A bit of advice requested

[Prathios]

I have a few questions and so to ease the pain for those of you who only want to answer one I'll number them. After all who doesn't love numbered questions?

 

1. I'm always looking for ways as a *mixed* DH force (I use all the units available to me generally not just GK.) to deal with my friends Tau. Its infuriating to try and catch Crisis Suits and those buckshot attacks from his hammerheads wipe entire squads off the table for me. My land raider get killed many games on turn 1 from his rail guns before I even get to take my turn. I've played as big as 1500 against him and its just very frustrating. Can anyone offer me advice? I have every unit a good DH player could want now so I can employ any strat a pure DH list can offer.

 

2. Chimera vs Rhino... which do you prefer? I've noticed the Chimera is a bit more survivable and hits harder but do the extra points justify this? I have 2 of each so I can usually keep my army mobile if i need.

 

3. I'm about to face off against my first eldar opponent, and he loves his wave serpents and howling banshees. What are my best tactics to use against him? He also takes multiple far-seers and lots of warlocks so I had already decided to take a culexus assassin to make his live miserable for using dirty xenos psycher scum. But those banshees getting in CC in turn one sounds pretty scary.

 

4. I was considering starting a second army down the line so that I can play with my friend who is starting as a WH player. He plays a witch hunter in Warhammer Online and when I showed him the inquisitor that looks like one he decided right then and there to play a WH army. But I can't decide what team to play. I have several I'm interested in but I have arguments for and against them all. I suppose I should choose a non-imperial team if i want to really get diversified but im a pretty devout servant of the emperor so my top choices are Space Puppies and Black Templar. I love CC guys (like my GKT's) so both of these teams seem to be good at but I cant decide which i like more. I don't like how there are no models for SW veny dreads. I don't like how it seems the BT are only good at one thing which is rush into CC... I do like how BT can team up with my DH army. Granted the puppies can team up with my DH army too but after the whole armageddon fiasco it wouldn't make any sense fluff wise. Or I could just say "screw it" and pick up the nids. What advice could you guys give to help me make a decision here.

 

5. And last is deep striking GKT a really bad idea? Should they always get a ride in a LR? So far the only unit I've had any success deepstriking is a PAGK with 2 incinerators. I've seen this topic hit before but there never seems any clear consensus.

 

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

1: Hmm. I really need to know your points limit for this one, but to me the ideal solution seems to be Grey Knight Teleport Attack Squads with psycannons, or IST squads with Valkyries and melta/plasma guns. I've had some success with these (especially with rear armour, psycannons and 4th ed. vehicle damage tables :) ), but be prepared to lose these units. Unless they come in in the last 1 or 2 turns they are literally suicide squads, especially against Tau.

 

Other than that I really need to know more before giving any more advice - what is your points limit, and what does your Tau opponent normally field?

 

2: Can't be of much help. Sorry. :(

 

3: Take a GKGM with psychic hood. It has no maximum range and will affect any powers cast at any of your units. This should stop a lot of his psychics (though its no good at stuff that enhances his troops). The GM's extra wounds will be essential for keeping him alive (with his psychic hood) in case of a Mind War getting through.

Plus any GKs will benefit from the Aegis anyway. :)

 

4: Whose fluff do you like best?

 

5: I've not had much success with DSing GKTs, but I don't put them in a Land Raider either, they walk instead. Then again I do seem to use them as a bullet magnet.

[asianavatar]

Ohhh Numbered Questions...Is someone a Deadpool fan???

 

Anyways on to the answer

 

1) How is your land raider getting killed first turn. I think its main use would be to get terminators in combat or get them across the board. So they should be starting in cover than moving out. I know you give up one shot with the lascannons, but I think its worth it. Have you thought of assassins to quickly get to his line and tie up shooting squads or just be sacrificial lambs (not so good in kill point games, but maybe worth it still). Have you played with the orbital template, its not the greatest weapon, but it does usually make its points back or at least puts some fear in the opponent.

 

2) Personally, I like the rhino. I think I would rather have 11 all the round instead of 12 front and 10 sides. Plus the ability to get out on either side or behind is useful. Again I think these are to get your guys where they need to go, so the extra fire power given by the chimera is not really needed.

 

3) Banshees die pretty easily to shooting so try and have an idea of where they are going to end up and put a sacrificial unit to protect your other units. Banshees killing storm troopers is not so bad when you get to storm bolter them to death next turn.

