Help with the horde armies

[minigun762]

Simple question, with the Orks tearing up in competitive play and the Imperial Guard coming out in the near future (4point Guardsmen?) its clear that we have to start working on our anti-horde capabilities.

 

One of the big changes was the lack of consolidation into combat, because that means you can't be "safe" in assault but you're exposed for atleast a turn. So how do we handle this, assaulting with multiple units? Assaulting multiple units at the same time?

 

People often talk about dropping templates on the units, but templates have short ranges and require you to get up close and personal with the enemy which puts you in charge range (Orks) or rapid fire range of multiple squads (IG). It also runs the problem of how you bring enough templates to cover a 100+ model army without weakening your ability to combat MEQs or armor.

 

We can attempt to counter the horde armies by going with an infantry heavy build ourselves, but even 50-60 MEQs will have a hard time against twice or three times their numbers. And this means that the small elite armies or 20-30 infantry models will be incredibly hard pressed to handle that many bodies, they simply can't generate that much killing in that short of time.

 

Lastly, there are blast weapons coming up and the good news is that with so many models on the table, even if you scatter you're still likely to hit something. Weapons like the Missile Launcher are nice because they work for infantry killing or busting open their tanks.

 

I'll quit talking here but I'd like to get some good plans (both units and actual tactics) on how to handle the 100+ model armies out there.

[Koremu]

IG and Orks don't really have a lot in common besides both having a lot of models.

 

With IG Infantry, you basically have to assess which units of IG you want to target. You just don't have time to kill 'em all, so you need to pick out the tactically important ones - scorers and those who are guarding important things like tanks. The rest of the grunts, you should kill if and only if absolutely necessary. The ones that are important, you should crush without mercy.

 

Still, at the end of the day it is better to be in assault with IG than to try and outgun them.

 

 

 

Orks work more like 'nids. Mixed quality Infantry, with the aim of the game being to take down the hardest models, while the Ork player tries to protect his valuable models with his cannon fodder.

[commander alexander]

My opinion is simple but relatively effective. Go with assault oriented units against guard, and the M. launcher is effective as you said. Orks are a different story altogether, orks are best at assault, but dont ever, ever, ever underestimate their shooting, they have a worse BS than guard but have just as many guns that are more powerful than any las-#$%&.

Hope it helps :P

[Primarch Corax]

I know. When I played Orks a few days ago, I presumed he was going to run in the shooting phase... my poor marines, they never saw it coming...

[Frosty the Pyro]

Well with guard try not to kill them all on a charge (multi assult can help with this), if you do you WILL get shot up, if however you kill them off in the next assult phase (the enemies) they will not get shot up, and can then assult the next turn (wich is yours). This means quite honestly that sometimes you need to NOT fire your pistols into the oposition, you want them to survive with as few models as posible (this can gets tricky cus they have to pass the moral save).

 

with orks, templates are your freinds, missles are great (krak kills nobs, frag kills boys), and if you have the extra points dont snub Telion, he can take out that mad dok givin the nob mobz feal no pain. (nob hard boys with a mad doc are MEAN). the vindicator is probly a good one too, as the 24" range doesnt mater as much when the orks will come to you.

[Koremu]

Well with guard try not to kill them all on a charge (multi assult can help with this), if you do you WILL get shot up, if however you kill them off in the next assult phase (the enemies) they will not get shot up, and can then assult the next turn (wich is yours). This means quite honestly that sometimes you need to NOT fire your pistols into the oposition, you want them to survive with as few models as posible (this can gets tricky cus they have to pass the moral save).

Point here: against IG it would be better to Combat Squad unless absolutely necessary. Most of their really dangerous firepower is blasts, which you want to spread out for, and you seriously don't need 10 Assault Marines to kill a squad of PBIs, especially if you want to remain lock in combat for their shooting.

[minigun762]

How practical is it to rely on the Bolter to do the job?

 

Figure something like 30 Bolters = 20 hits = 10/13 wounds per turn so maybe 60-78 dead guys over the course of a game, seems fairly good at killing the little guys.

