An Anthropological Study of 40k

[chaplaincliff]

If you are aiming for a lighter more hopeful version of 40k than the standard canon; female marines would be a good source to project that, it does mess with the god emperor mythos a bit though.

 

If you inject the feminine nature into marines or go so far as to transform the emperor an empress instead it entirely re-defines the setting. By most western social norms an empress entity cannot be such a feared and wrathful god as the 40k emperor is portrayed, because it's not in the female nature to be such. Yet we have tons of male gods in fiction like zeus, mars, odin that are nothing but exceedingly powerful tyrants.

 

I just need to fix this and quick when I noticed this, there are many female warrior aspects amongst the old-gods.

 

Morrigan: Celtic Goddess sometimes known as the battle queen, she presides over the battle field as a carrion crow or a raven.

 

Badb: Celtic Goddess sometime known as the battle crow, she would change battles as she saw fit to come to her end.

 

Athena: Grecian Goddess, held war and wisdom as her domains

 

Minerva: the Roman version of Athena

 

Sakhmet: Egyptian Goddess of war and divine justice

 

the Valkries: Nordic female goddesses who chose who is slain in battle, one notable Valkrie is Freya

 

ok, so this may seem odd to a lot of folks out here, but in modern culture we have only been in a patriarchal society for about 2000-2500 years, with the matriarchal societies dominating the globe till roughly the rise of the roman empire or a little sooner. The imprinting and thus belief that the female cannot fight on the level of the male is a complete and utter fallacy. many warrior cultures in the past have had ferocious woman fighters, notable amongst the Celts of Ireland England and France, the Germanic tribes in central Europe and the Nordic women of the Vikings. The continued saying that women cannot fight at the level of men is wrong and should stop.

 

ok so now that i am done with my ranting.

 

according to fluff women cannot be implanted with gene-seed as that the gene-seed is programmed for men, i would see that the nasty body-builder stuff would happen to the women that would try this.

 

sorry to de-rail the current conversation, i just had to mention my say.

[paulson games]

However none of those cultures were a monotheistic religion/culture, which is what defines the gothic period of history. You can reference tons of various female deities and roles from older cultures, yes they are out there, but they are not relevant to the gothic period because they pre-date it or came about after the gothic period passed.

 

In a reflection of the real world gothic age, 40k ascribes to a single god (the emperor) it is not an assembled cast of gods & godesses to portray the full spectrum of humanties aspects & emotion. The role of a monothesitic/singular god is much more rigidly defined than an ensemble of dieties within a broader patheon. A singular god figure defines all exsistance, where in a patheon multiple gods only contribute parts to the greater exsistance. Aspects and beliefs that clash with the rigidness of the singular god are meant to be controlled and surpressed, rather than being embraced as a sub part of the patheon structure.

 

In the real world gothic period everything was dominated by the catholic church, if you disagreed with the views and priciples of the church you burned, there was no negotiation or re-interptation of church law to suite the taste of the individual follower. That is the style that lays the foundation for the 40k setting, you follow the traditions and word of the god emperor, if you deviate you burn.

 

 

Oh and the Aliens series is a "bright" story? Really?

 

I was refering to Ripley's heorine character being the sole source of light and hope when she is surrounded by an exceedingly dark, oppressive and hopeless setting. The story/setting is very grim full of dispair but her character qualities are not.

[chaplaincliff]

However none of those cultures were a monotheistic religion/culture, which is what defines the gothic period of history. You can reference tons of various female deities and roles from older cultures, yes they are out there, but they are not relevant to the gothic period because they pre-date it or came about after the gothic period passed.

 

In a reflection of the real world gothic age, 40k ascribes to a single god (the emperor) it is not an assembled cast of gods & godesses to portray the full spectrum of humanties aspects & emotion. The role of a monothesitic/singular god is much more rigidly defined than an ensemble of dieties within a broader patheon. A singular god figure defines all exsistance, where in a patheon multiple gods only contribute parts to the greater exsistance. Aspects and beliefs that clash with the rigidness of the singular god are meant to be controlled and surpressed, rather than being embraced as a sub part of the patheon structure.

