Help with the horde armies

[minigun762]

Vindicators, on the other hand, are anti-almost everything. There's very few units in the game that want to come face to face with one of these guys.

 

Vindicators, and in the case of Chaos, Defilers were what I was talking about mostly.

Like you said they're anti-everything which makes them nice and flexible.

The potential downside is the unreliability of the scatter dice, but if you're firing enough pie plates, one of them should hit and often, all you need is 1 direct hit to say "bye bye squad"

[ItsPug]

Hi

I play a lot of city fights and a whirlwind or two really sorts out the hordes that normally excel at these. the Incendiary castellan missile has a high enough strength and AP to do damage to the low toughness/save horde units and ignores cover (and LOS if you fire a barrage) though they can be a bit inaccurate. but hey - everything counts in large amounts

[Ming]

Yep, that why I'm running a triple pie plate (2W1V) force now. That eats up the heavy slot.

 

On the other hand, thanks for the HB AB vs HB LS ideas...I usually only fill 2 FA slots.

 

An elite slot anti-horde option might be trying a Tech marine w/ HB servitors. Where I run cloaked sniper scouts, having that tech marine + 4HB option might be a interesting force multiplier (scouts in rubble go to a 2+ cover save..., the tech marine might be able to repair a damaged whirl or V if needed, etc.).

[kaiserstole20]

It's a huge point sink, but 10 shooty terminators with 2 cyclone missile launchers is an evil trick against orks. They seem to have no end of Str 8, AP3 weapons, which are actually more dangerous to light tanks than terminators. You know they are coming to you, so if you back up to blunt their forward movement you are likely going to have 2-3 turns of shooting before the boyz touch you. Adding Lysander to the mix keeps more storm bolters on the table, which is a good thing.

 

Have an assault squad ready to deny charge or counter-charge and you'll get them on a sweeping advance.

 

*eta - Lysander also adds the to-hit re-rolls for storm bolters, which is great on shooty terminators

[Pasch]

Use Thunderfire Cannons,

 

They're more consistent than Whirlwinds and more versatile.

 

4 blast templates at S6 (Instant death vs T3)

 

4 blast templates at S5 no cover save

 

4 blast templates at S4 forcing a difficult terrain check vs infantry (slows down assault based Ork armies) or dangerous terrain against any vehicle (very effective against units like Eldar bikers since Fortune doesn't reroll wounds from terrain)

 

60 inch range is most of the board and out of range from reprisal for at least one turn.

 

If the cannon dies you get a free 50 point Techmarine.

 

4 shots is better than 1 pie plate in my opinion, since scattering once or twice is not a huge problem.

[foster]

Have people been able to get the job done just using pie plates (of various types) or do you really need the multi-shot weapons to finish off the units?

 

If you were against a player new to the game then I would say go for lots of templates. But I've recently went up against a Nid player who had spread out his units in such a way I couldn't get more then 2 modals under an ordanace template, against opponants like these you're better off with multi shot weapons or build a strategy to clump the enemy modals together so you can exploit thier vulnerablility to template blasts.

 

I'm really starting to love bike squadrons due to thier relentless; meaning that thier TL bolters get to fire their maximum range "while moving", heavy weapons can be fired "while moving" and "while shooting" they can assualt with weapons that don't allow normal units to charge. Bikes are the perfect counter unit that are tough enough to take punishment, fast enough to hit a horde army where it hurts and can dish out the hurt with well chosen upgrades, weaponary or charactors (a captain on bike can make bike squads count as troops as well improving the units combat effectivness). The only problem is they are expensive to buy as well as expensive in points (not enough for what they can do). IMHO a fully upgraded bike squad with captain, attack bike and all is perfect for supporting all your units in any given situation (be it combat support, shooting support or to recieve a charge). They are perfect units for witling troops from afar until a target unit is weak enough so they can be cleaned off the field when they are rapid fired and then assualted upon.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

For me & my Iron Warriors when it come down to fighting the Green Hordes of Orks I have one simple tactica being, do not allow them to assault you by turn 2.

 

By this I mean....

 

In my games I aim for go second for a few reason be it object grabing & also in the event of orks Turn 1 tell me what kind of ork player they are eg:

- Turn 1 they run everthing they can = Second turn assault no dout about that

- Turn 1 they try blasting you first in hope of soft you up a bit, they are waiting & weak you until they are ready to attack (turn 3ish)

 

Well take the 12 inch pitch battle set up as a exsample.

