Grey Knights as fire support/Objective Defense

[TheLastHuzzah]

Greetings All,

 

Two weeks ago, I faced a gentleman with an SM army that used a unit of GK's. Fluff aside, why not bring these fellows as your home objective Defenders/Fast attack as the mission requires?

 

Unless the allies rules changed drastically from Daemonhunters to Witchhunters; it looks like Power Armoured GK can be chosen as a "troops" slot once the standard force org chart is filled (i.e. 1 GK, a GK or BC, HQ). If this is incorrect, please advise where I can find the correct answer so that I may pass the knowledge on. Assuming this is indeed how the ally rule works, take a look at the following:

 

 

GH Squad (10 gh, 1 WGPL)

 

Bolters (x8), Pgun(x1), Ppistol (x1), PW (x1), frags

WGPL- WP, PF, TDA, SB

 

Total- 268 (off the top of my head, codex not in front of me)

 

GK Squad (9 GK, 1 GKJ)

1 Psycannon

 

Total- 300

 

For what amounts to 33 points, I get:

 

Holier-than-thou-Emperor-powered Grit (True Grit with Stormbolters? Yes, please.)

18 SB shots (at 24"), 3 S6 (at 18" or 36") heavy bolter shots that ignore invulnerable saves.

Fearless

Modified Nightfighting rules to shoot at them

18 WS 5, S6 CC attacks (3 PW), 2 S4 CC attack*

Ability to pop light vehicles

The ability to Deepstrike, if one saves a Fast Attack slot

 

Versus:

 

True Grit (cool, but not Holier-than-thou)

10 Bolter shots (at 24"), 1 Plasma (at 24")

18 Bolter shots (at 12"), 3 Plasma (at 12")

19 S4 CC attacks (2 PW), 3 Pfist attacks*

Ability to pop light vehicles (a little better than GK)

 

*To make life easy, I used charging as the basis for melee combat.

 

 

In most cases, over a 5 turn game, GK should easily out-shoot the GH (math is a bit dicey, given movement, etc.)

 

Comparing both units at Full strength in CC (rounding decimals to the nearest whole number), I come up with the Following:

 

GK- 20 Attacks, 13 hits, 11 wounds (for posterity's sake, let's assume the Justicar hits & wounds on 2 attacks):

Total- 5 Dead GH (2 PW, 3 missed saves)

 

GH- 22 Attacks, 11 hits, 7 wounds (Giving the GH benefit of the doubt, 1 PW hit & wound, 2 PF hit & wound):

Total- 4 Dead GK (3 kills PF/PW, 1 missed save)

 

Aside from the general monetary pain($90 for a 10 man squad with some options, ouch!); it looks like they are a viable choice for Fire Support/objective defending over a squad of similarly equipped GH. What do you all think?

 

I apologize if this has been discussed at length anywhere else, but I am at work and didn't have time for an exhaustive search.

 

Cheers,

 

Huzzah

[Grey Mage]

The main reason I dont find them incredibly viable is the theyre expensive, even compared to grey hunters. That 10 man squad you mentioned without any uprades is 275pts. For that same price I could get a shooty 10 man Grey Hunter squad, with some plasma, and the razorback of my choice.

 

While the idea isnt entirely without merit there simply isnt enough Need for me to spend the cash on it.

[GunnarRedsun]

while yes they are better at long range, the overwhelming number of power weapons, and countercharge really make a difference. i actually play a grey knight player quite regularly, and he is always loathe to be in combat with my wolves, and at close range the number of shots is equal. and since we get countercharge, that means that the grey hunters can have more attacks than just the 2 (which means i only charge with blood claws). also that 33 points can make more than a difference for what i can field, be it more power weapons and plasma for my scouts, or wargear for my characters, its just one of those things. also, remember that while psycannons are str. 6 (not 5), they are only 18" if you move, and you loose nemisis force weapon for taking it. also, all you can buy a justicar is wargear. i can easily make an arguably better wolf guard leader for the same points or less. but thats my opinion, i hope it helps. cheers