 

In the real world gothic period everything was dominated by the catholic church, if you disagreed with the views and priciples of the church you burned, there was no negotiation or re-interptation of church law to suite the taste of the individual follower. That is the style that lays the foundation for the 40k setting, you follow the traditions and word of the god emperor, if you deviate you burn.

 

 

yet the 'gothic age' to which you prescribe as an age in human history was not truly and age at all but an architectural and artistic style that came about in the years just before the reformation.

 

--FOR THOSE EASILY OFFENDED STOP READING NOW, STRONG OPINIONS AND DEBATE SURE TO FOLLOW--

 

What makes a deity? One way to define deity could be a being, real or imagined, past or present, that receives prayer and adoration as a being of power beyond that of the norm, some examples in real life include the christian god known as yahweh (yes that's his/her name, more on that later), the god emperor, and the omnisiah. some other examples that one would not think of but have been deified are the catholic saints, yes, the have been deified to the point of breaking the christian ten commandments, the reason being is that the Catholics will pray to the saints to help them with specific things rather then their god first, yes, this includes Mary, mother of Jesus. in fact the god of the Christians is a three fold god, that is three separate entities with in a triumvirate, a triple god form if you will, this is strikingly similar to the Celtic triple god or goddess ideal. The same god Yahweh is in fact a two fold god/goddess combination with the ancient kahbalist god Yah and goddess Weh combined into a husband wife set of a singular dual god/goddess.

 

That all applies to the 40k realm as well, the god emperor is worshiped, along with the omnisiah, along with all the saints, hell, there is a living goddess in the form of saint Celestine.

 

I hope I sparked some good debate, there was no intent on flaming or starting a flame war.

[paulson games]

The "gothic period" also refers to a time span during europes dark ages. The dark ages lasted for about 900 years (until 1500) where the gothic period is the later 300 years of the dark age time period, between 1200-1500. The culture, art, and writing heavily influenced by the outbreak of the black death and the inquisition.

 

At time of the black death a huge portion of the population died and those that survived knew as many dead as they did the living, that is why there is the prevalant presence of the deaths head and skeletal figure of death in so much of the periods art. Where the dark ages were a period that the entire cultiure was in decline, during the "gothic" period of dark age the entire culture and scociety was in complete collapse both from internal and external factors. The external was the plague, and the internal was the inquisition. The culture was being consumed by fear and self destruction, to which the only answer was faith, but blind adherance to faith was one of the key factors causing the downfall.

 

That's what we see in 40k, humanity is in decline their exsistance is defined by war and death the only hope they have is the word of the emperor, but the emperor's word demands only endless war, further consuming mankind. Death constantly surrounds humanity be it an external xenos threat, or the threat from within. (inquisition) Those that are faithful die in battle, those that lack faith die being purged by the inquisition, no mater which way you turn death is humanity's only option.

 

"the end is near" being the thematic core for the gothic dark age setting

[Brother Hadafix]

The "gothic period" also refers to a time span during europes dark ages. The dark ages lasted for about 900 years (until 1500) where the gothic period is the later 300 years of the dark age time period, between 1200-1500. The culture, art, and writing heavily influenced by the outbreak of the black death and the inquisition.

 

At time of the black death a huge portion of the population died and those that survived knew as many dead as they did the living, that is why there is the prevalant presence of the deaths head and skeletal figure of death in so much of the periods art. Where the dark ages were a period that the entire cultiure was in decline, during the "gothic" period of dark age the entire culture and scociety was in complete collapse both from internal and external factors. The external was the plague, and the internal was the inquisition. The culture was being consumed by fear and self destruction, to which the only answer was faith, but blind adherance to faith was one of the key factors causing the downfall.

 

That's what we see in 40k, humanity is in decline their exsistance is defined by war and death the only hope they have is the word of the emperor, but the emperor's word demands only endless war, further consuming mankind. Death constantly surrounds humanity be it an external xenos threat, or the threat from within. (inquisition) Those that are faithful die in battle, those that lack faith die being purged by the inquisition, no mater which way you turn death is humanity's only option.