 

*my d-zone* 12 inch

24 inch apart

*Ork d-zone 12 inch*

 

This is on a four by 6 foot table

 

Now thing is ork will alway set up the full 12 inch

 

Then you can count on the following

 

Ork d-zone 12 inch

Turn 1 ork move 6 inch

Say they RUN!!! another 6 inch

So far that been 24 inch in one turn

 

By turn 2, add onto that

Turn 2, move another 6 inch

WAAHHH say another 6

Then assault 6 inch, that a total of 18

 

A 6 by 4 foot, the four foot area being 48 inch. The orks with in two turn have already 12 set up + 6 move + 6 run then turn 2 move another 6 + another 6 for Wahhh & then + the 6 inch assault that a total of 42 inch.

 

The way I try to stop this turn two assault & hopeful (if first time battling me) weaste there wahhhh!!! I'd try to set up with them being a mere one inch away (also tell me if they been cheating as well in a event of a tournament). As said the table is 48 inch, ork have already move 42 inch that 6 inch of space you pretty much got.

So for my set up I would set up 5 inch from my table side to be on the same side.

 

This deny them there turn 2 assault, as said if it the first time they battle me, hopeful they weasted there WAAAHHH. Then it allow me to assault them on my turn 2 with 30 Chaos Space Marines (nice 3 attack per one + a Power Weapon champ) & not forgetting there Bolt Pistol, I will also have my Obliterators useing there twin linked Flamers & finial I have my Daemon Prince helping my Chaos Space Marine adding a but more punch.

Also if I am luck with my Deep Strike roll I will have two unit of 4 Termies deep strike down near Icon & unleash there combi Plasma into any tanks (say Dreadnought) or just use Combi Bolter to futher soften them up.

Then after that turn my Termies are ready to assault with a might 12 power weapon attack per squad (as long as there been no loss)

 

I'll also try to use my Rhinos (for my 3x 10 man squads) to trap the orks so when they reach a point of fail a Ld, they will be trap by my Rhinos & be killed.

 

It will be most close combat from then on, but rememeber I charge the orks so no S4 attack in return (once I not killed in combat).

 

It work 99% of the time, the 1% was down to bad dice rolling due to oppent move his Ork into terrain & me not getting higher than a 2 for DT test :D & them assault me on turn 3 picking of part my army.

 

But yes it work so far & I alway aim to attack a flank & work my way to the other side. I do take heavy loss but there still enough trooper around. The orks tend to be left with one or two unit left mainly being Lootas & tend to give up because there not much they can do, as the following turn I will have everthing ready to assault his last few Orks.

 

I have no Ord, only Temp weapon I have is Plasma Cannon from the Oblits & there twin linked flamer. Everthing just down to picking the right assault & not letting them assault you, make them a little weaker (S3) when attacking back.

 

 

Imperial Guards

 

With my 3x 10 man Rhino unit, I just have them go up the one flank trying to limit return fire power/make most there weapon out range (6 by 4 table), pop smoke while my Daemon Prince RUN!!!, Oblits just try pick of target say Leman Russ of what ever.

 

Then turn 2 get close enough with Rhinos units, jump out & rapid Fire Bolter with the 30 Chaos Marines, again hopeful the Termies come on by deep strike & just use Telport Homer. Turn 3, move everthing into assault but during the Guard turn try to use my Rhinos as sheild to protect them from True Line of sight.

 

But then again I not fought Guards that much in 5th Ed, only been once so far.

 

Nids

 

Only fought Nidzilla so far & that was back in Nov with my IW.

 

IP

[Captain Idaho]

Nice advice mate. Would you consider me fool hardy to run up a flank with a Landraider + Honour Guard + Chaplain + Chatper Master and hit them hard in the flank? If I used your method, what turn would you suggest I did such a thing? I was thinking on turn 2?

 

I would have to be careful though, as I have loyalists who have less attacks on the charge than Chaos Marines. I would probably adapt your method, with my loyalist firepower targetting their fastest units while my Landraider borne assault unit hammers the Ork attack with support of a Tactical in a Rhino.

[minigun762]

Yeah nice thinking with the anti-Ork counter attack.

So much of Ork tactics revolves around getting that charge in, if you can deny them it and you have enough bodies, you should be able to cleave through them and stop their momentum.

