Defense of Fenris

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Yeah, I know there are plenty of various fluff reasons, but I was thinking more along the lines of an ongoing campaign/storyline type of reason why they'd be fighting together. And not in just the sense of happenstance, i.e. oh, Space Wolves are here and oh, look, here are some Imperial Guard and, what do you say, look at the Tyranids . . . Lets you and me gang up on them, what do you say, Logan ol' chap? Fine, little guardsman, sounds like a plan. I'm just looking for something a little more personal, yet . . . epic . . . in scope :-) No small feat, I know.

 

But some of the questions I have are as follows.

 

Despite what fluff says, and yes I've read numerous BL books including every book available with Space Wolves as main characters, I think that there has to be a PDF-LIKE force in the Fang. Now before Vash freaks out again and starts using bold letters, let me emphasize the "LIKE" in that last sentence. And yes, I'm throwing the "established" fluff out the window because, to be honest, the 40k universe my guys fight in is a lot more logical than the one GW created.

 

For instance, in my 40k realm, Chapters are a lot bigger. I don't care what the fluff says, because most fluff is contradictory depending on which book involving various main characters you might be reading. 1000 marines is not enough to take a planet that has a couple million GEQs swarming over them. Aint gonna happen. And don't try to disuade me on this point, because if you pull out the fluff stories, I'll just pull out an equal number of fluff stories where space marines drop left and right to automated heavy bolters and the like. For any one chapter of 1000 soldiers to make a difference in the scope of an entire galaxy, even if that 1000 soldiers are only the line doggies and all the vehicle drivers, and etc. aren't included, they'd have to have a kill ratio of about 8 million to 1. Again, ain't gonna happen.

 

And if a company or two of Space Wolves is going to be the main defense of the fang? Even given that the Space Wolves' chapter is more legion-esque in its makeup than a standard 1k marine chapter, 300 to 400 space marines can simply not cover the territory of a mountain that is wide enough to support the fact that it stretches up into at least lower orbit! And yes, yes, automated defenses, but any fortress relying wholy, or nearly wholly, on automated defenses is already in trouble in my book. And so we come to the bondsmen or whatever they're called. My guess is if they are effective, as the tales seem to indicate, there is a TON of organization. Its not like they're all going about their daily maintenance tasks or whatnot and then someone says, "enemy sited" and they just charge forward screaming and brandishing their wrenches and mops at the enemy in a huge mass. At the very least, even if there is no dedicated PDF, the bondsmen who have normal duties to perform are still segregated into units of some sort so that if a fight does break out, there is an effective means by which the battle can be waged. They're obviously not toting lasguns everywhere they go, so they've got to gear up for battle from an armory of some sort and there is no reason why there wouldnt' be heavy weapons available and designated throughout certain units as determined by the Space Wolf in charge of the bondsmen. They would all have their areas of responsibility as well. So when the alarm sounds, they run to the armory, grab their equipment, and report to their battle stations and form up into their unit so they can fight effectively. And they would have some sort of idea of what the units around them will be doing and how each area of defense affects the others around it.

 

Feel free to disagree with me, but I'd wager that even if the whole chapter of Space Wolves was occupying the Fang, and by this I mean fully formed Space Wolves, not failed aspirants or whatever, and if the Fang came under concerted attack by a worthy foe, say a tendril of a tyranid hive fleet, the bondsmen, gathered together in their units and manning the gun batteries and gun emplacements, would net a 100 to 1 kill ratio over the Space Wolves. I'm not saying they aren't awesome, Space Wolves are my favorite marine chapter, and I've actually grown to very much dislike marines in general EXCEPT for Space Wolves, but there just isn't ENOUGH Space Wolves to do what the fluff dictates would have to be done.

 

Anyway, sorry for the rambling. Let us continue the discussion.

[Vash113]

Despite what fluff says, and yes I've read numerous BL books including every book available with Space Wolves as main characters, I think that there has to be a PDF-LIKE force in the Fang. Now before Vash freaks out again and starts using bold letters, let me emphasize the "LIKE" in that last sentence. And yes, I'm throwing the "established" fluff out the window because, to be honest, the 40k universe my guys fight in is a lot more logical than the one GW created.

 

The Serfs/Bondsman would defend the Fang and would probably do it better than your average Imperial Guard Regiment let alone the softy PDF most planets sport. But why would you be discussing fluff if your throwing fluff out the window? That seems rather counter productive.

 

For instance, in my 40k realm, Chapters are a lot bigger. I don't care what the fluff says, because most fluff is contradictory depending on which book involving various main characters you might be reading. 1000 marines is not enough to take a planet that has a couple million GEQs swarming over them. Aint gonna happen. And don't try to disuade me on this point, because if you pull out the fluff stories, I'll just pull out an equal number of fluff stories where space marines drop left and right to automated heavy bolters and the like. For any one chapter of 1000 soldiers to make a difference in the scope of an entire galaxy, even if that 1000 soldiers are only the line doggies and all the vehicle drivers, and etc. aren't included, they'd have to have a kill ratio of about 8 million to 1. Again, ain't gonna happen.