 

"the end is near" being the thematic core for the gothic dark age setting

 

Although I would dispute some of your dates (Black Death being a major problem in the 1600s and the Inquisition only really had power in some european countries at the time of its existence) the majority is how I see it. Through in some Dickens for good measure and it is about there.

 

ChaplainCliff. The thing you got to remember about gods, is that they are, when looking from a mythological perspective, based upon elements and the human interpretation of such. Boadicea was not a fighter in her self but did lead an army. There is little to say that she fought much in the battles and mostly rallied the troops. It was also the fact that the celts allowed women warriors that the Romans found barbaric, as well as some other practices. Do not take this the wrong way, but your brining up of the Romans is rather amusing to me, as it is from them that we get the stereo type that women should be indoors doing the domestic stuff and that they are more or less commodities, if you want to go back as far as Roman to the 1900s.

[paulson games]

Although I would dispute some of your dates (Black Death being a major problem in the 1600s and the Inquisition only really had power in some european countries at the time of its existence) the majority is how I see it. Through in some Dickens for good measure and it is about there.

 

The inital outbreak of plague ie black death occured in 1347 (in central euope) but it had appeared in parts of asia minor, asia and the middle east a few years earlier. Outbreaks of black death popped up every couple decades until the 1700's the repeated outbreaks varied in scope and severity. The inital wave that occured in the mid 1300's was by far the worst outbreak and decimated the major population centers.

 

Dickens is a child of the "modern industiral" era, you can incorperate some Dickens-esque elements into 40k as well but it is a distinctly differant genre, connections with Orwell's writing can also be made, as they are all bleak and generally hopeless settings. But it's still the gothic era that provides the overall defining imagry and culture of 40k. Crisis of faith vs damnation and the supernatural, a dark age culture on the brink of destruction is the hallmark of the gothic genre.

 

While man's society is vicious and oppressive with dickens and orwell they are still societies that are "progressing" at the cost of the human element, gothic is a dark age recession of man losing all elements of their culture and their advancements/acheivements simultaneously sliding backwards.

[Brother Hadafix]

I suppose then it would be more drawn from the 1100's to the 1300's. After that you see scientific expasion in some parts of main land Europe and the UK.

[chaplaincliff]

Do not take this the wrong way, but your brining up of the Romans is rather amusing to me, as it is from them that we get the stereo type that women should be indoors doing the domestic stuff and that they are more or less commodities, if you want to go back as far as Roman to the 1900s.

 

 

oh, no worries, i didn't even think about that as i just wrote several of the old goddesses down, the irony didn't even show itself to me until now.

[Aeternus_90]

For the whole genetics arguement I'd say why not? The gene for color blindness for example only expresses itself in males while women can only be carriers, who's to say the same wouldnt apply to the gene seed? Maybe even the insertion of the gene seed into a female subject would quite simply have no affect, you could do it, but it wouldnt do anything.

 

Also like other posters have pointed out, undoubtably there are women out there stronger, and faster then me, but the strongest and fastest males will be superior to the strongest and fastest females, its just how our bodies are built, I remember in high school having to do those fitness tests, the requirements for males in almost every exercise was higher for males then females, what was considered fit for females was out of shape for males. As such, when marines only take the best of the best to become marines, how could the best female applicants compete against the best male applicants? And to make an entire chapter of them would make it so the chapter would have to draw from a far larger area inorder to keep the chapter up to fighting strength, why bother when its easier to do it for males?

[CylonDorado]

Ok, there is a lot to read here, and I have to go soon, so I'm just going to give my 2 cents.

 

Like I said in another thread, I think there are a ton of female marines running around, but that's just me B) . (Your marines might be female and you don't even know it, ever seen a body builder chick?)

 

Also, over the next 40 thousand years it's possible that the differences that AVERAGE women have versus AVERAGE men could have dissapeared. It also depends on what part of the Galaxy you're in. One planet over here might have all male guard regiments, the one over there might be co-ed, and one over here could be all women. It's a big galaxy. It has a lot to do with nature vs. nurture, time, blah blah blah.

