jubei124 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Over the past couple weeks I have seen a few posts in our sections where people think that BT characters benefit from the retinue rule on P.48 of the rulebook if they take a command squad. I don't play this way and I think that some of my brethern are confused as to how our characters work in our army. So I figured I would post the question here so for everyone to discuss rather than starting it in the BT forums and having it end up here. So do Black Templar Characters benefit from the retinue rule? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 No, they don't. The bottom of p.22 in C:BT states that characters in squads behaves as IC's in CC and so can be singled out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1892081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 The bottom of p.22 in C:BT states that characters in squads behaves as IC's in CC and so can be singled out. This is exactly how I see it but some people seem to think that if we take command squads the squad is considered a retinue. Link #1 Link #2 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1892271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 The bottom of p.22 in C:BT states that characters in squads behaves as IC's in CC and so can be singled out. This is exactly how I see it but some people seem to think that if we take command squads the squad is considered a retinue. Link #1 Link #2 Well they would be right in that it IS a retinue, however while enjoying all retinue rules a BT character has a little extra rule added on top forcing them to act as IC's during CC. I don't see any other way of reading it than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1892286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I agree, the retinue would protect them, except the BT characters have an extra rule that makes them refuse to hide behind their flunkies... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1892384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonoshi Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I also believe the command squads do not protect our ICs. I only see one way to argue it as a retinue. It takes more time to argue it than to play the game, so I choose to play without it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1894316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Well, it IS a retinue, but thanks to BT special rules, the retinue provides no shelter for the ICs in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1894363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Caedus Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Well, it IS a retinue, but thanks to BT special rules, the retinue provides no shelter for the ICs in CC. And so, the answer is: since they are a retinue, they only count as 1 KP, but your character can still be singled out in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1894986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Well, it IS a retinue, but thanks to BT special rules, the retinue provides no shelter for the ICs in CC. And so, the answer is: since they are a retinue, they only count as 1 KP, but your character can still be singled out in CC. Uhm no, retinues and their characters are each a KP, in fact the annihilation mission specifically mentions that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1895115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Caedus Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Hmm, so it does. I suppose my LGS is playing that rule a little wrong then, at my store they only count as 2 KP if they are two separate squads, if the IC is an upgrade char, then it's only 1 KP. At least, that's the way my store plays it, my bad. (please note, our little house rule has no impact on the official GW rules, nor am I trying to force those upon anyone, just made a mistake) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1899388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 So where does that leave the Black Templar Command Squad Sgt for PA or Termies, or Specialist characters? While not ICs by the Black Templar Codex they are upgrade characters, much as a HQ/IC would be considered in a retinue by the Big Book right? Couldnt you also count them as BT characters in this definition for the purposes of singling out for HtH? Rules Lawyer solve my headache ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1903776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedric Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 p. 22 of C:BT defines BT Characters as Commanders, EC and Chaplains. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1903784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Yes, but arent Upgrade characters "characters" too? And by all rights we shouldnt have Sgts. (entry was cut and pasted straight from different codex for Command Squad) to begin with but it doesnt state independent characters, the the HQ trio, just "characters". BT CommSquad Sgts have access to the armory and count as an Upgrade Character to a command squad by the BRB, and are counted as characters by definition. If the specific HQ units in a Command Squad count as a Upgrade character and can be singled out, does that also mean the Sgt. can be singled out as well? Or any other "characters"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1904588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Yes, but arent Upgrade characters "characters" too? And by all rights we shouldnt have Sgts. (entry was cut and pasted straight from different codex for Command Squad) to begin with but it doesnt state independent characters, the the HQ trio, just "characters". BT CommSquad Sgts have access to the armory and count as an Upgrade Character to a command squad by the BRB, and are