe or at the very least with the Imperium. Many of the major factions at arms operate outside common society: Space Marines, Sororitas, Grey Knights, Inquisitors. The guard I suppose would still have families and common mortal attachments. Model-wise guard are nearly all male save the OP stuff.

 

So that leaves the only distinctly female force, the battle sisters. Who are far more removed from human society than even Space Marines. While Space Marines can still serve public functions like lords of planets and such, Battle sisters do not. I am fairly sure that in the unlikely even a Space Marine Fathered a child (I've never heard anything that would prevent this biologically. Anyone know more about this?) there would be no real corrective action, the Marine would probably distance himself from the child/family and move on. If a battle sister was reported to "give in" to desires of the flesh, it would be nothing less than off to the sisters repentia for her. To me this says more about the culture that created the 40k universe than anything else.

 

What I find even more interesting is the resistance to the idea of female space marines. Setting aside the sci-fi biological arguments, I have witnessed a lot of people who flat out do not like the idea. In a sci-fi universe, just about anything is possible when people think of it, but it seems like female space marines is something that just isn't allowed in many minds who associate with the game. Again that says something about the culture that created 40k.

 

Those are some brief thoughts I just had. I am in no mood to write a thesis on this.

 

And just for the record since we are on the topic of Anthropology, Archaeologists do not dig dinosaurs, thank you.

 

And if the association doesn't make sense, then you are on the other side of the pond.

 

The reason marines cannot father children is... they're sterile. A side effect of the biological modification is that it makes them sterile. This is one more bit of foresight on the Emperors side. He understood that marines needed a control mechanism. So he designed them to be sterile and non-sexual. Sex drive is almost totally removed from their biological processes, mental and physical. As far as I know the only marines to be recorded as even having sex are the Emperors Children after they turned during the heresy, and even then they were doing it with each other which wont exactly produce any children.

[Brother Hadafix]

i am guessing you are getting your forces stats from the US forces, as there are no female fighter pilots in the RAF due to the design in the pressure suits and Aircraft. Also as has been pointed out they are unable to meat the fitness standards. Not looking to get in to a dispute over this, but as the RAF carry out more low fly manoeuvres than US counterparts, I would also have to call you out on reaction speeds an that alone. Same goes for all UK counter parts as fighter pilots.

 

I challenge your facts in a few areas. 1) males do, according to studies have high spacial awareness than females. If you can source your findings to counter this then I may have to go over mine. 2) You are also forgetting logic processing in which males generally fare better. This would be very use full in prosecuting war and tactics. 3) You would have to go out of your way to physically make a woman as strong as a man from before the selection process, and going from BL a lot of worlds would not possess that science. 4) Mental stress, which again going from work (in predominately male traditional work) related patterns, males are less prone to, namely depression. In a situation where you are likely to be pulling a gun on women as well as children it is easier to programme a male for unemotional responses to do so then it is a female where it is more biologically imprinted not do to so.

 

As much of how the gene seed works is unknown, there could be a further element not yet discussed. However, as far as anyone knows, it is for what ever reason not done. This is probably due to the what has already been mentioned as recruits are taken unaugemented to start with.

[Prathios]

i am guessing you are getting your forces stats from the US forces, as there are no female fighter pilots in the RAF due to the design in the pressure suits and Aircraft. Also as has been pointed out they are unable to meat the fitness standards. Not looking to get in to a dispute over this, but as the RAF carry out more low fly manoeuvres than US counterparts, I would also have to call you out on reaction speeds an that alone. Same goes for all UK counter parts as fighter pilots.

 

I challenge your facts in a few areas. 1) males do, according to studies have high spacial awareness than females. If you can source your findings to counter this then I may have to go over mine. 2) You are also forgetting logic processing in which males generally fare better. This would be very use full in prosecuting war and tactics. 3) You would have to go out of your way to physically make a woman as strong as a man from before the selection process, and going from BL a lot of worlds would not possess that science. 4) Mental stress, which again going from work (in predominately male traditional work) related patterns, males are less prone to, namely depression. In a situation where you are likely to be pulling a gun on women as well as children it is easier to programme a male for unemotional responses to do so then it is a female where it is more biologically imprinted not do to so.