[theredcorsair]

three thunderfires can do anything

[minigun762]

three Vindicators can do anything

 

I think this is what you meant ^_^

[jeffersonian000]

three Vindicators can do anything

 

Except shoot past 24".

 

SJ

[DevianID]

three Vindicators can do anything

 

Except shoot past 24".

 

SJ

 

Or kill a monstrous creature with 4+ wounds in a shooting phase.

[Brother Tual]

Nice advice mate. Would you consider me fool hardy to run up a flank with a Landraider + Honour Guard + Chaplain + Chatper Master and hit them hard in the flank? If I used your method, what turn would you suggest I did such a thing? I was thinking on turn 2?

 

I would have to be careful though, as I have loyalists who have less attacks on the charge than Chaos Marines. I would probably adapt your method, with my loyalist firepower targetting their fastest units while my Landraider borne assault unit hammers the Ork attack with support of a Tactical in a Rhino.

 

No need to - just get in there and kill them all - Here is a batrep of a tourney game I had - 1500 points - I have 10 marines basic with a meltagun - a redeemer - 5 GKT + Khan (saevus) with 10 scouts in LSS + two ironclads - one with a heavy flamer - In these narrow corridors, their numbers will count for nothing... hang on - its an open table... crap - Still munched them the same - have a read - Link to the thread with other batreps

 

 

Bat. Rep. # 4

 

After a good nights sleep, day 2 - I was content with my previous day's effort - 1 big win - a draw and a loss - so when the draw came up on day 2 and I saw that my opponent had 180 orks + a str 10 warboss I did a little darky in my pants - seriously - 1500 points.. 181 orks? pass the ammo boys - one shot - one kill - I had 10 marines + 5 GKT + 10 scouts - out numbered 7 to 1 - http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p449/brother_tual/Picture013-1.jpg

 

This is the actual table we played on - It was sieze ground and pitched battle - 3 objectives - He put the first objective down near the hill - I put one on the opposite flank (at least one ork unit will be alone...) and he put the third smack bang in the center of the table -

 

I let him go first - WHAT! 180 orks! yes - most of my stuff is out of range first turn... by giving it to him he will walk into my range for me - sure - I will be in his range - but hey - orks and rockets?? cmon...

 

Anyway - if you look at his list, they are ALL shoota boys -

 

So - he deployed on the table side he was on - he didnt want to move his stuff - fair enough - He deployed 5 units with one unit of shoota boys with a big shoota and big choppa in reserve - (it didnt fit on the table)

 

I deployed my landraider far forward but to my left (he had one powerclaw on my far right, one slightly right of the center withthe war boss and one directly ahead - and one less duo of big shootas here too) and a LSS far left and on my base line (less big shoota action here)

 

He went first, I rolled the dice just for kicks, and didnt go first ( I didnt care, I didnt think I could win.. no matter what I did I would be swamped) SO - he surge forward in the tide fashion that is the orks - things shot.. things missed - no damage to me..

 

My first turn - I had to hit flank and steam roll up his line - my ironclads were not strong enough to break 30 orks in one go but hey - I cnt just give up, what would have poor Galatan thought? - Courage and honour! - I dropped both pods just infront of 30 boys.. one scattered back and into a section of blue rock things - the other scattered (the heavy flamer one!) even further back BEHIND the other one!! Great - I wont even get a chance to burn them! I moved the redeemer forward about 7 inches - just enough to not be charged - everything shot into the powerclaw armed mob on my left nearest to the ironclads - I took out about 7 or so -

 

Turn 2 - no reserves for him - His power claw unit moved up to charge my ironclad - A shoota unit with big choppa moved forward up next to them but bunched as his warboss unit moved from the off center right to my left and pushed the previous unit into a corridor type fashion - the other two mobs moved up and onto the far right objective - the power claw one moved slightly left.. not much more he could have done - he shot and did nadda to my landraider - charged in and did nothing to the ironclad - I killed a few and then a few more died from being fearless -

 

Turn 2 - no reserves - One Ironclad was lost to me - it would be stuck their all game - good thing though was that this big unit was just off the objective and as long as the ironclad lived, he couldnt claim it - (along with the two pods also on it!!) So my second one - which was blessed by a massive scatter moved up in a nice flaming postion on the corridored orks - my redeemer moved up - also ready to flame things - the GKT and Saevus got out - I heavy flamed one unit with the ironclad - 7 hits - 5 kills - one more from the melta - The redeemer lined up the warboss unit - 7 hits and kills - The GKT laid in some storm bolter love - a 6 more kills - The LSS also helped out - 2 more and the assault cannon took 3 - I charged in the GKT and Saevus - Saevus beheaded the warboss in one on one combat - I got a double head taking - So he now has a DP head and a warboss head - Sicarius would be jealous - The GKT did their stuff and killed ALL the remaining orks! 30 boys and the warboss in one go without any attack back.. glory to the ultramarines! The ironclads both punched on for no damage - every wound they cause is almost like causing two from them being fearless -