counted as characters by definition. If the specific HQ units in a Command Squad count as a Upgrade character and can be singled out, does that also mean the Sgt. can be singled out as well? Or any other "characters"? No because they were never IC's to begin with. The rule goes "... does not stop being an IC for the purposes..." In this case they never were one to begin with and can't stop being an IC. That's not even counting as to how the beginning of that section covers what follows those rules as Cedric mentioned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1904727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Bah, I am never listening to snarky rules lawyers ever again (well, you guys excluded). So what you guys are telling me (which I was misinformed about the way the upgrade character thing works obviously) is that the 5th edition character anything has nothing to do with nothing in the C:BT. Doesnt apply at all correct? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1904868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 So what you guys are telling me (which I was misinformed about the way the upgrade character thing works obviously) is that the 5th edition character anything has nothing to do with nothing in the C:BT. Doesnt apply at all correct? Huh?? :jaw: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1904997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 So what you guys are telling me (which I was misinformed about the way the upgrade character thing works obviously) is that the 5th edition character anything has nothing to do with nothing in the C:BT. Doesnt apply at all correct? Huh?? :P I think he means to say "the thing where retinues turn IC's into upgrade characters, doesn't apply at all to BT". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1905101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 I think he means to say "the thing where retinues turn IC's into upgrade characters, doesn't apply at all to BT". Could be, I just saw that post and it hurt my brain. What I wonder about is the BT techmarine he isn't listed as a 'character' on page 22 and our TM are still IC's, so if we have a techmarine with some servitors would he count as a upgraded character until the servitors are killed? Or does he work like our other IC's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1905120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I think he means to say "the thing where retinues turn IC's into upgrade characters, doesn't apply at all to BT". Could be, I just saw that post and it hurt my brain. What I wonder about is the BT techmarine he isn't listed as a 'character' on page 22 and our TM are still IC's, so if we have a techmarine with some servitors would he count as a upgraded character until the servitors are killed? Or does he work like our other IC's. Honestly I would say here, the rules aren't clear enough. Pure raw I would say he gets to enjoy his retinue to it's full extent. Logic wise I would say he works the same way. RAITTAI (Rules as I think they are intended)wise, I would say Templars should benefit fully from the retinue rule, as that little clarification was written to clarify a 3RD/4TH rule so as not to accidentally assume they weren't IC's and should have no bearing on 5th's version of the rule. Then again I also believe BT's shouldn't have to make TP tests amongst a slew of other things, but I generally adhere to them as it is the convention that everyone tries to stick to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1906040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Honestly I would say here, the rules aren't clear enough. Pure raw I would say he gets to enjoy his retinue to it's full extent. I agree with you here. Logic wise I would say he works the same way.RAITTAI (Rules as I think they are intended)wise, I would say Templars should benefit fully from the retinue rule, as that little clarification was written to clarify a 3RD/4TH rule so as not to accidentally assume they weren't IC's and should have no bearing on 5th's version of the rule. This I have to disagree with, if we were able to benefit fully from the retinue rule our command squads would be to overpowered IMO. Now how about our Recusliam Command Squad. Lets say you take a Chap and add 3 servitors to him, they join a crusader squad(or some other unit), they get into CC, now would the servitors act as a seperate unit also, making it 3 units in the squad (chaplin, servitors and crusader squad). I think this is how it works meaning that the servitors actually have to be in btb to attack and be attacked just like the chap and the CS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1907273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Now how about our Recusliam Command Squad. Lets say you take a Chap and add 3 servitors to him, they join a crusader squad(or some other unit), they get into CC, now would the servitors act as a seperate unit also, making it 3 units in the squad (chaplin, servitors and crusader squad). I think this is how it works meaning that the servitors actually have to be in btb to attack and be attacked just like the chap and the CS. Well first off, I think it would be nice if they had been a bit more clear about how that odd group of servitors works in CC. Secondly, reading between the lines of my sentence you will find it says : "GW should hurry up and get the codex in line with the current ruleset already" Lastly(I love abusing the English language), I don't see the retinue rule having that huge an impact that the squad would suddenly be overpowered. More powerful of course, but not some invincible murder machine just by having a non targetable chaplain. Just a regular brand murder machine with