 

As much of how the gene seed works is unknown, there could be a further element not yet discussed. However, as far as anyone knows, it is for what ever reason not done. This is probably due to the what has already been mentioned as recruits are taken unaugemented to start with.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but 4) looks totally false. Right now single white males are the leaders in depression. Males in general suffer more often than females from depression. I'm not sure how this matters to the topic at hand but I thought I would point it out. If your point is guys are less emotional I think that ones just a no brainer.

[Brother Hadafix]

Not according to what I could find on google it isnt. Generic search on highest depression rates by gender has women higher then men as far as suffers go in the information that first comes up so is most likely (not definitely) the most up to date info.

[Prathios]

Not according to what I could find on google it isnt. Generic search on highest depression rates by gender has women higher then men as far as suffers go in the information that first comes up so is most likely (not definitely) the most up to date info.

 

Hmm those figures have indeed undergone rather radical changes since a couple years ago when I last looked at them. Granted thats my fault for not double checking my facts. However one thing this study does not correlate well with is the suicide rates. The question you have to ask is what is the relationship between depression and suicide? Because as of the most recent study which was (granted) 2005 (In the U.S. I'll also add.) white males were over four times as likely as women of any race to commit suicide. As a matter of fact out of the 32,000 people who commit suicide in 2005 in the U.S. 23,000 of them were white men. So I'm gonna go ahead and say guys get a bit more down on life than women. I think the suicide rate is far more accurate a picture of who gets depressed than polling data from the several top research pages on google (I googled it after I read your post.) Because the questions they ask aren't as reliable as people offing themselves.

[Brother Hadafix]

Not according to what I could find on google it isnt. Generic search on highest depression rates by gender has women higher then men as far as suffers go in the information that first comes up so is most likely (not definitely) the most up to date info.

 

Hmm those figures have indeed undergone rather radical changes since a couple years ago when I last looked at them. Granted thats my fault for not double checking my facts. However one thing this study does not correlate well with is the suicide rates. The question you have to ask is what is the relationship between depression and suicide? Because as of the most recent study which was (granted) 2005 (In the U.S. I'll also add.) white males were over four times as likely as women of any race to commit suicide. As a matter of fact out of the 32,000 people who commit suicide in 2005 in the U.S. 23,000 of them were white men. So I'm gonna go ahead and say guys get a bit more down on life than women. I think the suicide rate is far more accurate a picture of who gets depressed than polling data from the several top research pages on google (I googled it after I read your post.) Because the questions they ask aren't as reliable as people offing themselves.

 

Problem is suicide my not just be a symptom of depression, there is also the whole "hara-kiri" aspect, like bankers jumping out of their offices in the 1930s etc. I will admit that when faced with a problem that cannot be fixed, at leased not one that can be seen, are more likely to go to extremes if there is that one way out that they can think off. This sort of fits in with what is known with the world of 40K. How many times has a marine made a stand where a more rational choice would be to retreat? Why? Honour and pride. When it comes to violent crime and robbery, again you will find that it is mostly males. Some of this is sociological as females, typically, can fall back on social groups with no loss of pride, males, typically, cant. I will agree that this is probably more nurture than nature, but the SM seem to work in a similar way, with the health morally and mentally being more the look out of brethren and the chaplain. However, SM are typified in the Death or Glory role that is much more masculine then feminine.

 

I would put this down (although I am not an expert on psychology) to a nature in males to push extremes (studies have found that males are more likely to take big risks due to some part of the brain (add to reasons for male only marines)) than totally dependent on depression levels.

[Prathios]

Problem is suicide my not just be a symptom of depression, there is also the whole "hara-kiri" aspect, like bankers jumping out of their offices in the 1930s etc. I will admit that when faced with a problem that cannot be fixed, at leased not one that can be seen, are more likely to go to extremes if there is that one way out that they can think off. This sort of fits in with what is known with the world of 40K. How many times has a marine made a stand where a more rational choice would be to retreat? Why? Honour and pride. When it comes to violent crime and robbery, again you will find that it is mostly males. Some of this is sociological as females, typically, can fall back on social groups with no loss of pride, males, typically, cant. I will agree that this is probably more nurture than nature, but the SM seem to work in a similar way, with the health morally and mentally being more the look out of brethren and the chaplain. However, SM are typified in the Death or Glory role that is much more masculine then feminine.

 

I would put this down (although I am not an expert on psychology) to a nature in males to push extremes (studies have found that males are more likely to take big risks due to some part of the brain (add to reasons for male only marines)) than totally dependent on depression levels.