 

4) Personally, if you like close combat, how about Orks, they are pretty close combatty, although they can be kind of one sided (rush forward kill). Tyranids provide a good cc army but can also be pretty shooty too. I hate to say this, cause I dont like SM, but they are pretty versatile, they can play both shooty and cc so that might be a good way to go as you can flop back and forth pretty easily about what type of army you like to play.

 

5) Problem with deep striking is that you aren't sure when they will come in and if you have more than one deepstriking unit, will they come in all at once or one at a time. Terminators are great, but they still need support. A deep striking terminator unit can come in first turn and if there is no support troops around they become the main threat, get shot at and die. I think with a landraider, you can get them into cc or get up there with other units so they aren't left alone.

[Prathios]

1. I dont think he likes using any FW rules, hes not big on that so he would cry cheeze on me. I would say all games with him from this point out are going to be 1500-2000. I can actually make lists this large very easily with all the stuff I got. (I got pretty crazy with purchasing models, its gonna take a lifetime to paint them all.) And every game the IST's are suicide squads, they can hold objectives and shoot up stuff with rapid plas or grenade on the move. But they are really there to soak up shots and basically make problems for him. After all I can get three squads of them for 360 points with six plas guns.

 

2. no biggie!

 

3. why does the hood not just reach 24" on a GM?

 

4. I was afraid you'd ask this... There isn't much BT fluff. The codex has some ok stuff but not much in the way of black library stuff. I've read all the Space Wolf novels and love them to death but like I said it couldn't justify them mixing armys with my DH list. Hence the problem. I love Necrons and Tyranid fluff to bits (the Uriel Ventris novel Warriors of Ultramar was amazing.) but i always wanted a Space Marine army. And my other buddy already picked Necrons.

 

5. I get the feeling using them like that they always do exactly what you want them to. If I were your opponent I'd FF on them like crazy -_-. GKT's are terrifying.

 

Thanks for your help!

[jeffersonian000]

I can answer question #3:

 

The Psychic Hood in the DH codex effects the entire board. Specifically, any psychic power used against your army has a chance of being defeated by one (and only one) Psychic Hood. On a helpful note, Ageis while still work if the Hood fails, as will Unguents of Warding, as the only note the prevent multiple wargear uses is that only one Psychic Hood many be used versus a signle power.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Tyrak]

5. I get the feeling using them like that they always do exactly what you want them to. If I were your opponent I'd FF on them like crazy B) . GKT's are terrifying.

 

Far from it. My GM (like all my HQs) seems to be the bad luck magnet for my army, hence why I use him and his unit as a bullet magnet. If they don't get shot up and eventually fail their armour saves, they'll fail to kill anything. Murphy's Law demands it. :P However, I keep him around since every so often the bad luck runs out and nothing will get past my Termies armour or inv. saves. It's worth saving him just for the look on Tau players' faces when those guys just go waltzing up the board, everything pinging off them. -_-

 

3. why does the hood not just reach 24" on a GM?

 

Outdated rules. Our psychic hood has no maximum range. Actually, having just checked the armoury, you can use it every time an enemy psyker attempts to use a psychic power. So it does work against those powers that enhance his troops! :P

[number6]

1. I'm always looking for ways as a *mixed* DH force (I use all the units available to me generally not just GK.) to deal with my friends Tau. Its infuriating to try and catch Crisis Suits and those buckshot attacks from his hammerheads wipe entire squads off the table for me. My land raider get killed many games on turn 1 from his rail guns before I even get to take my turn. I've played as big as 1500 against him and its just very frustrating. Can anyone offer me advice? I have every unit a good DH player could want now so I can employ any strat a pure DH list can offer.

Tau are one of the most difficult armies for the DH to tangle with. They're fast --often mechanized -- and have access to far superior firepower. You're in for a tough fight no matter what you do.

 

Probably the single best unit to use against Tau is the Callidus assassin. Use A Word In Your Ear to foul up their deployment, and then when she shows up, destroy an entire unit of battlesuits in one go. To get her in the army, take an Inquisitorial firebase and set it cover. Any suits, firewarriors, or Kroot that stick their noses out too far will get shot down in a hurry. And if your enemy decides to shoot at this unit, that's firepower that isn't targeting your most important assets: your ISTs and GKs.

