Killhammer Strategy: Army Building

[minigun762]

So here's is a 2000 pt Blood Angel army analysed in Killhammer terms. (In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, everything must be killy madness)

 

Chaplain Lemartes w/ 8DC-Jump packs

- Primary killers (heavy infantry, infantry)

 

8 man VAS w/ 2PwrFist, 1Thammer, 2 Meltas

- Primary killers (MC, Heavy infantry, tanks)

 

2 10 man Tactical squads w/ ML, Flamer, PwrWp, Rhino

- Cleaner/ Firebase (Infantry / Heavy infantry)

 

10 man RAS w/ PwrFist

- Cleaner (Infantry / Heavy infantry)

 

2 squads of 2 Attk bikes w/ Multi-melta

- Hunters (Tank)

 

2 Baal Preds

- Firebase, (Infantry / heavy infantry)

 

1 Vindicator

- Firebase, (All targets are good targets)

 

 

So I think I got most aspect covered, especially redundancy.

The only unit that doesn't have a redundant counter-part is the VAS.

 

About the spamming for redundancy, I believe it is indeed one of the best way to cover your back.

Having different units with different "S values" filling the same role can let the opponent choose which one to deal with first, and which one to cope with.

For example, having a squad of attack bikes with multimeltas vs a squad bike with 2 meltas and a pwr fist for tank hunting. The opponent who cares for his heavy infantry will let you have the attk bikes and try and exterminate the standard bike squad.

Where as if you spam bike squads, what are his choices ? He'll have to cope with one squad.

 

I think the way to see it is that if you're convinced with your choice of unit, spam it. Now if you want a wider perspective "S-wise"' different units filling the same role could be a better alternative.

 

 

 

 

so this list sums up to 1980 pts, anybody thinks they know how that 20pts would be spent best ?

 

As for your army, I think the Baal's and Vindicator can do a decent enough job of MC/Tank hunting to support the VAS. If you upgraded the Flamers to Plasma or Melta, your Tacticals could also help out.

 

The issue I have with unit spamming (beyond that it looks kinda power gamery) is that if you only have 1 type of unit, then the opponent only needs to have 1 type of counter.

Example if all you use is Fire Prisms for anti-tank (since you're a dirty Xeno player) your opponents only have to worry about countering Fire Prisms, whereas if you used a variety of different units all with the same goal, in this case anti-tank, it seems like it would be more difficult to counter them all.

[Warp Angel]

Here is a question for the group.

 

"Is unit spamming for redundancy the best method?"

 

By this I mean, say you want some anti-tank firepower. Is the best thing to use the same unit over and over (eg 6-9 Obliterators) OR are you better off taking a variety of units that all achieve the same goal in different ways? (eg Obliterators, Combi-Melta Terminators, Vindicator etc)

 

Not really. You lose a lot of versatility that way. In some games Oblits may be the king you need, but in others the Defiler is the tool for the job. By having both, you have a primary ranged anti-tank in the oblits, and a CC anti-tank in the Defiler. Both are more than adequate against MEQ as well, but when it comes to tying up your opponent in Assault, or just being plain maneuverable, the Defiler is king.

 

In my mind, it's better to have redundant capability from diverse units with slightly different emphasis.

 

For example, the Anti-Tank in my typical army is a bunch of TH/SS terminators, backed up by my bike squad. The bikes provide me with the mobility my termies lack (even in their LRC) and a better anti-infantry capability should I be facing a horde army. If I went with two bike squads, I'd lose the assault threat/deterrent against MCs that the Termies provide. If I go with all termies, I lose the speed and anti-infantry capability of the bikes.

 

If I go with both, I may be weaker in assault and weaker in anti-infantry, but I can deal with both.

 

About the only place I believe in spam is in Hunters/Defenders, but I believe in variety in loadouts even there.

[Warp Angel]

So here's is a 2000 pt Blood Angel army analysed in Killhammer terms. (In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, everything must be killy madness)

 

As for your army, I think the Baal's and Vindicator can do a decent enough job of MC/Tank hunting to support the VAS. If you upgraded the Flamers to Plasma or Melta, your Tacticals could also help out.

 

The issue I have with unit spamming (beyond that it looks kinda power gamery) is that if you only have 1 type of unit, then the opponent only needs to have 1 type of counter.

Example if all you use is Fire Prisms for anti-tank (since you're a dirty Xeno player) your opponents only have to worry about countering Fire Prisms, whereas if you used a variety of different units all with the same goal, in this case anti-tank, it seems like it would be more difficult to counter them all.

 

Second on minigun's analysis. But I like your army list because just about everything in that list inflicts stupid amounts of casualties, and given the BA's aggressive nature, that's really the best path to victory for you. You might want to consider a Death Company Dread in a drop pod for one of the Baal's though to add in some "you can't touch this" to smush armies that can't bust AV12 in hand to hand, and for some S flexibility.

 

I'd play your current list without reservations, but if it were mine, I'd have a tweak or two based on personal preference.