[bystrom]

How practical is it to rely on the Bolter to do the job?

 

Figure something like 30 Bolters = 20 hits = 10/13 wounds per turn so maybe 60-78 dead guys over the course of a game, seems fairly good at killing the little guys.

 

Well, that's either 30 marines or 15 marines in rapid-fire, probably fighting 100 or 50 IG, count in that maybe half have a cover save of 4+, and that they're shooting back, that 60-78 dead is probably around 30-40. Bolters will do the job I guess, but you'll need to cut LOS, which isn't very easy, as rhinos are quite easy to destroy and land raiders are expensive and, IG will probably get some super-tank destroyer ;) . I've been thinking of getting myself a whirlwind, both as it fires as barrage, its using the big template and it can ignore cover saves (and its cheap to boot!). I don't have much experience fighting horde armies, so I'll watch this thread and see what kind of solutions you guys come up with.

 

Otherwise, how well would forcing them to move ruin their shooting? I'm thinking something in line with outflanking/drop podding up a flank to force them to react either by moving away or getting bunched up/in the way of each other. Then some sort of cleansing/close fighting using bolters.

[foster]

Drop-podded Iron clads would do the job nicely, tough armoured and can take twin-linked bolters, meltaguns, flamers and hunter killer missiles. Have one of these drop in near an opponants main weapons (anything with deadly shooting and range) and watch the opposing team scramble to destroy it, hopefully if the dreadnoughts' target gets destroyed that will be one less thing firing on your main force.

[DevianID]

There are actually many ways to deal with horde, the main problem with dealing with horde is that usually for each anti-horde option you bring you lose an anti-tank option.

 

Thus if I bring out some metagame arguments, as I am prone to do, you basicly can build a list to have strong vehicle metagame or a strong horde metagame or 50/50 for each. However, when determining the value of each list per the metagame (IE, what will you more commonly run up against), antivehicle is much safer, as many more armies are mech than horde, and horde is much more expensive and much more intensive to paint than a smaller, more elite mech army, thus explaining why mech is so prolific.

 

Since orks especially are popular now (and assault on black reach provides a cheaper alternative to fielding the horde), and IG, as the OP pointed out, are due for a new codex with cool new models/rules, horde may become a more major concern than mech. I hope so, I enjoy a more rock paper scissors game, and forcing you to choose horde vs mech accomplishes this well.

 

As for actual anti-horde options, assault is one possible solution as some pointed out. Pedro with his +1 attack buff (+1 attack terminators!), Dante+Corbulo for blood angels, Black Templars with accept any challenge vow (and furious assault terminators!), and Belial + many of his terminator friends, all these make for armies that can beat entire hordes in one or two assault phases, capitalizing on fearless combat resolution to bring the hurt even to 30 man ork mobs, and still deal with nob bikers with lots of instant death.

 

Another option for space marines, depending on the mission of course, is the rhino wall/rhino rush. Rhinos can completely block fire lanes to objective holders, and can also tank shock through enemy objective holders to contest objectives late game. Thus rhinos can buy you many turns safe from reprisial. If the enemy is assault based, the 12 inch speed on rhinos will prevent the enemy from reaching you until you get cornered, but by then you have had many shooting phases to thin the horde, and you probably spread him out chasing down all your rhinos, allowing you to defeat him in detail. This basicly boils down to playing mech marines in the end.

 

As for unit advice, my favorite unit currently for codex space marines is the 10 man termie squad with 2 cyclones, with pedro as the HQ. Sure, this unit is 460 points even before pedro, but the ability to lob 4 st8 shots at nob bikers or vehicles, or 4 blast templates and 20 storm bolter shots at a horde unit, plus the 40 power fist (including pedro) attacks on the charge, mean that there is nothing this unit cant take on. The termies are also screened well by rhinos, for when you face down something like 21 plasma guns. Thus, this unit finds a home in both space marine assault lists and space marine mech lists.