 

I think we are largely in agreement then. A Space Marine would be resistant to any kind of depression or suicidal thoughts. I don't think standing ground against impossible odds or what have you is Hari-Kiri. Last man standing actions or such in war may be suicidal but it isn't committing suicide so to speak. I'm strangely at a lack of words to describe it but perhaps its the connotation. Suicide is largely held with disgust, while going out in a blaze of glory against the enemy is held with esteem. But back to the main point. I think the whole bottom line on this is that males tend to make better soldiers do to their mentality. Or am I overstepping myself. (surely not!)

[Quasarcq]

Perception on suicide is still largely a cultural thing. Not every culture or society believes that you will go to hell for killing one's self. Maybe in 40k if you kill yourself people believe that its like turning your back on the Emperor and he will not protect your soul. I'm too keen with 40k human perceptions of the afterlife. I know there is reference that human souls are unstable in the warp and basically crumble, unlike say eldar souls (Slaanesh kibble). But I am not sure that would even hold true. I can picture a IG officer using a cyanide like caplet to safe guard vital info from mind probes. However I couldn't see a SM doing this under those circumstances. Where I do see a possible acceptable case of suicide is in the case of an Exterminatus or something extreme. Say if a mission of battle sisters were left on a condemned world I could see them committing a mass suicide (including destruction of sacred gear) to prevent them from perversion or corruption.

 

It seems like this topic has deviate and shifted a lot. I suppose it would since its trying to grasp the social constructions of a sci-fi universe.

 

I know I stated that I wanted to avoid the biological arguments, but here is my 292 cents....

 

One thing I will add is that I scoff at the idea of gene seed needing the Y chromosome, or it truly being sex linked. Hell, there are many genetic mutations where a phonetically female person has a Y chromosome (an possibly have viable ovarian development). If you want to see controversy just do a little random research on genetic sex testing in the Olympics and sports. Genetics are not WYSIWYG. Development is what determines the final product. Genes get turned on and off at certain times in the development process and it is the on off schedule that is not predetermined. Female space marines are a developer/fan taboo, this is probably the main reason they are avoided, not really anything that has to do what could happen.

[Prathios]

Perception on suicide is still largely a cultural thing. Not every culture or society believes that you will go to hell for killing one's self. Maybe in 40k if you kill yourself people believe that its like turning your back on the Emperor and he will not protect your soul. I'm too keen with 40k human perceptions of the afterlife. I know there is reference that human souls are unstable in the warp and basically crumble, unlike say eldar souls (Slaanesh kibble). But I am not sure that would even hold true. I can picture a IG officer using a cyanide like caplet to safe guard vital info from mind probes. However I couldn't see a SM doing this under those circumstances. Where I do see a possible acceptable case of suicide is in the case of an Exterminatus or something extreme. Say if a mission of battle sisters were left on a condemned world I could see them committing a mass suicide (including destruction of sacred gear) to prevent them from perversion or corruption.

 

It seems like this topic has deviate and shifted a lot. I suppose it would since its trying to grasp the social constructions of a sci-fi universe.

 

I know I stated that I wanted to avoid the biological arguments, but here is my 292 cents....

 

One thing I will add is that I scoff at the idea of gene seed needing the Y chromosome, or it truly being sex linked. Hell, there are many genetic mutations where a phonetically female person has a Y chromosome (an possibly have viable ovarian development). If you want to see controversy just do a little random research on genetic sex testing in the Olympics and sports. Genetics are not WYSIWYG. Development is what determines the final product. Genes get turned on and off at certain times in the development process and it is the on off schedule that is not predetermined. Female space marines are a developer/fan taboo, this is probably the main reason they are avoided, not really anything that has to do what could happen.

 

Seems like on your second paragraph you missed my last several arguments on this. I don't argue it has anything to do with the chromosomal makeup of an object. Perhaps that is an explanation of how it works from some people but my point is it never gets that far to be tested. Just scroll up a look at a few of my posts.

[Marshal Rohr]

Fighter Pilots are exceptions to most rules. Thats why we let them fly such expensive stuff.

[Gree]

There's lots of women leaders in warhammer fantasy, both Bretonnian and Empire materials are choke full of female heroes and leaders. Their source materials depict their cultures as being on the up and up rather than in massive decline.