 

Well sorry to rain on your parade but that is exactly what happens in the fluff. Lets face it Space Marines accomplishments in the fluff are nothing to say Master Chief from the Halo universe, you have to have some suspension of reality. If you try to rationalise everything then your just going to run into a brick wall proverbially. I mean this is the universe with the warp, Space Elves and Space Orks that breed by emitting spores that grow into new Orks.

 

That said 10 Marines are fully capable of bringing a world with millions of GEQ's. It's really simple actually, you seem to be assuming that the Marines actually have to kill all the forces on the planet. No Marines are a rapid strike force, their primary role being the speartip of the Imperial warmachine. 10 Marines by their fluff can fairly easily drop onto a planet, slaughter the defense high command and the governor and then extract leaving the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy to clean up the mess now that the defenders are in total disarray. That's how the Space Marines work by the fluff, they are just the leading edge of the Imperial war machine most of the time and when they aren't they work as a small, compact and mobile force that is able to keep themselves from getting bogged down fighting impossible odds. Marines can stay awake for months on end without sleep, can march over the roughest terrain without the need for rest at a breakneck pace and still be able to fight effectively at the end, such things make them a force that's very difficult to face in a conventional manner and defeat and why they are capable of doing what they are capable of doing in the fluff.

[Battle-Brother Wags]

My point concerning the fluff was not about the disparagy between fluff and reality but rather the disparagy between fluff within itself. Whenever it suits them, authors have power armored space marines dying in droves whilst still maintaining that a handful can take out the infrastructure of a planet. And on that topic, if any number of current day elite forces had access to teleportation technology, they could do that, too!

 

I'm not asking fluff to mesh with reality. As you mentinoed, we have the warp and orks and elves in space, even if they existed on the earth, which, sadly, they don't. I don't think. :-) What I would like is for the fluff to make sense as compared within itself. It doesn't and that is a fact that has been discuss at great length across many forums. In light of that, I am willing and compelled to ignore aspects of the fluff that make the least amount of sense and hold on to the aspects that are a little more reasonable.

 

I also don't buy the "marines spearhead in, kill the enemy's HQ, and the battle is over." That might work against some foes, but there is a reason most armies have a command infrastructure, so that command can be passed down the command chain. Certainly, lesser officers may not do as good a job, but there are plenty of times that the guys on the top of the heap or the blowhards and the men under them are the real ones who know whats going on.

 

Also, I'm not trying to say that space marines can't do what you say, such as go a month without sleep, run a long way without getting tired, etc etc, but the point I was making is that unless space marines have the ability to move of the Flash from the comic book, then there simply isn't enough of them to simply cover the ground required to hold a large area like the Fang. And thats where you say, "but the Fang also has bondsmen." and I say, "exactly." And those bondsmen need weapons, they already have the will to fight, they'll be organized into squads, and they'll have a command structure. It would be absolutely foolish to think otherwise. And so what, they may not be a typical PDF, but I seriously don't see a problem considering them as such for generic title purposes. No, its not their only duty, but they do defend the fang, the planet, whatever. So they are a defense force. And that is all the tabletop game of 40k deals with: combat, so why reject the notion that you could form an IG-esque army as a "PDF" for fenris? That is my question.

 

Why should it not be allowed, even fluffwise?

[Vash113]

My point concerning the fluff was not about the disparagy between fluff and reality but rather the disparagy between fluff within itself. Whenever it suits them, authors have power armored space marines dying in droves whilst still maintaining that a handful can take out the infrastructure of a planet. And on that topic, if any number of current day elite forces had access to teleportation technology, they could do that, too!

 

That's the problem with badly written fluff, most of it from the Black Library which is non-canon anymore and can be suitably ignored. Just because the Blood Angel series says the Chapter regularly has thousands of battle-brothers marching around in parade formation for no reason doesn't mean we actually hold that true for the Blood Angels.

 

I also don't buy the "marines spearhead in, kill the enemy's HQ, and the battle is over." That might work against some foes, but there is a reason most armies have a command infrastructure, so that command can be passed down the command chain. Certainly, lesser officers may not do as good a job, but there are plenty of times that the guys on the top of the heap or the blowhards and the men under them are the real ones who know whats going on.

 

Not really, most armies in the 40k Universe that wouldn't work. Orks, Eldar, IG, PDF, take out their high Command and they crumble. The Orks into infighting, the Eldar retreat without their Farseers, the IG and PDF are left dumbstruck. The lower commands are all trained to do nothing but what they are ordered, without orders the number of officers capable let alone willing to do things on their own are slim to none. That's why it works.