 

Another unit worth noting is the multimelta attack bike squad. These provide the multimelta shots to deal with nob bikers or vehicles, and with twin linked bolters, 2 base attacks and T5, they beat small squads of guard or orks in close combat, plus are fast enough to hit the enemy quickly. For example, a unit of 3 multimelta attack bikes charging a unit of 15 ork lootas, the bikes get 9 shots going in and then 9 attacks in clsoe combat... thus roughly 4 dead lootas. The lootas swinging back do at most 2 wounds, thus they lose combat by 2--more if one of the assault buff space marines are being played (pedro, dante+corbs, templars).

[Captain Idaho]

I'd say that assault is the best way to damage a hoard army. As Space Marines are low in number, a shooting match against Guard and even Orks will likely end in disaster; Imperial Guard will not lose enough guys before their heavier weaponary cripples your force while Orks will be on top of you before you can out shoot them.

 

A powerful unit of Space Marines can kill a big unit of Orks on the charge and dramatically even up the numbers in a single turn. Imperial Guard just cannot defeat you in close combat (with the exception of Rough Riders, who you only shoot to pieces if you are charging anyway!), so have to target your assault unit after you kill off one of their units. This means your other units will be less likely to be targetted.

 

It's possible to charge more than 1 unit at once too, killing off multiple Guard squads in a single turn.

 

If you blast apart a Tyranid players Genestealers and Hive Tyrants you can safely counter charge them with your own assault troops and win the day. A unit of Honour Guard will carve through a Carnifex no problem, now you have S6 weapons and S4 power weapons in bucket fulls in there.

 

Trick is to lay down fearsome firepower whilst also presenting a challenge in the Assault phase. Your firepower weakens the enemies ability to hurt you, while your assault unit(s) deliver a hammer blow.

 

Thing is, don't be a rabbit in the head lights.

[waaanial00]

I know. When I played Orks a few days ago, I presumed he was going to run in the shooting phase... my poor marines, they never saw it coming...

 

He he he, sorry but I played as Orks for a year before deciding to use my Marines again and I can tell you that you are not the only one to have made this assumption and been shocked. Favourite is my ever annoying 10 grots, they have claimed more Terminator armour than anything else in my Ork army. Noone ever expects them do do anything with assault 1 S3 weapons. Boy are they devastated when they find out how accurate their fire can be :lol:

 

Dealing with that many models is always about prioritising what you need to kill and keeping a cool head long enough to win. Killing 100+ Ork models is actually very difficult under the new rules however killing enough to win you the game is tricky but achievable. Short range templates are useful against Orks because you are much better off charging them than letting them charge you, however as you stated they are close range weapons and therefore you have to look directly into the maw in order to use them.

 

I prefer to use the cover against them, there is nothing more annoying to an Ork player than having his 30 boys going at a snails pace because his own units are getting in his way. Therefore drop pod some dreads in tactical choke points and hold up some of the bigger units, that way it forces the ork to break up his battle line and generally slows his approach, Ironclads are perfect for this as there are very few units in the Ork arsenal that can get rid of this menace once in combat and it has the added bonus of being able to move through cover to catch any annoying Orks which would rather try to sneak through the cover than come get him.

 

It matters not that you have forced the orks into getting cover saves because being such a mass of green they are goign to get them most of the time anyway. The name of the game when fighting this many Orks is slowing them down so that they essentially dont get use. Big templates are nice such as Whirlwind and Vindicator and the common bolter is pretty good its just that you never seem to have enough shots to get rid of enough so be prepared to soften up the units and charge into them, once those orks start running they are never coming back.

[kaiserstole20]

As for unit advice, my favorite unit currently for codex space marines is the 10 man termie squad with 2 cyclones, with pedro as the HQ. Sure, this unit is 460 points even before pedro, but the ability to lob 4 st8 shots at nob bikers or vehicles, or 4 blast templates and 20 storm bolter shots at a horde unit, plus the 40 power fist (including pedro) attacks on the charge, mean that there is nothing this unit cant take on. The termies are also screened well by rhinos, for when you face down something like 21 plasma guns. Thus, this unit finds a home in both space marine assault lists and space marine mech lists.