 

No, Brettonia has one female hero and she was implied to be an exception. The Empire has none in game or fluff. where are you getting that from. I know that's not strictly power armor but if you are comparing Fantasy and 40k the Empire is not that much of an improvment over the Imperium.

 

I mean look at the Tau, they have one female hero. the Dark Eldar have two or three and they are very very nasty.

 

This was well witten but I don't agree with it anywhere.

[Evil eyeball]

There's lots of women leaders in warhammer I mean look at the Tau, they have one female hero.

 

The tau also have no way to determine male/female status without stripping their clothes off as unlike humans there women don't have any visible differences from their men...

 

Who's to say other than the people who wrote "He" or "His" for people like Aun'Shi or Commander Puretide, Farsight etc etc that they arent women

[Brother Hadafix]

Problem is suicide my not just be a symptom of depression, there is also the whole "hara-kiri" aspect, like bankers jumping out of their offices in the 1930s etc. I will admit that when faced with a problem that cannot be fixed, at leased not one that can be seen, are more likely to go to extremes if there is that one way out that they can think off. This sort of fits in with what is known with the world of 40K. How many times has a marine made a stand where a more rational choice would be to retreat? Why? Honour and pride. When it comes to violent crime and robbery, again you will find that it is mostly males. Some of this is sociological as females, typically, can fall back on social groups with no loss of pride, males, typically, cant. I will agree that this is probably more nurture than nature, but the SM seem to work in a similar way, with the health morally and mentally being more the look out of brethren and the chaplain. However, SM are typified in the Death or Glory role that is much more masculine then feminine.

 

I would put this down (although I am not an expert on psychology) to a nature in males to push extremes (studies have found that males are more likely to take big risks due to some part of the brain (add to reasons for male only marines)) than totally dependent on depression levels.

 

I think we are largely in agreement then. A Space Marine would be resistant to any kind of depression or suicidal thoughts. I don't think standing ground against impossible odds or what have you is Hari-Kiri. Last man standing actions or such in war may be suicidal but it isn't committing suicide so to speak. I'm strangely at a lack of words to describe it but perhaps its the connotation. Suicide is largely held with disgust, while going out in a blaze of glory against the enemy is held with esteem. But back to the main point. I think the whole bottom line on this is that males tend to make better soldiers do to their mentality. Or am I overstepping myself. (surely not!)

 

Space Marines tend to act in the same way as most warrior cults (the majority of which have been male.) And to this end would rather "fall on their sword" (Hara-Kiri I have switch to using an Eng UK spell checker as I am getting irritated with red lines under words that I know are spelt correct)) than be taken alive. This maybe be seen in different ways such as dropping a belt of grenades when the enemy finally over runs them, to fighting when the only out come that can be is SM is s Swiss cheese.

 

For modern armies fighting conventional warfare this aspect has been taken away with different conventions, although, the Afghan war is more or less "dont be taken alive". I only know this from speaking to some that are in the British Forces.

 

IMO it is for the biological and psychological make up of males that they are chosen over females for SM. As has been said, you could probably, after spending more time and money do the same to add female to make them more masculine. But then why not just enhance a male to make them better fit for purpose still.

[Grimtooth]

Sticking within the realm of scifi (and not digressing to trying to bring in reality) I would point to what was probably one of the inspirations to Warhammer 40k, Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein.

 

Within the alternate reality that Heinlein created, the Mobile Infantry (M.I.) was composed entirely of men and men alone. A superbly trained and superbly equipped fighting force that was comprised completely of males. However within their armed services, at which the M.I are the proclaimed best, even they respected and held regard for the female ship captains and pilots. Several times throughout the novel the female elements of the armed service are pointed out as being the perfect in setting up a combat drop or saviors in the case of a dangerous retrieval.

 

In the society created by Heinlein, women had better spatial awareness, fine reflexes, and mathematical and thus when going into federal service, they were inclined to be chosen for pilot training. Of course this is contrary to what may or may not be our societal view that men are better at mathematics and sciences, but we are talking alternate society so we have to give some leeway to how it was written into the novel.

 

Now, one thing that has been touched on in this thread as well as in Starship Troopers was the sanctity of womanhood. They are viewed as the baby makers in time of war, they creators of humanity so that humanity can go on.