frills^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1907359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymirl Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Secondly, reading between the lines of my sentence you will find it says : "GW should hurry up and get the codex in line with the current ruleset already" You don't want that! They'll take away your awesome chaplians and terminator honours, take a wound off your techmarines, stop termi squads with two assault cannons in only 5 men, ban 6 man las/plas squads and uninstall the machine spirits from your vindicators! You're much better off keeping your head down and staying quite I reckon... :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1908487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souchan Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Secondly, reading between the lines of my sentence you will find it says : "GW should hurry up and get the codex in line with the current ruleset already" You don't want that! They'll take away your awesome chaplians and terminator honours, take a wound off your techmarines, stop termi squads with two assault cannons in only 5 men, ban 6 man las/plas squads and uninstall the machine spirits from your vindicators! You're much better off keeping your head down and staying quite I reckon... :P Honestly, I want all that :P As long as I get the good stuff too, I'm really curious how'd they go new dex style with the Templars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1908495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Well that is my point Jubei. The BT codex is full of contradictions. The BRB is the only reference we have to what is an Upgrade character and what isnt. If you take the RAW full-on rules lawyer approach, one would say that when a character joins a unit then Special Rules are not applied. Of course that can be taken VERY literally. Common sense or what you think should be need not apply. Remember the 1st rule on the BT character thing is about characters leaving and attaching to be referred to the BRB. not Codex: BT. What is a character? IC? Upgrade? BRB pretty much says IC loses IC status when joining a "retinue" unit (which is exactly what a command squad is by BT character rule 2) and later on says that ICs joining these units in the BRB are upgrade characters. In that same Attach/Detatch squad when talking about Special Rules and losing them when joining a suqad, the BRB I believe doesnt use the word "Universal Special Rules" just Special rules. Which also includes the base rules about ICs, Chapter Tactics or whatevers. Technically Upgrade characters stop being ICs for all intents and purposes, yet Codex BT never uses the word IC. Just "Character(s)". Then you have the EC with the always an "IC" rule which I really think is what the RAI was made for, but it creates a schism in how the rules are played between the BRB and the C:BT. It is all a big messball. None of it really makes sense because we have characters who can have a Retinue and attach the retinue to a unit. We have Sgts technically, who are upgrade characters but are they characters? Techmarines who have retinues yet arent subject to any character rules aside from the IC listing. So this is why I am confused. It is so circular an argument. Bah. Not even worth the breath really. They need to write some real FAQs with rule stuff. Would be nice B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1910578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jubei124 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 If you take the RAW full-on rules lawyer approach, one would say that when a character joins a unit then Special Rules are not applied. Uh, check page 74 of the rulebook. It tells you how how to determine which special rules are lost if an IC joins a squad. Remember the 1st rule on the BT character thing is about characters leaving and attaching to be referred to the BRB. not Codex: BT. What is a character? IC? Upgrade? BRB pretty much says IC loses IC status when joining a "retinue" unit (which is exactly what a command squad is by BT character rule 2) and later on says that ICs joining these units in the BRB are upgrade characters. I'm not disputing the fact that a BT command squad is a retinue, it is one. The problem is that BT characters (see P.22 of our codex under the BT character section if you're not sure what a BT character is) who are leading or attached to a squad do not stop being a IC for the purposes of close combat. In that same Attach/Detatch squad when talking about Special Rules and losing them when joining a suqad, the BRB I believe doesnt use the word "Universal Special Rules" just Special rules. Which also includes the base rules about ICs, Chapter Tactics or whatevers. Look at the last sentence of that section on P.48, take note that it tells you to refer to the Universial special rules section for more details. Technically Upgrade characters stop being ICs for all intents and purposes, yet Codex BT never uses the word IC. Just "Character(s)". Correct and this point you just made is why our BT characters CANNOT benefit from the retinue rule. A BT character is listed as being BT Commanders,Chaplins and the EC. OK if, like you stated, an Upgrade Character stops being an IC for all intents and purposes then our BT characters can never be an upgrade character during CC. Why, because our rules tell us that he does not stop being a IC for the purposes of close combat. If he does not stop being an IC, then how can he be a UC. They need to write some real FAQs with rule stuff. Would be nice Honestly some better FAQ's would be nice but this doesn't need to be in it. The rules are clear on this issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/161158-black-templars-retinues/#findComment-1911055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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