 

I do the same thing with Lysander. 10 Storm Bolters with to-hit re-rolls is pretty crazy. Even with bad rolling a 20 boy mob disappears from existence on the 2nd turn of shooting. Either way it doesn't exist or has probably broken on the first turn.

[Yeril]

Without sounding typicall, Thunderfire cannons-whirlwinds and Sternguard will win the day.

 

Thunderfire/whirlwinds can lay down some large (Or multiple small) blasts, cover ignoring with enough AP to ignore puny ork plates aswell.

 

Sternguard will mow orks down with their special dragonfire bolts, and heck, a decent amount of combi-flamers will turn a mob of ANY size into ashes.

[Ming]

Hey, I recently had to fight a "new" kind of horde - the CC ELDAR Horde. In a 1750 game the player had NO vehicles - just 1 wraithlord, 1 pathfinder squad, 1 Avatar, 2 magic users, 1 Reaper squad, and the rest were all different kinds of Eldar tooled for CC. Except for the pathfinders and reapers, pretty much everything else ran forward to get in charge range.

 

We had rolled up annihilation, DoW, and I ended up on the bad side of the killpoints.

 

I had a tooled up captain, 2 full tac squads /w rhinos, whirl, vindi, dread, demi ML/PC devs, demi stern, full assault, epistolibby (Smite/Quick).

 

My biggest mistakes were [take note of these common issues] (1) combat squading the tacs - made it easier for him to get kill points with the reapers and pathfinders hitting demi-units; (2) not concentrating - should have kept to a tighter gunline - could have made the reapers innefective by placing terrain between them and me - Eldar had setup and choice of deployment); (3) not remembering searchlights for turn 1 - would have made the nightfighting turn easier for me w/ no penalty on the return fire; (4) better sternguard deployment (needed a better arc of fire); (5) using my dice - as usual I'm prone to scatter and rolling 1's - not that can be helped (not a real issue, just a matter of perception); (6) getting into situations where I could shoot an eldar squad down to one survivor who would hide alone behind terrain where I could not finish them off for a kill point; (7) wasting fire on Eldar units that always got cover saves due to their wargear, in the open, with fortune, etc. rather than easier and more important kills (sometimes the closest enemy unit is not the correct target - in this case, the reapers and pathfinders were more important turns 1-2).

 

My anti-horde MVP moments - moving forward to rapid fire and smite an oncoming Eldar squad (the green guys with mandiblasters) to wipe them out before they could charge; my captain charging another cheesey eldar squad solo, to kill off the survivors HTH - a huge gambit because of the Eldar I values). The Stern were able to use their special ammo to take out the Avatar...yeah for 2+ wounding and rapid fire on that bad boy....the assault guys challenged the pathfinders, causing the eldar player to interpose with a high-value squad, a bit of a tarpit for me, but also kept my dread alive).

 

My next 1750 army list drops the epistolary honors, adds another whirlwind...am working to locate / add mor meltaguns (of no use BTW on a Avatar...). I just bought a little pocket notebook to keep track of my dumb mistakes...things not to do...and sorted by opponent type, just to keep the tactics on track....

[Imperator Mos]

I didn't catch every word of this thread, but I'm pretty sure we left out the trusty Heavy Bolter. They are an option for several units, and I cant even remember the last time I played against a Space Marine army that included a dude carrying one. Anti-inf Predator, Devs and Mini-dev Sternguard would seem to be the best applications. I've been thinking about building a 4 HB Devastator squad for the Constrictors. Hey that unit works for SOB, why not Astartes?

[Guest TheRevenant]

It also runs the problem of how you bring enough templates to cover a 100+ model army without weakening your ability to combat MEQs or armor.

Try using so many template weapons that you dominate all things T4 and below, regardless of save. My salamanders do it just fine. I haven't had a plasma gun in my army in over a year, but I kill plenty of MEQ.

[Frosty the Pyro]

It also runs the problem of how you bring enough templates to cover a 100+ model army without weakening your ability to combat MEQs or armor.

Try using so many template weapons that you dominate all things T4 and below, regardless of save. My salamanders do it just fine. I haven't had a plasma gun in my army in over a year, but I kill plenty of MEQ.