 

Use ISTs -- mounted or unmounted -- to screen the advance of your footslogging Grey Knights, giving them 4+ cover saves at the very least. ISTs in this game are going to be purely sacrificial. Ideally you can bait your opponent to dump out for a Fish of Fury when it isn't really so wise to do so. Sure, they'll wipe out the ISTs you've baited, but then the rest of your army should be able to draw line of sight to those fire warriors. Gun them down with stormbolters and your Inquisitor. If your opponent is too canny to bite on the ISTs, use the extra turns you have with them to pressure the Tau and limit their "safe" mobility options. They're fast and tricksy, but if you approach cautiously but inexorably, they will start to feel cornered. That's when they make mistakes or find themselves trapped.

 

I wouldn't take land raiders if I could help it. S10 AP1 weaponry is going to destroy your armour right quick. Don't offer anything to them juicier than dreadnoughts and Rhinos. It's far better to have more "weak" vehicles than few "strong" ones.

 

2. Chimera vs Rhino... which do you prefer? I've noticed the Chimera is a bit more survivable and hits harder but do the extra points justify this? I have 2 of each so I can usually keep my army mobile if i need.

Depends on what you want the transport for. Rhinos are better for units you want to get close to the enemy ... quickly. You're not overburdened with weaponry that you're worried about firing; just move it where you want to as fast as you like. It's got better side armour than a Chimera for somewhat better protection of the troops inside for such a role, and it also makes a better piece of mobile terrain than a Chimera. You also have a choice of three exit points for the troops when you're ready to dump out.

 

IMHO, you want Chimeras not so much because of the AV 12 on the front but because you can get a multilaser and a heavy bolter or heavy flamer on it, making it a real shooting threat. Park the tank and troops in/near terrain and you've got a decent firebase. I've seen players (IG and DH) use stormtroopers with plasma/flamer in a heavy-flamer-equipped Chimera as an assault unit, though I'm not sold on it's utility. The rear hatch being the only exit point makes it difficult to position troops after the charge in with the tank, and the weak side armour exposes the tank to much more risk than a rhino does in a similar situation. For that kind of action, double plasma IST in a Rhino seems preferable. Again, Chimeras are for guns, not so much for transport.

 

3. I'm about to face off against my first eldar opponent, and he loves his wave serpents and howling banshees. What are my best tactics to use against him? He also takes multiple far-seers and lots of warlocks so I had already decided to take a culexus assassin to make his live miserable for using dirty xenos psycher scum. But those banshees getting in CC in turn one sounds pretty scary.

Take a psychic hood on your GK Hero or Inquisitor Lord, and buy unguents of warding wherever you can afford them. Otherwise, advice depends much on what kind of army list the Eldar player is bringing to the table. In general, they are fast and mobile, and hit hard when they need to. The key, as with the Tau, is to force their hand. Don't let the Eldar choose when and where firefights and assaults are held. Be patient and keep your wits about you and slowly ratchet up the pressure from turn to turn. Don't get suckered into trying to kill Falcons when softer, more dangerous targets are around. Just shake/stun the vehicle to keep it from shooting, be wary of any cargo its carrying, otherwise focus on Aspect Warriors.

 

4. I was considering starting a second army down the line so that I can play with my friend who is starting as a WH player. ... What advice could you guys give to help me make a decision here.

You have to go with what you like, it's as simple as that. If you like the Space Wolves that much, make the fluff work for you. Don't be a slave to what you perceive is "right". It isn't that hard to figure out why these specific Space Wolves would work with this specific Inquisitor.

 

5. And last is deep striking GKT a really bad idea? Should they always get a ride in a LR? So far the only unit I've had any success deepstriking is a PAGK with 2 incinerators. I've seen this topic hit before but there never seems any clear consensus.

It's not a "bad" idea, it's just not what I (and others) may prefer. I like footslogging mine as a mobile firebase (double psycannon action)/fire magnet. It's what works for me. But there isn't any inherent reason why you shouldn't/couldn't deep strike your GKTs.

[Prathios]

Ohhh Numbered Questions...Is someone a Deadpool fan???

 

Chimichanga?

 

And thanks for your responses Asianavatar! I hope your love for Bea Arthur goes as deep as mine.

 

@Tyrak Well it seems to me if he lets your GKT get inside assault range from across the board on foot its his fault when they start wrecking house and taking names.

