Assault Marines Vs Bikes

[waaanial00]

Ok so after some search foo about bikes in the tactica section there are a number of posts about Assault Marines and Command squads (on bikes and off) but there does not seem to be a direct link between them. The closest I have found is a single statement of opinion is the following extract from shiny Rhino

 

Assault Marines are indeed a good way to get some melee support into a bike force. It's a really tough choice, IMO. The two serve radically different roles, and really can't be directly compared.

 

However I am rarely satisfied by only one persons opinion so I figured I would ask specifically which is better a small Assault squad or a small bike squad?

 

Some background so that people can comment specifically, I have a 1750 army packing a Jump Pack Chappy, 6 Termies with LRC, 3 Tac squads (2 Rhino, 1 Razorback), 10 man Assault squad.

 

This means that with some reconfiguration of upgrades etc I can add either another 5 man Assault squad (Lightning Claws) or a 4 man Bike Squad (Plama and Melta specials and Power Weapon).

 

Tried out the list with the assault squad and was not really impressed with the results and was wondering whether in most cases having the bike squad was a better option.

 

In general I dont see many single bike squads in lists posted on this site and figured I would ask why.

 

Sorry for the round about way I ask this question, just wanted to provide enough info so people could answer.

 

Wan

[greatcrusade08]

Assault squad or bike squad....

 

Its about personal preference and game styles. you need to weigh up pros and cons.

 

Assault troops are cheaper per model, and have a greater number of attacks.

The bike squad, has a greater toughness, a potentially greater movement, they can also carry special weapons (aside from flamers) and have relentless meaning they can shoot said special weapons and still move and assault...

 

The bike squad can still be upgraded to be good in CC with a power fist, but the biggest bonus is they can be taken as troops choices with a captain on bike...

 

IMO bikes are better in most cases.

 

GC08

[Koremu]

Bikes rely upon open ground, are severely disadvantaged by terrain, and are tough enough to survive open-field firepower for longer. They also have more firepower, but are somewhat less deadly in Assault. They have a very useful ability to Turbo-Boost, which can cause a surprising shift in the field of battle when used right.

 

Jump-Pack Assault Squads have a mixed reliance on terrain (some terrain is good for cover, but too much will cause losses), are better in the assault, but more fragile and have less firepower. They are also some 25% cheaper. Their main advantage compared to bikes is their supermobility - they only check terrain at the begining or end of the move, so are less vulnerable to it.

 

Vehicle-Mounted Assault Squads (which you didn't mention) are not vulnerable to terrain themselves, but their mobility asset is, which can cripple them as the battle progresses. Infantry Assault Squads also have the ability to occupy intact Buildings or Fortifications, which niether Bikes or Jump Packers can do.

 

 

 

Bike Squads are significantly more flexible. Compared to an Assault Squad of equivalent size they have fewer attacks, but this is reasonably compensated for by their Relentless firepower - especially when facing anything with Init4 or better. Their general firepower is also better, their AT firepower immeasurably so. They are highly mobile and can be scoring.

 

But they pay for those advantages.

[Jackelope King]

Agreed with the whole "bike squads and assault squads are completely different animals".

 

The only similarity between the two units is their general target: light infantry. Both bolters and the piles of attacks a decently-sized assault squad can get will deal significant wounds to light infantry.

 

That's where the similarities end.

 

Assault squads are really only ever good against light infantry. Sure, you can give them plasma pistols, but really, if you absolutely max them out, that's still only 3 plasma shots per turn, and they won't have enough power weapon attacks at the end of the day to rip through MEQs the way they can through lighter infantry. And yes, given a power fist or melta bombs or those plasma pistols, an assault squad can do the job against light vehicles, it's still not their killiest application. They're pretty good against light infantry, especially since the squad can pack two flamers, multiplying their killiness considerably by softening up the enemy before they charge. And when you add someone like a jump-pack chaplain or a melee-dedicated jump-pack captain, the squad becomes really scary and capable of dealing with even heavy infantry reasonably well. They aren't ever going to be as dangerous as assault Terminators, but they can push around anyone lighter than them quite well. The other very, very nice aspect of assault marines is that they serve as an excellent deterrent to assaults against other units. Place them behind your tactical squads against assault-specialized enemies, like many orks or tyranids, and then send the assault marines to counter-attack the enemy who charged your tactical squads during your assault phase. In a close fight, that might be enough to tip the balance in your favor.