 

Turn 3 - His reserves still didnt show - He lined up 60 boys to shoot at the GKT - I was waiting for the waaaaggh to get atleast 30 of them in range of assault - but he didnt.. then I realised why.. shoota boys.... 120 shots... In an almighty racket and a battlefield covered in smoke - 5 GKT bit the dust - Saevus lost 2 wounds.. THATS why he has shoota boys... he used a calculator to count his dice! (he had 3 tubs of precounted dice) hmm - My ironclads punched on - not much to say -

 

My turn 3 - Scouts stayed away - cool - but my tacticals dropped in - I put them on the center objective but to my side of it - My redeemer charged forth but more right and infront of my marines (I had a plan) - time to burn some orks! 7 more hits - Saevus went to save my heavy flamer dread - try to get him out of combat - he slew 5 orks but git mauled himself - the ironclad broke 3 more for a massive win - lots of orks died - the other dread got immobilised - hmm - he was starting to break him - My LSS shot the same target as the Redeemer -

 

His turn 4 - His boys came on but he didnt know where to put them - right now I didnt threaten his right flank (I had not even shot at them yet) whilst his left was in tatters but his unit had nothing against the armour infront of them (big choppa and dual big shootas) so he went left to atleast try and hold me up and contest the objectives - My ironclad killed some more orks whilst the immobilised one died! BOOM - but took 6 orks with him! he had 8 orks left - he ran toward the center objective -

 

My turn 4 - My LSS scouts showed up and I immediately moved them to break the ironclad combat (alot of orks just showed on the horizon and I needed that heavy flamer back!) The redeemer picked up the missile launcher combat squad and parted the green tide as I drove right into them - flame storm love.. 7 hits again... The other 5 shot the guts out of the rogue orks in the center, but it was the shotgun scouts in the LSS that did the real damage - all but the nob fell - This is just before my assault phase -

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p449/brother_tual/Picture016-1.jpg

 

But I like this angle -

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p449/brother_tual/Picture017-1.jpg

 

its like moses parting the sea... I broke the last of the orks in combat -

 

His turn 5 - The lone nob chased to redeemer - His big unit that showed up waaagh past my dread and at the scouts... The other unit I just drove into also waaagh but didnt make it past the dread - The others had some shots at my 5 man unit but missed (he rolled shockingly bad - he got - out of 60 shots - about 10 hit and 2 wounds)

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p449/brother_tual/Picture018-1.jpg

 

my scouts are not looking to happy at this point...

 

My turn 5 - My redeemer powered on forward - the boys got out - 7 hits again from the redeemer - the assault cannon added in some hurt - my center unit moved onto the objective- The drop pods capped the lone nob -

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p449/brother_tual/Picture021-1.jpg

 

and with the 20 rapid fire shots - the LSS scouts +the pod + the redeemer I reduced him to this in one turn..

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p449/brother_tual/Picture019-1.jpg

 

I had awesome dice rolls - At this point I had 2 objectives and he had one - his was contested (2 pods and a LSS) whilst I had one and one contesed by the rabble that I just shot to bits.. one shot - one kill style -

 

The game ended here - but to win - he needed to kill two pods and a LSS + break my ironclad and then somehow get to my center objective and kill the redeemer - otherwise, I still would have had one up on him as I contested both outside objectives - Thats the only reason why I got the tacticals out of the landraider - because I couldnt loose even if they died and its more fun this way -

 

Anyway - I think he ended up with 40 orks left on the table - most were on an objective near where he butched my scouts..

 

Very fun game - very cinematic with the redeemer single handedly parting the tide and burning it on the way through ... I can just imagine the smell - Galatan would have been proud - actually - I might name my redeemer Galatan -

[Captain Idaho]

I see. So the moral of the story is not to be afraid of the enemy numbers and let that put you off your game plan! I was just thinking that the most common Ork armies in a GT to face are actually the smaller ones with more elite and mechanised units, so learning from your games, I shouldn't have as much a problem as I wont need to kill as many of the blighters!