 

@#6 Wow thanks for the extensive write up, I'll definately be trying these things. I like your Chimera idea, I think I'll take some troops to a good camping spot then use it as fire support from range. I made one with a heavy flamer that I thought i would take my chances on getting close with... we will see how that works but it seems like its a better vehicle for short hauling troops to a closer location then shooting from range.

 

And I suppose its possible to figure out a way the Wolves would work with the =I=. I guess its just tough for me to decide. I love Rogal Dorn, and if the Imperial fists didn't have such an aweful paint scheme I might play them but they do so the Templars are more attractive. Plus I think the Termy chaplain is the coolest looking model GW makes. But after looking at Ragnar Blackmane's stat line (which fits him well considering the fluff, though I might match lucious 7 weapon skill since Ragnar is considered the best warrior in either the Dark Angels or SW chapters making him a champion among champions but that might be fanboyism. )

 

I dunno, maybe I'll just have to get both some day to satisfy my marine cravings.

 

Actually which army is better against the tau... wolves, templars, or nids... *snicker*

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm about to face off against my first eldar opponent, and he loves his wave serpents and howling banshees. What are my best tactics to use against him? He also takes multiple far-seers and lots of warlocks so I had already decided to take a culexus assassin to make his live miserable for using dirty xenos psycher scum. But those banshees getting in CC in turn one sounds pretty scary.

 

I'm only echoing what has been said above, but take a PH, and UoW.

 

Then Laugh. The Warlocks and Farseer are fragile (but don't get any vehicles next to them. Watching one Throw a S9 Spear and Penetrate a LR is >_< ). And Banshee's are by far the worse choice of CC unit in the 'dex. They're only good when back by Doom. Which your PH and UoW and innate Aegis Suit will ruin.

 

Cry if you see Falcon Tanks, Dark Reapers, Pathfnders, the Avatar and Harliquins. In any ammount.

 

They will ruin your world.

 

Oh and don't bother with the Culexus Assassin.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

@Tyrak Well it seems to me if he lets your GKT get inside assault range from across the board on foot its his fault when they start wrecking house and taking names.

 

Oh they don't. Its the rest of my army that gets across and starts chopping up stuff whilst he was busy concentrating on the Termies. True they run afoul of uber-CC units, but then GKTs aren't really equipped to take them down either.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

Actual Milage may vary :P

 

 

#1 / #3 - I too run a mixed DH/GK list. 5e has seen a marked rise in the survivability of vehicles given general improvements in the rules and cover saves for vehicles. Couple this with our better version of Smoke Launchers and I have taken to running a very mech DH list. Logic is this: more survivable vehicles, troops inside live longer.

 

This is one of the few times I would *ever* disagree with number6. I would take land raiders as S10 still gets negated by cover, and a water warrior will maximize those saves. I would take 2 raiders for either Tau or Eldar in the 1500-1850 range, and 3 at 2000. But this is due more to differences in playstyle, number6 has been unbelievably effective in running high numbers of PAGK, where I tend to rely more on mounted ISTs and a single squad of PAGK. You probably can't outshoot either Tau or Eldar (based on your model count vs. theirs), but kiting and pruning while you set up (or draw them into) an effective assault is ultimately where I have had success.

 

The only unit I will typically unmount in most matches is the shooty =][= in cover deep in the backfield closely supported by a GK squad for countercharges. With the amount of skimmers, Eldar *will* always get into your backfield and unleash some rediculous amount of shooting so you have to be prepared for this if you have unmounted units.

 

As much as I love the FW stuff, I only bring it out for Apoc games. My logic is that I want to ensure I know how to use the tools I can always have at my disposal, versus units that my opponent may or may not allow me to use, and that most sanctioned nationally recognized tournaments don't allow me to use. Believe me, I am still praying for a Armored Fist variant in the new IG codex with Valkyries so we can use the induction RAW from the codex.

 

#2 I usually mix up the transport options for the ISTs - I use at least one of each. I tend to favor Chimeras for using troops to hold objectives on my side, and Rhinos to penetrate to objectives in the enemies backfield. Generally for the same reasons everone else has already given - again, remember you want to maximize your cover saves...