 

 

indeed the secret is weight of dice, if you make em roll 30 saves, they are going to fail 10 of them.

[minigun762]

It also runs the problem of how you bring enough templates to cover a 100+ model army without weakening your ability to combat MEQs or armor.

Try using so many template weapons that you dominate all things T4 and below, regardless of save. My salamanders do it just fine. I haven't had a plasma gun in my army in over a year, but I kill plenty of MEQ.

 

Thats a great point and one that I actually toss out alot too.

On average 3 Flamer hits = 1 Plasma shot.

The downside of the Flamer is you typically only get 1 shot before you're charging/charged while you will get 3+ shots from a Plasmagun thanks to the longer range.

[foster]

I didn't catch every word of this thread, but I'm pretty sure we left out the trusty Heavy Bolter. They are an option for several units, and I cant even remember the last time I played against a Space Marine army that included a dude carrying one. Anti-inf Predator, Devs and Mini-dev Sternguard would seem to be the best applications. I've been thinking about building a 4 HB Devastator squad for the Constrictors. Hey that unit works for SOB, why not Astartes?

 

I've recently used a 3 heavy bolter Attack Bike Squadron against Nids and they were very usefull as a fire support unit. Though they came on the field too late to do anything much they managed to finish of a fex and killed half a unit of 20 genestealers in shooting and assualt (with the support of a severly reduced Tactical squad and thier bolters). They may not be masters of combat, but they sure can take punishment.

 

3 heavy bolter attack bikes are great at making big dents in small units (e.g. Lootas, Nob squads etc). With these you get a very mobile heavy weapon unit with potential range of 48", with this unit there's nowhere those pesky 1 man units can hide.

[Captain Idaho]

I've recently used a 3 heavy bolter Attack Bike Squadron against Nids and they were very usefull as a fire support unit. Though they came on the field too late to do anything much they managed to finish of a fex and killed half a unit of 20 genestealers in shooting and assualt (with the support of a severly reduced Tactical squad and thier bolters). They may not be masters of combat, but they sure can take punishment.

 

3 heavy bolter attack bikes are great at making big dents in small units (e.g. Lootas, Nob squads etc). With these you get a very mobile heavy weapon unit with potential range of 48", with this unit there's nowhere those pesky 1 man units can hide.

 

Definitely mate. They are great at killing Imperial Guard support units too, who are lurking at the back sniping away, as they have speed, firepower and 9 attacks on the charge.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

I do the same with three 2x HB speeders. With 36 inch range they can start killing first turn and can move out of range easily. Move 6" fire, 6" fire, 6" fire, 6" fire turbo boost 24" contest objective. That's how my speeders roll. Waste a turn of AT on them or watch your hordes die by thde dozens :(

[Captain Idaho]

Emperor's teeth! That's a mighty 18 S5 shots a turn for 180pts! For 360pts I can have 36 shots a turn, that's Eldar standard!

[minigun762]

Have people been able to get the job done just using pie plates (of various types) or do you really need the multi-shot weapons to finish off the units?

[Reinholt]

That would depend which pie plates.

 

Whirlwinds are classic anti-horde weaponry. If your opponent has large blocks of troops and you have a couple of whirlwinds, your opponent won't have those large blocks of troops for long. Especially when you take a couple of them, they can really blow the hell out of opposing horde armies.

 

However, Whirlwinds are terrible against most vehicles.

 

Vindicators, on the other hand, are anti-almost everything. There's very few units in the game that want to come face to face with one of these guys. The downside is that they are short-ranged, the upside is that short of multi-wound models with eternal warrior or models with extremely good armor saves, they are going to blow the hell out of anything they get a clean (or even semi-clean) shot off on.

 

In terms of meta-game, there's not a lot of things other than 'Nidzilla (where doing only one wound per shot is sub-par) and Daemons (lots of invulnerable saves) that I find my Vindicators to be sub-par against. So if you aren't playing those armies often, they are no-brainer tanks to take on a lot of the other armies in the game, both horde and mech, effectively.