 

And those bondsmen need weapons, they already have the will to fight, they'll be organized into squads, and they'll have a command structure. It would be absolutely foolish to think otherwise. And so what, they may not be a typical PDF, but I seriously don't see a problem considering them as such for generic title purposes. No, its not their only duty, but they do defend the fang, the planet, whatever. So they are a defense force. And that is all the tabletop game of 40k deals with: combat, so why reject the notion that you could form an IG-esque army as a "PDF" for fenris? That is my question.

 

Why should it not be allowed, even fluffwise?

 

Because Chapter Bondsman are not a PDF. A PDF is a very specific military unit, as I said before not every bunch of guys wielding guns, organised into squads and defending a planet are PDF. Space Wolf Bondsman are well capable of defending a planet, they are probably not organised into squads or anything resembling an IG structure, rather they are most likely organised into Packs or Clans in the Fenresian Style. The Space Wolves disregard Imperial notions of structure why would their bondsman do so? Even if they were that does not make them a PDF.

 

Just because the term is "Planetary Defense Force" doesn't mean it blankets all yahoos that defend a planet, it applies only to a very specific group of organised and professional soldiers modeled after the Imperial Guard, commanded by a Governor and overseen by a Commissar from the Imperial Commissariate. Bondsman are not PDF, they don't bow down to any governor, they don't fall under the jurisdiction of commissars, they are servants to the Space Wolf Chapter and as such are serfs and bondsman.

 

I don't see anyone would even want a PDF for Fenris. PDF in general suck, they are horrible, poorly trained, poorly armed, poorly led, cowardly disgraces and looked down on.

 

Fenresian Bondsman on the other hand are highly trained, highly disciplined, highly motivated soldiers, crewman, technicians, engineers, pilots and so forth, more akin to Storm Troopers than anything else that could likely put Imperial Guard units to shame let alone the rag tag PDF of most planets. Bondsman are better than PDF or IG and should not be labeled as either, they are something else, something apart and something in pretty much all ways better.

[Jonny Wolf]

I also don't buy the "marines spearhead in, kill the enemy's HQ, and the battle is over." That might work against some foes, but there is a reason most armies have a command infrastructure, so that command can be passed down the command chain. Certainly, lesser officers may not do as good a job, but there are plenty of times that the guys on the top of the heap or the blowhards and the men under them are the real ones who know whats going on.

 

 

In the 80's and early 90's we would have Soviet and Chinese army officers to come visit us at Fort Bragg. They were simply amazed that we had young 20 year old sergeants leading training and taking charge of missions.

we were trained that the soviet military had ZERO initiative below the colonel level. Take out generals and colonels and the army WOULD stop.

 

My point: with the Facist infrastructure of the 40k universe (IG) it is quite concievable that the IG would simply 'stop' without the brains.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

yeah but then you have that one good soldier who always manages to take charge kill the incompetent idiot who took charge earlier and rallies the army to fight on in a stunning display of guerilla warfare uncharaistic of such armies.

 

and it all begins with the line... LETS GET SOME

[Jonny Wolf]

ha ha ha ha ha :)

[Battle-Brother Wags]

Because Chapter Bondsman are not a PDF. A PDF is a very specific military unit, as I said before not every bunch of guys wielding guns, organised into squads and defending a planet are PDF. Space Wolf Bondsman are well capable of defending a planet, they are probably not organised into squads or anything resembling an IG structure, rather they are most likely organised into Packs or Clans in the Fenresian Style. The Space Wolves disregard Imperial notions of structure why would their bondsman do so? Even if they were that does not make them a PDF.

 

So I'd like to call it "purple", but you demand "lavender", huh? Loosen up a little bit. I don't care what the technical definition of a PDF is. Whether it is a regimented and codified force or a bunch of natives in "packs" instead of "units" (because those aren't at all the same thing in terms of organization), the OP question was if there are forces aside from Space Wolves to protect the Fang, whether that be a IG Regimental type thing or native forces.

 

I think we have come to the conclusion that yes, there are PDF-"ish" forces available to defend the Fang.

[Vash113]

So I'd like to call it "purple", but you demand "lavender", huh? Loosen up a little bit. I don't care what the technical definition of a PDF is. Whether it is a regimented and codified force or a bunch of natives in "packs" instead of "units" (because those aren't at all the same thing in terms of organization), the OP question was if there are forces aside from Space Wolves to protect the Fang, whether that be a IG Regimental type thing or native forces.

 

I think we have come to the conclusion that yes, there are PDF-"ish" forces available to defend the Fang.

 

Don't tell me to lighten up, if a term has a specific definition, using that term in an improper way doesn't fly in my book, use the proper term and the proper definition if your going to bother at all. Fenris does not have a PDF or a PDF-ish force. It has something infinitely better. Even codifying Bondsman as PDF-ish is a huge disservice to them.

 

Hense why I said waaaaaay back when that representing Bondsman with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers would work just fine. I see no reason to bend the terms, spread misinformation or in other words be incorrect about something when there's no need to and the answer is fairly simple to begin with.