 

In 40k, there are plenty of female inquisitors skulking around for one.

[Aeternus_90]

So our 20 million or so years of evolution to modern day humans took a complete 180 in the last 28k years making females the physicly superior sex? The galaxy's a big place, sure, but evolution is a VERY slow process, not to mention what evolutionary pressures would cause such a drastic change in female/male roles?

[CylonDorado]

So our 20 million or so years of evolution to modern day humans took a complete 180 in the last 28k years making females the physicly superior sex? The galaxy's a big place, sure, but evolution is a VERY slow process, not to mention what evolutionary pressures would cause such a drastic change in female/male roles?

 

Easy. First of all there is such a thing as a "Tom Boy," and in a futuristic environment, it would be fairly easy to support those traits from generation to generation. And that's just the part before the Dark Age of Technology. Second, you'd be suprised how fast adaptation takes place when pressures are applied. For instance, women definatly had their fair share of the work during the US expantion to the west coast (You know, the Wagon Trains and all that). And most of them were middle class families that moved out west, not the already rough and tumble poor folks, since the trip cost money.

 

And as far as Evolution is concerned:

 

Easy. We're not turning wolves into whales here, we're just slightly adjusting temperment. You can do that within one generation with psychology alone. And I'd go as far as to guess that the average human's tempermant has changed quite a bit over the last 10,000 years. And in 40k (You know, 38K years in the future), there are abhumans that have changed due to their environment all over the place. We're also getting into the nature vs. nurture debate a bit.

 

Not to mention, evolution is spurred on by a high death rate. And remember, we're talking about 40k here.

 

Evolution is just a concept. There's no set speed it has to go at. Especially not when you factor in bio-engineering. Not that you would need that for manly women of course, we have those now.

[Prathios]

So our 20 million or so years of evolution to modern day humans took a complete 180 in the last 28k years making females the physicly superior sex? The galaxy's a big place, sure, but evolution is a VERY slow process, not to mention what evolutionary pressures would cause such a drastic change in female/male roles?

 

Easy. First of all there is such a thing as a "Tom Boy," and in a futuristic environment, it would be fairly easy to support those traits from generation to generation. And that's just the part before the Dark Age of Technology. Second, you'd be suprised how fast adaptation takes place when pressures are applied. For instance, women definatly had their fair share of the work during the US expantion to the west coast (You know, the Wagon Trains and all that). And most of them were middle class families that moved out west, not the already rough and tumble poor folks, since the trip cost money.

 

And as far as Evolution is concerned:

 

Easy. We're not turning wolves into whales here, we're just slightly adjusting temperment. You can do that within one generation with psychology alone. And I'd go as far as to guess that the average human's tempermant has changed quite a bit over the last 10,000 years. And in 40k (You know, 38K years in the future), there are abhumans that have changed due to their environment all over the place. We're also getting into the nature vs. nurture debate a bit.

 

Not to mention, evolution is spurred on by a high death rate. And remember, we're talking about 40k here.

 

Evolution is just a concept. There's no set speed it has to go at. Especially not when you factor in bio-engineering. Not that you would need that for manly women of course, we have those now.

 

Well first off you have to look at what is present. In every 40k picture I have ever seen the women look just like they do today. There has been no change in their physical build. Much like there has been no change in recorded history. If anything in the 40k universe women have simply gotten hotter. Yes that's a joke (to a degree) but lets face it, all the women in the art for the game are attractive and thin. But since this is all we have to go on aside from descriptions in the novels the sexes are exactly as they are now in the 41st millennium.

 

Second evolution doesn't have set rules because its a theory. Without being proven it can't have rules or standards. Which means for the sake of this debate its better to use adaption which is a fact. Adaption to environment can happen over a single generation and drastic changes can occur in a matter of several generations. For instance the warp activity in the 40k universe is at an all time high which would cause a serious impetus for psychers and blanks to adapt. Again this can happen over a single generation, but there is almost no reason for the sexes to change. Where is the catalyst for this? You need a cause and effect relationship for women to be spurred into the dominant physical roll. Since there is no record so far of this happening anywhere in the fluff I'm going to have to say it doesn't exist in the universe. There is no logical reason for it too. If you have higher gravity or things of this sort it causes both sexes to adapt, so unfortunately you need something very special to happen to only cause females to physically develop.