 

Battle report really ilustrated your point nicely too mate :)

[Brother Tual]

thinking that the most common Ork armies in a GT to face are actually the smaller ones with more elite and mechanised units

 

well there is a batrep in the same thread already linked - in-which I battled it out with a 5 dread ork list with three trukks and deff shoota things... Have a read of that one mate - I wont post it here as it is off topic - something to be weary of though - is that a HUGE hoard like orks with almost everything scoring, they will do very well normally in objective games - they can take every single one and thus at worst contest everything - You need to be able to clear them, which is no easy thing to do - I was lucky in that I could push him back and I created a nice little pocket for my tactical marines to sit in with out any contest.. only ONE ork crossed the halfway mark - I have become quite the shepard with my list - its absolutely vital with a small list to be able to contain your enemy - as soon as the break your controlled space you will be swamped and attacked from all the wrong angles and thus loose models and that all important control - My original lists did this at range in 4th ed. and my tactica linked in my signature details this - but now I have grown fond of applying the same ideals up close and personal -

 

EDIT - his list would be good at kill points too - only 7 kill points total - and each kill point is 31 T4 wounds!! If the above battle was kill points I would have lost - I lost 5 kill points and killed 4...

[minigun762]

Brother Tual, how effective (if at all) did you find winning combat and running them down?

Its difficult to get Orks below 10 if they start as large enough squads, but once they're no longer Fearless, it seems like the insta-killing involved in winning combat is the best way to remove squads and stop them from being a tarpit or nusance.

[Brother Tual]

GKT cant sweeping advance - BUT if they do become not fearless and do break they are below half str and cant rally (30 being the original number) so they are as good as dead anyway -

 

The thing I noticed in this game and other games against orks is that whilst you can be 'trapped' its not a hopeless case - even 3 attack per turn can break a unit over the course of the game - Them being fearless effectively doubles your kill rate (6+ save) and when you factor in 4 or 6 kills a turn, the hoard starts to thin rather rapidly (I am talking about the ironclads here) With the GKT - they slew everything in that one phase - there was no break test - and secondly, my unit has khan on foot in it so benefits from the hit and run rule - very hard to pin this unit - very very handy ability to have with an uber unit - nothing worse than getting looked in combat with something you cant hurt with your 500 point core kill unit -

 

I actually think orks get slightly stronger in combat around the 9/10 model mark - they dont auto take hits anymore and providing they dont have a massive modifier they have a high LD value - and mostly - to my detriment -they have boss poles so re-roll failed LD checks -

[GreatEscape_13]

Devastator Squad with 4 missile launchers. Good anti-horde clearing power yet can help with vehicles/mechanized lists too.

 

Cheers.

[DevianID]

I still stand by the 10 man termie squad with dual cyclones, but Brother Tual's use of iron clads mean that for the price of my 10 termie squad you can get 3 iron clads, and as he showed the iron clads do very well versus orks.

[Captain Idaho]

Why not try both?! :lol:

 

Imagine the look on opponent's faces when you plump down 3 Iron Clads and 10 Terminators at the begining of the game!

[Brother Swift]

all i know is when your facing a horde army make sure you have template weapons to shoot especially on pie plates and flamers. and wait till the last moment to get into assault because if you get over ran then your going to not have a fun time

[LorgarXVII17]

I face horde armies almost every game I play. Orks, bugs, guard. Personally, I love playing them. My Word Bearers tear them to shreds every time. It may sound crazy, but close combat is your friend, especially when against an infantry guard army. It doesnt work quite as well against orks or nids though. Due to my insane luck (the gods bless my army, I guess) I happen to lose very little against these horde armies. Ripping a giant infantry army to shreds is great fun.

 

How to beat them? Hmm... shoot, shoot, shoot. Melta guns are good for destroying the few vehicles they tend to have, and when they lose their heavy support its quite easy to isolate and destroy each mob of infantry.

 

My warhammer games are quite unique, so I somehow doubt what ive said here will help anyone...sorry. Lorgar doesnt help much of anyone anymore...

 

Edit: oh yeah, flamers are good too.

[LardO'Blood]

Whirlwinds, vindicators and redeemers. Need I say more? Never tried it but it seems a venerable with twin linked heavy flamers and a heavy flamer would be pretty good.

Off topic: What happens to twin linked heavy flamers if you add vulkan?