 

#3 Now I heartily *do* agree with number6 on taking a Callidus for both Tau and Eldar. Just about the time their attack starts to come together - BAM she throws a huge monkey wrench in the works. Plus, you are *guaranteed* to prevent any vehicle from shooting that gets touched by her neural shredder. If they park the hammerheads to close to each other - WHOOPS! Does that template touch both vehicles? HUGE game impact...check out my post regarding her tactica and how I use her. Read the first couple of paragraphs before the quotes start to get the general idea. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...&hl=iapetus

 

When playing mixed DH, I usually take the PH over UoW. I usually run a GM and an =][= but I put the PH on my =][=. Our psychic hood is amazing, and as I have said before, the most fun you will ever have using it is against Eldar or the Double Lash lists. Priceless...

 

#4 My money's on the new IG, but if you are into CC - BT are really great and you keep some of the the Gothic elements of the inquisition. Or just come up with your own vanilla marine color scheme and fluff - Sternguard and Vanguard are truly cool. Heroic intervention just SCREAMS Grey Knight fluff...

 

#5 I tried DS a lot in 4e, and totally went away from it. I could roll the scatter dice...but I would always get obliterated by fire or assaults on the subsequent enemy turn. Also, you don't want to have to wonder if a large part of your force actually will make it in from reserves.

 

There's my 5 cents, sorry for the length of the post :D

[Prathios]

Ok I really already like the Callidus Assassin if for no other reason than her ability to tie down crisis suits and broadside teams. However against the eldar list why is the Culexus not a good choice, I figured 6-9 str 8 ap 3 shots would be great for taking out his hq... Since he loves to take multiple farseers and a seer council. Is the Culexus just not a good assassin in the first place cause if hes not good at taking out eldar i can assume hes pretty well worthless against everyone.

 

@Iapetus Dont apologize for post length I read it all with great enthusiasm. Its got lots of goodies in it. I would very much like a valkyrie in our codex as well because I want to train myself to use the tourny rules while i learn the game inside and out. I only have 1 LRC atm but a second Godhammer is on the way in the mail. I figured with an LRC i could get more bang for my buck while trying to drive GKT into the fray. Since a Godhammer would not be able to shoot more than once on the move and the LRC can always fire its storm bolters plus one weapon from Machine Spirit. Plus GKT with grenades is awesome. Plus the crusader is just plain cool and sometimes thats all that matters to me.

 

So you are saying against Eldar i need to pick away at him then try to assault? Wear him down then go for the kill?

 

And if i put the PH on the GM and hes inside a transport does the hood still work? Cause if it still works inside the transport wouldn't it make more sense to equip the harder to kill unit with the hood?

 

Thanks for all the tips guys this has been very helpful so far.

[Grand Master Iapetus]

Culexis - haven't played with him except for once in 4th ed (against eldar) and it was less than stellar... He dies quick, is the only assasin with no power weapon and it usually takes 1-2 turns to get him close to a eldar psycher to make him truly effective. He has a 12" bubble (18" if you move, 24" if you move and run). With more cover saves it might be a viable solution in 5e. Use a fearless squad of PAGK moving with him or keep him behind a vehicle as he advances, or infiltrate him into the backfield. It could be worth a try....

 

Crusader is great for the 12" move, pop out the termies, shoot the hurricanes, shoot with the termies, pick either the AC or MM to shoot with POTMS and then assault with the termies. GREAT for hordes. But don't discount the GHLR - if you are moving 6" you can shoot *both* TLLCs, one standard shot and one POTMS.

 

So you are saying against Eldar i need to pick away at him then try to assault? Wear him down then go for the kill?

 

Maybe :P Remember the water warrior basically boils down to reacting to what your enemy does. If he stretches himself too thin or you see a weak spot: sure, assault. With a bunch of skimmers, a lot of times eldar end up as "Air" armies and may come to you for a counter assault. Or he may try to play water and wait you out...if your guy is playing water with skimmers, having 2 godhammers gives you the ability to sip blessed pina coladas in safe areas and reach out and touch them (up to 4 different skimmers per turn with 2 GHLRs).

 

Again, this stuff really gets into your preferred playstyle and units you decide (or want or like) to use. Water is much more Meta than micro to me: my water style is probably vastly different from number6's based on our chosen units and how we use them. The best thing to do is play a lot (weekly at least) and try to set up games with players who are more experienced and open to letting you play 2-3 games with different DH lists against his same list and you can find what works and doesn't work for you. I know there are a lot of guys out there who haven't lost a game with DH, but I have to tell you it was a LONG time of trial and error to find what works best for me.

 

Finally - the FAQ says psychic powers can work from within a vehicle, I always assumed the PH works too. Someone else may know differently....