 

Bike squads, on the other hand, are best thought of as very fast tactical squads (and if you take a bike captain, they share even more with tactical squads, since they become scoring). Where they shine is in the shooting phase: properly equipped, they have the answers to, well, almost everything. If you need dedicated anti-infantry firepower, they've got twin-linked bolters (which means more kills on average than an equal number of tactical marines) and you can always spend 40 points on an Attack Bike, which gives you a heavy bolter and an ablative wound. If you're going hunting for monstrous creatures or vehicles, plasma and meltas are available. They're a little shy on attacks when it comes time to assault (though the fact they get to unload with twin-linked bolters prior to the assault and can also pack a pair of flamers very, very cheaply can mitigate these factors), but their improved toughness makes them a fairly effective tarpit / hunter, especially against units weaker in melee. However, once you add a bike captain to the mix, and maybe give him a relic blade or power fist, the big guy can almost make up for the lack of kills himself and make the bike squad quite effective at killing off non-assault specialists or cleaning up just about any sufficiently damaged squad (and the bike squad's shooting can put quite a dent in many units). But, like tactical squads, bike squads are capable of an assault when that's the best course of action, though they have more bite when they're able to unload with bolters and the like. They're also the most mobile unit that the marines can field, really (turbo boost for the win). You have to weave a bit and avoid difficult terrain with them, but on most boards, you should be okay.

 

So in short: if you want someone to run around the flank harrassing the enemy infantry or tanks, bring bikes. If you'd rather have a little extra push in close-combat, the assault squad is a better bet.

[Warp Angel]

My $.02 on bikes vs. assault marines.

 

Both fill the role of "Cleaners". This means that they're able to run around kicking weakened or weak units off of objectives, or obliterate them entirely.

 

Neither of them should be relied upon to act as primary "Killers" for your army. Instead, they should be used to follow behind your killing units to make them more effective.

 

As others have pointed out, Bikes are generally more durable and flexible. Assault Marines are better in assault.

 

But I pose this scenario to you:

 

Assault Marines are within assault distance of a guard squad of 10 men. Equipped with flamer and 2x plasma pistol, power fist.

Shoot 7 bolt pistols, hit 4, kill 3. Shoot two plasma pistols, hit 1, kill 1. Shoot a flamer and get 3, kill 2. 6 dead guardsmen in shooting, you're going to wipe them on the charge without blinking.

 

Bikes are within assalt distance of a guard squad of 10 men. Equipped with flamer, plasma gun, power fist, multi melta.

Shoot 7 twin linked bolters, hit 12, kill 8, flamer gets 3, kills 2, plasma gun shoots 2, kills 1. Multi melta might get one. You don't need to risk the assault.

 

Left in the open, the bikes have T5, the assault marines T4.

 

And this scenario:

 

Assault Marines vs. MEQ

Shoot 7 bolt pistols, kill 1. Shoot two plasma pistols, kill 1. Shoot flamer, kill maybe 1. You're charging against 7+ with 27 s4 attacks, hitting 14, wounding 7, killing 2, and you'll get 1 with the PF. 4 still alive. They'll get 1-2 kills back, meaning you're trapped in combat unless they fail a Ld at -2 or -3.

 

Bikes vs. MEQ

Shoot 7 TL bolters, hit 12, wound 6, kill 2. 2 plasma gun shots, killing 1, 1 multi melta shot killing maybe 1. Flamer gets maybe 1. That's 6 of them left alive. You assault with 17 base and 3 PF. Hit 8, wound 4, kill 1. PF gets 1. THere are still 4 left alive. They are UNLIKELY to get more than 1 attack back at you. You still win combat by about 2, with the same number left alive. Later rounds you've got the T advantage to continue winning combat while assault marines will die off faster.

 

The initial charge performance is about the same, so you can use them for pretty much the same thing. The assault Marines do better in subsequent rounds, or against horde opponents with squad sizes greater than 10, but either squad should be able to break a horde of 20 or less in the first round of shooting + charge.

 

Bikes have better staying power when out in the open, but suffer from a lack of ability to take cover and move through terrain.

Assault Marines are useless at ranges greater than 18", where bikes can usually maneuver into rapid fire range within 24" of an enemy, and can fire at any unit within 36" with better firepower than a tactical squad.

 

It really depends on the rest of your army which works best. Multiple assault squads are probably more effective and easier to use together than multiple bike squads, but bike squads compliment any unit (including assault marines) well.

 

Chaplains provide better benefit to the assault marines, but make the Bike squad immensely better in hand to hand.

 

You're the general, it's your choice.

 

I prefer bikes because of the greater flexibility.

[Democratus]

The above comparison seems to have 10 Assault Marines vs. 10 Biker Marines. Do they cost the same? I seem to remember that Bikes cost a good bit more than Assault troops.

[Koremu]

The above comparison seems to have 10 Assault Marines vs. 10 Biker Marines. Do they cost the same? I seem to remember that Bikes cost a good bit more than Assault troops.