 

Then you mention bio-engineering which is actually a detriment to your argument. There is no reason for Marines to waste their time, effort, and resources bio-engineering or seeking bio-engineered females when there are sufficient male's to choose from on planets all over the universe. I think in the hopeful thinking and wishing for female marines you simply leave logic and whats written behind. It doesn't make common sense. With all the fantastic female characters in the fluff I don't understand the need for female marines, just like I don't understand the need for male sisters of battle (shudders).

[CylonDorado]

Well, I wasn't really arguing for Female Marines.... I guess I was just talking about how the sisters and the all female gaurd units and such can be just as hardcore as the men can :wub: .

 

And yeah, they explain that man hasn't changed much as a whole because the Inquisition doesn't let people get tooo far from what humanity is supposed to be like.

 

I just like to play devil's advocate, and I think there is some explanation for female marines because of how there's quite a few people that model them just to tick off the hardcore marine players :lol: .

[Aeternus_90]

I didnt say you needed it for manly women, I was simply saying what evolutionary pressures would affect only the females and completely unaffect the males? Why would females increase physicly, yet the males not? Undoubtably there are alot of women around that could kick my ass, but there are alot more men around that could do it because males bodies are naturally more built for it, sure, there could be a couple planets among the entire Imperium where such an odd change could have occured, but in all liklihood the space marines would ignore such worlds because theirs no suitable male recruits, not to mention id imagine in such a world said women would see themselves superior to the marines (seeing how their males) then quickly learn otherwise lol :)

[CylonDorado]

I didnt say you needed it for manly women, I was simply saying what evolutionary pressures would affect only the females and completely unaffect the males? Why would females increase physicly, yet the males not? Undoubtably there are alot of women around that could kick my ass, but there are alot more men around that could do it because males bodies are naturally more built for it, sure, there could be a couple planets among the entire Imperium where such an odd change could have occured, but in all liklihood the space marines would ignore such worlds because theirs no suitable male recruits, not to mention id imagine in such a world said women would see themselves superior to the marines (seeing how their males) then quickly learn otherwise lol :(

 

Hmm, that is a good point, but it must happen somehow. For one idea, there could have been a awsome female general who grew super famous for saving the whole system from Orks or something. Then all the little girls want to be like her, and after a couple generations their desire to go to war for glory eclipses the men's, who could prefer jobs like civil service in their culture. BAM! A planet of stay at home dads and an all female PDF and guard regiments. Though I've only heard of an all female guard regiment referenced in a Gaunt's Ghost book (Co-ed and all men are probably way more common), I think it's a neat idea :) .

 

And yeah, fluff wise there's probly no lady marines. That would require a real fluff brain bender. Like an unknown primarch having a mutation (Kind of like Sanguinus's wings, or Magnus' eye, or Alpharius' twin) that allows his gene seed to be accepted by females. Then they would be made by a SUPER SECRET organization that makes the Alpha Legion look like bumbling twits in comparison who sends them on super secret missions that leave no survivors, ever.

 

Stop giving me ideas people, I have too many armies armies already ;) .

[JJmug]

Everyone might want to check this Warseer link for Biology. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.p...=Female+Marines

Also: Marines are GENETICALLY enhanced super warriors.

Genetics = genes = chromosomes

 

And the two models released by GW Genetics = genes = chromosomes

[Solid Zaku]

It's mentioned in Gaunts Ghosts that there actually ARE wholly female Guard Regiments. There was no given specifics, but it does make sense. Also, read Legion, it gives a fantastic view of an Imperial force that's almost completely reliant on females.