 

Within Starship Troopers it is touched on by the main character that when preparing to combat drop and when locked into the drop capsule, the last voice heard is that of the female captain. And that hearing that female voice, the reason why they are fighting for the survival for humanity (woman and procreation) goes down with him to the planet where he will be fighting. As I touched on, the savior aspect comes back into play when it is a woman pilot picking them up on the retrieval. This also slightly touches on why they probably do not have women within the M.I. in that it is one thing to know what you are fighting for but quite another to see what you are fighting for disemboweled in front of your eyes.

 

Now in regard to the 40k universe, the aspect of the space marine and what he fights for has been elevated. The God-Emperor and the survival of mankind has trumped the basics. As has been said, in the grim future there is only war. The basics of survival have come down to only surviving through conquering your enemy and religion that tells you to do it. There is no love, there is no compassion, and there is no thought of creating the family unit.

 

Those basic tenets of survival are then cast upon the only really explored females of the 40k universe, the Sisters of Battle. There is no biological clock ticking within the sisterhood only a fanatical conviction and worship of the God-Emperor and his agenda to cleanse the impure and ensure a future for humanity. The survival of mankind and the religion that dictates it surpasses what would be most female desires to settle or create the family unit.

 

So in regard to the actual topic of why we don't see female space marines.

 

Psychologically, I don't think that there isn't one Sister of Battle that would not want to become a full fledged space marine. The act of taking the emperor's geneseed into themselves would seem to lend itself into a culmination/reward of their vows of celibacy with some religious overtones akin to the Virgin Mary. We already see this with the current rulesets and Acts of Faith and the emperors power working through them in diverse ways.

 

Physically speaking, I find it very hard to believe that the processes that have led to the creation of space marines would be strictly limited to males. The current stock of space marines are not genetically created from birth, but chosen from a vast genepool. This lends itself to the geneseed itself being quite capable of adapting or just plain working with a vast number of dna variations. That alone would lend itself to being adaptable to a woman. Just for laughs, but in seriousness also, women do experience child birth. Something that a man is neither capable or completely able to comprehend in terms of pain and inner strength which would be an element to consider in the actual transformation.

 

However, ideologically speaking, I don't see within the realm of 40k women becoming space marines. The Sisters of Battle, in my opinion, seem to be a ying to the superhuman space marines yang. While they are saintlike within their battle nun factories and worship of the emperor, they still remain a link to humanity. The space marines have severed that link. If the 40k universe was to declare peace among all races tomorrow, technically the sisters could rejoin humanity while the space marines could not. They would be an obsolete dinosaur from a past time.

[Marshal Rohr]

You are 100% right about the Starship Troopers comparison, think of Cadia. Every man is taken into service shortly after birth. I imagine Cadia is a cross between Heinlein's Earth and a Neo-Sparta (the ideals, not the themes).

[Rain]

Hmm interesting topic, though I think the overall theme of the 40k mythos if you will goes farther than the denial of traditionally female virtues and themes like compassion and to a basic denial of the worth of humanity itself. Space Marines are "male" but only nominally so, I think the more important issue is that they are not exactly human. The point is that in order to preserve itself humanity must basically bastardize itself into sterile walking tanks.

 

Furthermore, the best hope of humanity was the Emperor who was not human either, at least not by any standard we would use. Now yes, he did profess humanity, but then he also claimed that there was nothing beyond the normal range of experience even though he knew there was so his words can't really be taken at face value. So a superhuman diety is the only thing that brings humanity some hope, and after he is incapacitated/killed the silly monkeys go back to their dark age paranoia and fear of toasters. Very all around misanthropic and not just misogynistic.

 

Actually this also goes to the point about 40k being based around human history and the attitudes of the 40k world mirroring our own past years. I am really not sure how well this holds as I think 40k is a kind of parody more than it is direct allegory with the point being to mock the problems with human society and how our less savory aspects have manifested (and now continue to manifest) with the marginalization of women just being one thing among many though I would say it is not even near the largest or most salient issue.

 

Therefore, I really don't agree that female marines would interfere with the feel of the universe as long as they were also sterile single minded killing machines, which is I think more to the point than the fact that said killing machines once had these or those sex organs. So female marines? Sure, but they get the whole package so they all look like bald gene freaks too, as long as that stays the point of the fiction remains.

 

Oh and the Aliens series is a "bright" story? Really? Maybe the second one a little, but the first one was one of the most nihilistic movies Hollywood has ever dared create