[Mutters]

Someone was talking about a tactic of dropping an ironclad dreadnought with heavy flamers in the opponents deployment. If I take a MoTF army and end up with 5 drop pods, how effective would 1 ironclad dual flamers, 1 normal MM/DCCW dread, and a missile launcher/ranged firebase dread be if i dropped them in my opponents deployment, then used the distraction (they're either moving away from my dreads or towards them, but not leaving them alone) to move up some assault terminators and tac squads. I will also have a scout squad of snipers to keep units pinned so I have more control over the field, and corral them all in a zone and lay waste with template weapons?

 

Also, if I have an odd number of drop pods, say 5, can I drop a rounded up half of them, so 3?

 

I'm also wondering about sticking an ironclad dreadnought w/drop pod with a unit of combat squad scouts (5 sniper, 5 BP/CC) because I can stick them in, around, and assaulting through cover, with the ironclad taking the heat for light assault, and the scouts taking the heat for melee armor busting.

[Warp Angel]

Keep in mind that on the turn a Dreadnaught arrives from deep strike, it's not doing much killing. At all.

 

It can shoot, and even use flamers if it didn't deviate too far off target. But then it stands there like an idiot before it gets hammered on.

 

Which is fine if you've got a large force ready to back them up and crossing the distance from your deployment zone to that of your opponent. And one dropped dread is a great distraction to let that happen, as well as a good tool for beating on the opponent if he ignores it.

 

But dropping 3 in the first turn, with another 400+ points still sitting in reserve means that your opponent has a de-facto kill gap on you in the first couple turns of the game. You have deployed three weaker offense unit choices into your opponent's optimal killing zone, and by doing so have negated your ability to assault for the first turn... which is a fair portion of your total offense. Furthermore, you've got a substantial part of the rest of your army not even available to assist.

 

This lets your opponent create the kill gap first more easily. And the whole point of Killhammer is for YOU to be the one to create and expand a kill gap. Coming from behind is difficult, and the further from behind you're coming from, the harder it is to catch up.

 

In the Killhammer article on reserves (use searchy to find it), I think that I talk about deep strike as a suboptimal deployment method for a number of reasons. And if I'm running drop pods, I'm dropping killers, not hunters (which is what dreads are for the most part) to take advantage of the shock value. 1 drop pod is awesome. Three is pretty good. Even numbers are silly. Five is too many regardless of what you've got in them.

 

That's my take on it anyway.

[Ryjak]

Maybe if you dropped your three dreads somewhere on a flank, or towards the middle of the board (where your Rhinos are going) it would work out. Or perhaps drop one in their back yard, and the other two elsewhere.

[Warp Angel]

Maybe if you dropped your three dreads somewhere on a flank, or towards the middle of the board (where your Rhinos are going) it would work out. Or perhaps drop one in their back yard, and the other two elsewhere.

 

The problem with dropping dreads anywhere but in the thick of the action is that they are short range and move slowly. Deploying on a flank only guarantees that you'll never cross the table width before the game is over. Deploying them scattered too much eliminates many of the problems with them being vulnerable to a single lucky shot by requiring more than one lucky shot to take out all of them at once. Also, in groups, they can assault as a mega-unit, minimizing the problem of prolonged combats.

[minigun762]

I wanted to build another example army (2000 points) that I've been working on using Killhammer theory that is still fluffy and original and here is what I've come up with so far.

 

Defenders:

2 x 5 Noise Marines squad with Blastmaster

2 x 7 Noise Marine squad with Sonic Blasters and Rhino

 

Hunters:

2 x Dreadnoughts, 2 x DCCWs

 

Killers:

2 x Defilers, Reaper AutoCannon and DCCW

2 x 9 Noise Marine squad, Champion with Doom Siren and Power Weapon, Rhino

 

Cleaners:

1 x Daemon Prince, Wings and Mark of Slaanesh

 

Firebase:

1 x Predator, AutoCanon, LasCannons

 

As you can see, I have a majority of my units in the Defender and Killer category as those are the most important. Those units are also the most durable whereas the Cleaners, Firebase and Hunters are all high threat moderate durability units, forcing my opponent to act on them swiftly or suffer.

[Warp Angel]

Looks reasonably solid, though you'll have issues with Nob Bikers and the upcoming Guard will probably wreck your day with the small squad sizes. Small squads have low inherent D2, and lower K1 totals. I'd consider consolidating the 3 Defenders to two defenders and adding some CC capability and another rhino. If you've got one, a Vindicator in place of one of the Defilers might increase overall army S.

 

Also... I'm not a fan of the reaper autocannon on the defiler. You can't use and fire the ordinance weapon, making it less than useful most of the time. Extra CCW is better.

[minigun762]

Looks reasonably solid, though you'll have issues with Nob Bikers and the upcoming Guard will probably wreck your day with the small squad sizes. Small squads have low inherent D2, and lower K1 totals. I'd consider consolidating the 3 Defenders to two defenders and adding some CC capability and another rhino. If you've got one, a Vindicator in place of one of the Defilers might increase overall army S.

 

Also... I'm not a fan of the reaper autocannon on the defiler. You can't use and fire the ordinance weapon, making it less than useful most of the time. Extra CCW is better.

 

My thought with the small squads was that it gives me more scoring units and if they waste their Nob Biker on my tiny 5 man squad, they're most likely to kill them instantly then be exposed to incoming fire. Functionally the 2 5 man squads will be working side by side.

 

The Reaper AC is only there as backup, I may just drop it entirely, not sure yet.