 

Assault Squads can be reasonably assumed to cost 250 points, Bike Squads more like 300.

 

I mentioned this in my post.

[Warp Angel]

The above comparison seems to have 10 Assault Marines vs. 10 Biker Marines. Do they cost the same? I seem to remember that Bikes cost a good bit more than Assault troops.

 

10 Assault vs. 8 bikes + 1 attack bike. Don't know the cost of the Assault squad off the top of my head, but the bikes are 310 in that config.

 

I decry the notion of "points" being a valid way of choosing between similar units. Overall effectiveness and battleplan, as well as integration into the army as a whole needs to be considered.

[Jackelope King]

For 235 points, you're packing my personal favorite 10 assault marines + 1 fist + 2 flamers. I think you hit 255 for adding a plasma pistol on the sergeant and replacing one of the flamers with a plasma pistol.

[Reinholt]

I decry the notion of "points" being a valid way of choosing between similar units. Overall effectiveness and battleplan, as well as integration into the army as a whole needs to be considered.

 

Of course points need to be considered!

 

If we're going to compare a ten man scout squad versus a ten man terminator assault squad as assault options for an army, the latter is uniformly stronger against all foes, but you're paying out the nose for it; points, I think, are the paramount concern at all times.

 

However, to support your comment, what matters is not being the cheapest, but rather, effectiveness per point paid. In other words, if I pay 15 points for a model that is only half as useful to me as a model I can get for 21 points, it's a stupid decision to take the cheaper one. What I would advocate at all times, for all lists, with no exceptions, is spending points on the best return on cost units at all times.

 

Some background so that people can comment specifically, I have a 1750 army packing a Jump Pack Chappy, 6 Termies with LRC, 3 Tac squads (2 Rhino, 1 Razorback), 10 man Assault squad.

 

I would add neither a bike squad nor an assault squad to this list; you create a false dilemma by asking only if you should take those two (unless you own models for both, and aren't going to be getting anything else, in which case it's a real dilemma, but I didn't see that in the original post - if so, ignore my commentary for your specific case).

 

This list suffers from two issues that make me think neither is effective:

 

1 - You do not have a captain on a bike, so your bike units do not count as troops and thus scoring units. In this case, you are paying for a unit that, while dangerous, lacks some of the tactical flexibility of bike squads with a different HQ choice in 2/3rds of the missions you face.

 

2 - You already have 3 tactical squads as generalists with only two specialist units backing them up, and you already have an assault squad. Thus, it seems like you neither need more generalists (you have them) nor do you need another assault squad (you have one).

 

3 - The biggest weakness your army faces is anti-tank firepower. How would you handle a three land raider list? How about three falcons, two wave serpents, and a jet bike seer council Eldar list?

 

I think the real reason you aren't finding a good answer here is that neither a bike squad nor an assault squad is a good answer. I would take some Land Speeders or Attack Bikes for anti-tank (with multi-meltas) that is maneuverable, as you are clearly mechanized and able to re-deploy, or maybe some predators or vindicators, depending on your personal style.

[Warp Angel]

Reinholt gives good advice. It all works, except for the points thing. I think he and I agree here, but are using different ways to describe it.

 

If you need a terminator squad, you need a terminator squad. The points aren't as important as the need. If you need a bike squad (and he's right, you probably don't), then you should be figuring out how to make a bike squad fit with the points you have available, not leaving them out because they cost too much. Because there's no substitute for bikes, just like there's no substitute for whatever it is that your army needs.

 

Attack Bikes or Landspeeders (both have pros and cons) equipped for anti-tank should supplement your list well.

[waaanial00]

Thanks for all the replies Ladies and Gents.

 

Sadly Reinholts guess that I am limited by models is astute. I do have a model purchase embargo this year (toooo many Orks bought last year and too many Marines sat on a shelf gathering a thick layer of dust). I have alternatives to fit the gap with a bit of list-foo chopping and patching where neccessary. Annoyingly the only Landspeeders I have are HD/AC ones which were good in previous editions and still might be worth it in this edition but not in this list. Oh well my Predator Annihilator will probably fill the gap after a good go with my bike squad on Tuesday (Death Guard army who always grinds me into the dirt or forces me to a draw).

 

From my playtest on last tuesday both points 2 and 3 were shown in big neon pink writing on the wall as I faced up against an Eldar player, my smaller Assault squad did NOTHING the entire game except hide and eventually get star cannoned back to the homeworld. Plus I did find that there was nothing I could do about his Wave Serpents or Wraithlord.

 

Hey whoever said winning was everything anyway :P

 

Cheers all

 

Wan