[GunnarRedsun]

oh another thing, i noticed you only had 2 power weapon attacks, grey hunters can have up 3 power weapons/fists (or any mix of) including wg. each grey hunter has 2 attacks, so thats 4. also it doesn't seem you factored in the wg getting the charge bonus, as he has a bolter and power fist he doesn't get the extra attack in combat, he gets the charge. also, there is the psycannon trooper. he has only 1 attack, not 2. plus they all strike simo

[TheLastHuzzah]

@ Gunnar

 

I just want to make it clear that I wasn't suggesting GK of GH in all circumstances, but in the role of a fire support/objective holding unit (as in I might use 1 GK unit in the entire army). The GH are the closest thing SW have to a firing line (unlike tac marines from the other chapters).

 

I can easily tack on another 30 points to the GH squad (WTN, 1 more Ppistol, 1 PW) to do a side-by-side comparison; but strayed away from that as I don't fully outfit GH that are standing and holding an objective.

 

You are correct, I missed 1 attack with the WGPL. Adding the 3 items above to the combat we are looking at: 25 (+1 WGPL, +2 for the PPistol)attacks, 13 hits (2 Pfist, 2 PW), 10 wounds (2 pfist, 1 PW)-- 5 dead GK bringing the combat to a draw.

 

Given the draw in combat, I would still say the GK have the edge. Other marines notwithstanding(many factors could come into play), I think the GK will do more damage with shooting over a 5 turn game than would the GH.

 

Naturally, army selection, playstyle, available points, etc. will be a factor in the decision. Any other thoughts?

 

Cheers,

 

Huzzah

[Grey Mage]

Remember if you take them as a FA slot they are not scoring. Still a nasty suprise though for the never-teleport wolves eh?

 

As a troops choice Id really give them a Shoot Grey Hunter packs rhino and advance them up the field to take a closer objective... Str6 is nice IMHO.

[DapperDave]

I'm actually in the process of doing something very similar. As a little background - I started off playing tau, then went to Grey Knights / =I= for a change of pace (I currently have about 750 pts) and have recently decided to add some drunken space vikings to the mix.

 

Basically I'm aiming for a 1750ish list with about 500 pts in GKs (1BC w/psycannon with 3 GK Termies and small GKPA squad: 6 - 8 GKPAs including Justicar).

My reasoning is this, though all GKs are point-expensive, I think the Termies are the best deal and the GKPAs are there to be either, as you suggest, objective holders, or teleporting FAs for that "surprise!" factor.

Also, I would never buy a psycannon for GKPAs (well, maybe if they were only ever going to shoot)...but on Termies they can be very useful at providing targets to shoot at while you're moving into position (since they can always fire at the longer range and you don't give up a NFW). I'm also toying with including some ISTs as cheap objective holders / special weapons teams - but I'm not sure if they're worth shorting the space wolves side of things any more.

 

On a related note: Can allied HQs be taken? and if so, do they count towards the required HQ slots?

[SeanDrake]

I stand corected I need to learn to read better

[Bran Scalphunter]

No, because in a Space Wolf army, all HQ choices are mandatory. The Allies rules say that all mandatory choices must be made from the base army list (Space Wolf in this case). So no, you can never include an Allied HQ choice in a Space Wolf army, and because of that you cannot include Assassins (who require an Assassin to be fielded).

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, the silly FAQ closed up the only loop-hole too. *Sighs*.

[Focslain]

Remember if you take them as a FA slot they are not scoring. Still a nasty suprise though for the never-teleport wolves eh?

 

As a troops choice Id really give them a Shoot Grey Hunter packs rhino and advance them up the field to take a closer objective... Str6 is nice IMHO.

 

I like this option, might have to do this for my GK squad I normally use as a teleport attack.