 

Also, the whole 'female Marine' thing has been beaten to death, reanimated, pushed through a rusty chainsaw, and had the chunky bits beaten again. They don't, won't, and cannot exist in the current fluff. It's been mentioned numerous times that the bioaugmentations performed on Marine candidates can only be accepted by the male body. It's logical to assume that yes, the Emperor tried it. It must also be realized that he failed. If you want power armor-clad females, be content with the Sisters of Battle.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

This was quite an interesting read, thanks for the thoughts.. quite a nice lil' write-up you have here.

Oh, and the Ciaphas Cain novels mention all-female guard units, in the first full novel I believe. Maybe in the short story.

Don't recall, it's been a while since I read a CC novel.. I love'em, though.

[Wyrdlight]

The only theroretical all woman warrior culture is the Amazons but it is unproven that they actually exsisted, and most believe they are entirely myth. According to those legends the Amazons removed their left breast so they could fire bows like men, which touches back to the theme of removing part of the feminine aspect in order to become a warrior.

 

 

I am almost positive that there are records and accounts of female tribes around the caspian/Black Sea region from Greek and Roman times. Sycthia and other horse-dependant nations had women warriors who were famed for using poisen arrows and carrying the heads of slain enimies around tied to thier saddles.

 

In the Cain Novels one of the regiments was all female a Valhallan one, but they get merged with a male regiment after massive combat losses.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

We know that there are all-female guard regiments, though rare, but Space Marines were created by the Emperor and I'm guessing he didn't have women's rights in mind.

He was around since 'biblical' times so he's probably retained those values.

Plus.. maybe there was a biological reason.

[Wyrdlight]

I dont see why a "space marine" needs to be made the way they do.

 

The imperial assassins are better one on one than a space marine.

 

If you wanted to make female space marine equivilents then i guess you could do so with the same methods the assains are trained. So in-built chem and med drispensers, reienforced exoskeletons, sub-dermal armour implants, enchanced senses and reflexes. Stick em in power armour and there you go, ok the wont be EXACTLY the same as marines, but to all intents and purpsoes they will be. Super strong, super fast, highly trained and exellently equiped.

 

I dont think such warriors would be beyond the bounds of fluff or reason.

[Solid Zaku]

True, Assassinorum Templars are individually superior to Space Marines. However, you don't see units of one hundred Assassins in a single frontline battle. The fact is that they are only so superior because they must be trained over a (relatively for an individual fighting unit) long time. Far longer than even a Marine must be trained for. It's simply too prohibitively expensive, in both time and other Imperial resources, to create any more Assassins than they do already.

[Doctor Thunder]

40K background draws from a huge number of sources, only one of which is the historical dark ages and it's architecture. (Gothic-ness was grafted on later, for example. The early background drew most heavily from Dune and Aliens)

 

Therefore, I think using historical realities as a baseline for determining whether something "fits" in 40K or not is an interesting tool, but of limited usefulness.

[Benx6444]

"From a science perspective it's completely and utter BS to say that marines can come only from males, anyone that states that obviously never took courses in biology. Every male starts out as a female embryo and remains female during the greater portion of fetal life, it's only later on the hormone changes cause the final parts to come out differant. (that's why you have nipples guys) All of the hormones within a male are found in females as well, the only differance is what the levels occur at, in the right conditions women can produce as much testosterone as men. Naturally it normally doesn't occur but it is possible to change a womans body chemistry to be nearly identical to a man's and vice versa."

 

Listen to me scum and listen to me well - this is 009/m41! We are a society BEYOND science! This is a society of Faith! Faith in the spirit of Man, faith in the mystical dialetic of class struggle throughout history and above all, Faith in the Emperor! We are men given new and potent life by the strength and sacrifice of our Holy Emperor! From his Golden throne flow the invisible, innumerable bonds of political power which knit together millions of worlds against myriad crises - any one of which dwarves your pitiful, insignificant squeakings about Mankind's finest! Who are you to question the Emperor's will? It is this way because it has always been so! Cast your arrogant gaze DOWNWARD and obey! I call on all party members witness hereof to ensure this one is properly re-educated and expresses the appropriate sorrow for his heresies! Praise the Mind too small for doubt!